Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

Ah, I certainly wish this was an easier topic.

We all know Moses was a believer.

Yet Moses acted in unbelief, was not allowed into the promised land and was even killed because of unbelief.

Who thinks Moses is now or is going to hell?

s

 

[bottomofsandal]

No, I haven't. Because I don't base my entire theology around single verses taken out of their context.



Indeed. This does not touch my point.



True, but it does not follow from this, that anyone who WAS a Christian, and then became apostate, was never a Christian in the first place.
What about carnal Christians and purpose driven zombies ?



I consider the entirety of the Scriptures, including 1 John 2 (which does not speak to what we're talking about now, btw). Because, as I said, I don't build my theology around cherry-picked passages that suit my argument at any given time.



No, the child rejects it.



Indeed. God does not suddenly go: "Nah, I grow tired with him/her. They can fry for all I care". But that's not what I've been saying, either!



No one. But we can crawl out of it and jump to our dooms, if we so choose.



Some people become apostates: They no longer believe that there is any need to be "saved", because they no longer believe that there is anything to be saved FROM, or TO, or anyone to DO the saving.

The:
"You can't lose your salvation. Apostates were never really Christians in the first place"-rant is just as ridiculous (and infinitely more harmful) than the "No true Scotsman"-one.

So you subscribe to the fishbowl exodus theory ?

Man grows weary of God and abandons the faith.

Proves the guy was not a fish (sheep) to begin with !



Jesus never leaving us means not abandoning us. Jesus says His sheep hear and know His voice. So when does a saint loses his hearing and who causes that to happen ? God says He has given us all things, this includes salvation. It is God's salvation, salvation is of The Lord. God's salvation is to the end.



OTOH, if you save yourself you must keep yourself. How much labor for how long how often and at what is your salvation status ? Not knowing is not God's way. If you can fall away, then this was not salvation to begin with...

 

[EddardStark]

So you subscribe to the fishbowl exodus theory ?

Man grows weary of God and abandons the faith.

Proves the guy was not a fish (sheep) to begin with !

No, I do not subscribe to this nonsense.

OTOH, if you save yourself you must keep yourself.

I never said you do. I leave THAT nonsense to RCs, Southern Baptists, and the like.

If you can fall away, then this was not salvation to begin with...

Non sequitur

 

[Albion]

Jesus never leaving us means not abandoning us. Jesus says His sheep hear and know His voice. So when does a saint loses his hearing and who causes that to happen ?

In all of this back and forth, THIS ^ may be the big question.

The New Testament repeatedly gives us the information that God/Jesus is faithful and that he will not abandon his own, that no one can take them out of Jesus' hand, that we ought not worry about it, etc. etc.

...and yet, there are Christians who nevertheless argue that Satan will succeed in besting God in the struggle for the souls of men.

What sense does that make?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

If you can fall away, then this was not salvation to begin with...

If it isn't salvation then it isn't much of a fall. I have to ask: Fall away from what if not salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

Brave words but unfortunate. The most that can be said is that the Bible appears to both support Eternal Security and, in other places, support the idea that God will let his disciples fall to Satan.

in Gen 3 we find that Adam who is called "the son of God" in the Gospels - is allowed to "fall to Satan" - as in become actually "lost" and in need of salvation. No speculation needed.

In Matt 18 we see the one who is "fully forgiven" experience forgiveness revoked due to his own free will choice not to forgive others just as he has been fully forgiven. Christ then explicitly applies this same warning to his own disciples. Again -- no speculation needed to get the point of that warning.

Other texts such as we find in John 10 state that even though these other texts are true - and we may of our own free will make such bad choices with the bad consequence that follows - that does not mean that Satan or anyone else has the power to force us out of God's hands against our will -- and with a little bit of effort in the area of extreme inference some here in favor of OSAS traditions could possibly get John 10 to exactly contradict the other clear texts in Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, 1cor 6 etc.


Which means this entire subject is not the hard/difficult rocket-science tough puzzle to figure out that some have proposed.

In fact - it pretty much only works one way.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Albion]

Which means this entire subject is not the hard/difficult rocket-science tough puzzle to figure out that some have proposed.

As I wrote, we can look to verses that seem to support Eternal Security and also to others that seem to suggest the possibility of falling away. You have sought out the ones that fall into the latter category, I see.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by bottomofsandal

If you can fall away, then this was not salvation to begin with...
​

If it isn't salvation then it isn't much of a fall. I have to ask: Fall away from what if not salvation?

Iindeed you can take the real - and very serious warnings of Gal 5:4, Matt 18, and Ezek 18 hopefully "Water them down" in service to the tradition of OSAS -- making them into the rather insignificant warning about the lost - being in danger of becoming "lostER".

The idea there is that God and all those who hear and heed those warning texts will be happy to find that the lost who burn in hell are happily burning without the horrific alternative of being "lostER" in hell - because they all heeded those warnings to avoid becoming LostER -- when you have the wonderful opportunity to just be "lost" and go to hell without being lostER!.

That alternate reality is the one that OSAS arguments sometimes need to invent to turn these very real and serious Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, Romans 11 arguments into "nothing warning" that do not even deal with so serious a subject as 'becoming severed from Christ" or "falling from Grace" --

They can somehow be "imagined" to merely refer to the lost-vs-lostER great subject of the OSAS tradition not found at all in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As I wrote, we can look to verses that seem to support Eternal Security and also to others that seem to suggest the possibility of falling away. You have sought out the ones that fall into the latter category, I see.

on the contrary - I point to both - because John 10 is often used to support OSAS.

 

[BobRyan]

Ah, I certainly wish this was an easier topic.

We all know Moses was a believer.

Yet Moses acted in unbelief, was not allowed into the promised land and was even killed because of unbelief.

Who thinks Moses is now or is going to hell?

s

Moses died, Elijah and Enoch did not die.

Paul died as well.

The fact that someone dies before going on to some more wonderful task - is not proof that they died as a lost person (a point that many Arminians will happily point out.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

on the contrary - I point to both - because John 10 is often used to support OSAS.

The alternative to OSAS is [whatever given] list of personal performance for retention criteria.

At that point faith has fallen into being law with penalty. Could have just as well stuck to the law. At least it's a visible measure on the outside of the cup. No need to even add faith to the mix. Can't measure it anyway.

 

[BobRyan]

In all of this back and forth, THIS ^ may be the big question.

The New Testament repeatedly gives us the information that God/Jesus is faithful and that he will not abandon his own,

1. "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11.

2. Adam and Eve were not "abandoned" so as to become lost -rather they chose sin.

that no one can take them out of Jesus' hand,

So then -- John 10 again.

And the point in John 10 is that while Matt 18 is true --yet that choice that results in forgiveness revoked - does not mean that apart from such choices, Satan or some other outside evil force can overpower God and wrench the saints from the hand of God.

Those who need to turn the story of Adam and Even into "Satan besting God" are going too far in service to the man made tradition of OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bottomofsandal]

In all of this back and forth, THIS ^ may be the big question.

The New Testament repeatedly gives us the information that God/Jesus is faithful and that he will not abandon his own, that no one can take them out of Jesus' hand, that we ought not worry about it, etc. etc.

...and yet, there are Christians who nevertheless argue that Satan will succeed in besting God in the struggle for the souls of men.

What sense does that make?

Nope, it makes no sense to insist on losing one's salvation.

There seems greater effort to teach losing rather than keeping to the end.



We need to be teaching this temporary salvation to the new convert.

After repentance, confession, baptism, _____ whatever is done.

The babe in Christ needs to be educated on salvation's uncertainty:



1) salvation is not permanent, secure, or eternal

2) God gave you salvation, but might take it back at anytime

3) disregard the promises in The Bible

4) The Holy Spirit might abandon you without warning

5) you are IN Christ, accepted in The Beloved, but that can change



Why would anyone want any part of this type of salvation ?

 

[BobRyan]

Frankly - OSAS simply does not survive a careful review and acceptance of scripture.




Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
This application should not be so foreign to the objective unbiased non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.

Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

The alternative to OSAS is [whatever given] list of personal performance for retention criteria.

At that point faith has fallen into being law with penalty. Could have just as well stuck to the law. At least it's a visible measure on the outside of the cup. No need to even add faith to the mix. Can't measure it anyway.

So then you propose a rejection of the Bible teaching on falling from Grace because to accept the clear teaching of the Bible in that regard would mean we would have no way to reject Romans 2:13-16 ?

Or are you saying that the kind of Gospel where Matt 18 and Romans 2 are true - is not at all compatible with grace?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bottomofsandal]

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Where does one go when they fall from grace ?

They fall back to The Law. That's what the Galatians did.

 

[Albion]

Frankly - OSAS simply does not survive a careful review and acceptance of scripture.

It looks like nothing will change your mind now that you've selected just which verses you want to believe. My opinion is that I and others have made a strong case that you are just not going to listen to or try to rebut, so what else is there to add?

 

[squint]

So then you propose a rejection of the Bible teaching on falling from Grace because to accept the clear teaching of the Bible in that regard would mean we would have no way to reject Romans 2:13-16 ?

I accept the validity of every jot and tittle of the LAW and believe it is fully effective and valid to this day.

Yet I arrive to the conclusion that I remain a sinner, proven so under the law and believe the presentation of being a LEGAL SINNER is an absurd notion.

Hopefully you get the picture that some are not interested in playing hypocritical games with the LAW by claims of being temporarily sinless or a legally obedient sinner?

One can be fully for and in behalf of the LAW and still agree it is against us as sinners.

Or are you saying that the kind of Gospel where Matt 18 and Romans 2 are true - is not at all compatible with grace?

All the external performances in the world will not make one sinner sinless.

Am I lying?

The minute I say I'm legal or sinless under the law I would be LYING so I can't play that religious game that SDAers play with the Law, as much as I do love the Law and uphold it.

s

 

[ShouldaWouldaCoulda]

One of the best methods to refute those who teach the false doctrine that condemns eternal security in Jesus Christ, is to ask them to show where Jesus himself said salvation in him is temporary.




Because those who argue against OSAS, an argument that can never be supported by scripture itself, are saying exactly that.

Nope, it makes no sense to insist on losing one's salvation.

There seems greater effort to teach losing rather than keeping to the end.



We need to be teaching this temporary salvation to the new convert.

After repentance, confession, baptism, _____ whatever is done.

The babe in Christ needs to be educated on salvation's uncertainty:



1) salvation is not permanent, secure, or eternal

2) God gave you salvation, but might take it back at anytime

3) disregard the promises in The Bible

4) The Holy Spirit might abandon you without warning

5) you are IN Christ, accepted in The Beloved, but that can change



Why would anyone want any part of this type of salvation ?

 

[bottomofsandal]

Frankly - OSAS simply does not survive a careful review and acceptance of scripture.

How often have you lost your salvation ?

I am not saying you are unsaved or questioning your salvation.

I am not questioning your salvation, you are secure in Christ.



You are against OSAS, therefore when are you not saved ?

This is a legitimate questioned based upon your pov.

Who better to ask about losing salvation than one who believes it ?

 

[squint]

One of the best methods to refute those who teach the false doctrine that condemns eternal security in Jesus Christ, is to ask them to show where Jesus himself said salvation in him is temporary.

Because those who argue against OSAS, an argument that can never be supported by scripture itself, are saying exactly that.

I think you kind of soiled your slant when earlier in this thread it was said that those who do not hold OSAS are not saved.

Some people need to constantly question their salvation imho. I know a few drug addicts who, if they do not hold their habit under threat of possible HELL, would fall into it again, so I can't really blame them for being on their guard.

I also think it's against the rules here to make such claims (of being not saved,) even though every non-OSAS claimant does have that claim at the heart of their sects views at least as a possibility.

Ambiguity reigns.

s