Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

I think it is because those Christians to whom you refer elect to obey their church first. And they cower when thinking to ask their minister questions. Often enough because that minister will charge they are committing an offense for daring to, question God.

They're not questioning God. They're questioning that minister that tells them they can lose their salvation. It is a false teacher, that pastor who refuses to allow his parishioners to ask questions.
That is his duty! If he is anointed to be a pastor, his is obligated to teach the word! And the only way to teach the word is to be ready to answer the questions those who are student of the word have.

Those who believe they can lose their salvation are being led by false teachers. And at the peril of their immortal soul. However, it is not just that false teacher who is responsible for this. It is that sheep, that parishioner, who does not read the scriptures for themselves so as to realize they are being lied to in this regard.

Eternal life!
The pastor who lies and says someone can lose their eternal salvation is demonstrating they know nothing of Jesus. Nor do they know the meaning of, eternal.

But they do know how to keep the sheep beholding to that false teacher. When that teacher scares the ignorant in his flock who take him at his word and think they can lose what Jesus said he died to give them for all eternity. Salvation!


1 John 5:11-13

John 5:24

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Jesus is not a liar.
But those who teach salvation can be lost are. Anyone who loses their salvation never had it in the first place. Scripture tells us it is as simple as that.

I'm confused here, if someone who is saved can't loose their salvation, then how can they believing they can loose their salvation imperil their souls. That is a contradiction if I ever saw one.

 

[Erose]

Dodging what?

Don't you know that the unbelievers are blinded by the god of this world? Doesn't your sect teach you that?

And since when did argumentum ad populous or numerum become the arbiter of truth?

Numbers of brain dead followers mean nothing.

If you did not want to dialog any longer there are better ways of saying it.

Perfect example, I asked one simple question, what denomination you are part of, and you're not even willing to do that.

 

[Erose]

Well there is a few things I have learned here in this thread, and thanks to everyone who has participated. I've learned to my surprise actually, that there seems to be a good varieties of understandings of OSAS, which makes conversing about it sometimes difficult.

The second thing I learned is that those who adhere to OSAS do so mostly due to emotional reasons.

Third point is that OSAS folks are terrified of Works, so it seems that even keeping the commandments should be avoided, so that the pretense of earning one's salvation is avoided at all costs. Thus sinning is better than keeping the commandments.

The last point is that this false idea, cannot be justified from Scripture without ignoring a whole lot of other Scripture.

Still haven't learned yet why God needs slaves. Since there are some new OSASers here posting perhaps one can answer that question.

 

[squint]

The second thing I learned is that those who adhere to OSAS do so mostly due to emotional reasons.

funny.

Third point is that OSAS folks are terrified of Works, so it seems that even keeping the commandments should be avoided,

again funny.

The primary difference in sight is that OSAS believers largely reject Gospel forms that turn Gospel into LAW type and PERFORMANCE requirements with PENALTY attached,

also knowing that no sinner saves themselves.

There is also some funny notion that if our Savior actually saves without the PERFORMER meriting their salvation they are somehow robots.

 

[squint]

If you did not want to dialog any longer there are better ways of saying it.

Perfect example, I asked one simple question, what denomination you are part of, and you're not even willing to do that.

I don't wear a brand of a country or some dead man's name for my faith.

Sorry if you don't get it or use that pettiness in a dialog as if it matters.

I do adhere to the Nicene Creed and that's all you need to know for this forum.

 

[EddardStark]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved,

Because it isn't true.

even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal?

This is true in the right sense, but not in the sense you mean.

That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

Indeed, but you can reject it. The Bible is full of examples of this. So is the reality of the world around us: Apostates aplenty. "Oh, but they were never really saved" is an easy cop-out, and the Christian version of the classical "No true Scotsman"-argument.

it must be somewhat troublesome to think that backsliding will result in you becoming detached from the Lord.

Backsliding itself does not do that. It can RESULT in that, that's certain. As the Scriptures also point out. The alternative is the position of the antinomians: "Hey, it doesn't matter how you live or what you do. Just do whatever the fudge you want to".

It seems like it would hinder someone's growth in the Lord rather than promote obedience.

Define "obedience". If by that you mean "becoming better and better at fulfilling the commandments of the Law as required by God", then such "obedience" belongs in rabbinical Judaism, not Christianity (or Messianic Judaism for that matter).

The thing is that God chooses us and we respond. He doesn't let go of us once we're a Child of God.

Indeed. But He will not stay where He is not welcome.

Sometimes it seems like such denominations haven't viewed the Bible in its entire scope, interpreting. What is your take on this subject?

On the contrary. It is because we (Lutherans) have viewed the Bible in its entire scope, that we reject OSAS for the unbiblical nonsense it is.

 

[Erose]

funny.

again funny.

The primary difference in sight is that OSAS believers largely reject Gospel forms that turn Gospel into LAW type and PERFORMANCE requirements with PENALTY attached,

also knowing that no sinner saves themselves.

There is also some funny notion that if our Savior actually saves without the PERFORMER meriting their salvation they are somehow robots.

Thank you for confirming my points. Emotion rules.

 

[Erose]

I don't wear a brand of a country or some dead man's name for my faith.

Sorry if you don't get it or use that pettiness in a dialog as if it matters.

I do adhere to the Nicene Creed and that's all you need to know for this forum.

Explains the ideas proposed.

 

[shturt678s]

Because it isn't true.



This is true in the right sense, but not in the sense you mean.



Indeed, but you can reject it. The Bible is full of examples of this. So is the reality of the world around us: Apostates aplenty. "Oh, but they were never really saved" is an easy cop-out, and the Christian version of the classical "No true Scotsman"-argument.



Backsliding itself does not do that. It can RESULT in that, that's certain. As the Scriptures also point out. The alternative is the position of the antinomians: "Hey, it doesn't matter how you live or what you do. Just do whatever the fudge you want to".



Define "obedience". If by that you mean "becoming better and better at fulfilling the commandments of the Law as required by God", then such "obedience" belongs in rabbinical Judaism, not Christianity (or Messianic Judaism for that matter).



Indeed. But He will not stay where He is not welcome.



On the contrary. It is because we (Lutherans) have viewed the Bible in its entire scope, that we reject OSAS for the unbiblical nonsense it is.

Couldn't have said it any better.

Old, of a lower paygrade, Jack

 

[Albion]

On the contrary. It is because we (Lutherans) have viewed the Bible in its entire scope, that we reject OSAS for the unbiblical nonsense it is.

Brave words but unfortunate. The most that can be said is that the Bible appears to both support Eternal Security and, in other places, support the idea that God will let his disciples fall to Satan.

That's the most accurate answer, although I'd be the first to admit that it's not nearly as popular in some quarters as an impassioned affirmation or, OTOH, rejection, complete with a "nonsense" thrown in there somewhere.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Indeed, but you can reject it. The Bible is full of examples of this. So is the reality of the world around us: Apostates aplenty. "Oh, but they were never really saved" is an easy cop-out, and the Christian version of the classical "No true Scotsman"-

You have conveniently discarded Matthew 7 !

Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord"...

Lotsa pretenders and wannabes in the sunday country club.

What about carnal Christians and purpose driven zombies ?

What about 1 John 2 ? You need to consider the passages.




Since salvation is a non-returnable gift from God...

You must believe God takes it back from His child ?

This gift and call of God are irrevocable.

Who will snatch us from God's hand ?




Please don't say people no longer want salvation.

 

[squint]

Some believers come to realize that X number of sects all with varying 'supposedly truthful' constructs are hung in place with threats to their adherents salvation.

It's an odd way of enforcing brand loyalty.

 

[bottomofsandal]

The second thing I learned is that those who adhere to OSAS do so mostly due to emotional reasons.

What emotion causes one to believe in OSAS ?

 

[Albion]

What emotion causes one to believe in OSAS ?

I agree with you. The comment you are responding to was most likely just thrown out there for something to say and needn't be taken seriously. But if we were to do so, pride, the idea that man must -- and can -- save himself is far more common or "instinctive" a human emotion than trusting in God is. Anyone can understand that.

 

[ShouldaWouldaCoulda]

I would make the observation that those of us who have been discussing OSAS as valid would only be reinforced by those who argue Jesus is a brand!

Jesus did not found Christianity. Jesus did not come to establish yet another religion in his name. Jesus did not found a single sect that now exists and calls his name.
And now presume to speak for him beyond what he said when he delivered the message of the cross.

 

[SolomonVII]

It is impossible to get any numbers for this, but my own impression is that for much of the history of Christianity, the idea was that the road to hell is broad and the road to heaven is exceedingly narrow, and that the fate of most of mankind, after a life on earth that was in and of itself nasty, brutish and short, was to spend the eternity in hell.
If most of us look at our own lives, maybe more than a few here will find that they have not too many dark stains, but there will probably be fewer than a couple with no black stains and foibles at all, which will tend to gnaw at all assurances.
OSAS seems to me to be a way of putting the good news back into the gospel, that redemption is not about how good we are, but of how good that God is, and that sin is not even a factor.
Because God redeems sinners even.
The question is can sinners trust in God too, to save us in spite of ourselves, in spite of our incorrigible falling back into sin, more than seventy times seven even?

The alternative is that you have been saved once, so now be good, or else...
, or at least you don't die before making it to the priest to confess your latest round of mortal sins.

There is always that consternation though, best expressed by Jonas so long ago, what about justice? What about consequences?

Can anyone really make any sense out of God's response, that is all about the number of cattle that the Assyrians have?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by EddardStark

Indeed, but you can reject it. The Bible is full of examples of this. So is the reality of the world around us: Apostates aplenty.
"Oh, but they were never really saved" is an easy cop-out, and the Christian version of the classical "No true Scotsman"-
​

There appeared to be a lot of apostates or accusations of apostasizing back in the 1st century and beyond, such as in Acts 21:21 against Paul.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48456361#post48456361
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?

Greek Lexicon :: G646 (KJV)
Strong's Number G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance

Acts 21:21
"They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses, the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs to be walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]

2 Thess 2:3
No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.



Apostasy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Apostasy (/&#601;&#712;p&#594;st&#601;si/; Greek: &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#943;&#945; (apostasia), "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatizes) is known as an apostate.

The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.
The term is occasionally also used metaphorically to refer to renunciation of a non-religious belief or cause, such as a political party, brain trust, or a sports team.
Many religious groups and some states punish apostates.

Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group[1] or subjected to formal or informal punishment. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may simply be the voluntary action of its members.
Certain churches may in certain circumstances excommunicate the apostate, while some religious scriptures demand the death penalty for apostates.



.

 

[EddardStark]

You have conveniently discarded Matthew 7 !

No, I haven't. Because I don't base my entire theology around single verses taken out of their context.

Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord"...

Indeed. This does not touch my point.

Lotsa pretenders and wannabes in the sunday country club.

True, but it does not follow from this, that anyone who WAS a Christian, and then became apostate, was never a Christian in the first place.
What about carnal Christians and purpose driven zombies ?

What about 1 John 2 ? You need to consider the passages.

I consider the entirety of the Scriptures, including 1 John 2 (which does not speak to what we're talking about now, btw). Because, as I said, I don't build my theology around cherry-picked passages that suit my argument at any given time.

Since salvation is a non-returnable gift from God...

You must believe God takes it back from His child ?

No, the child rejects it.

This gift and call of God are irrevocable.

Indeed. God does not suddenly go: "Nah, I grow tired with him/her. They can fry for all I care". But that's not what I've been saying, either!

Who will snatch us from God's hand ?

No one. But we can crawl out of it and jump to our dooms, if we so choose.

Please don't say people no longer want salvation.

Some people become apostates: They no longer believe that there is any need to be "saved", because they no longer believe that there is anything to be saved FROM, or TO, or anyone to DO the saving.

The:
"You can't lose your salvation. Apostates were never really Christians in the first place"-rant is just as ridiculous (and infinitely more harmful) than the "No true Scotsman"-one.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I think it is because those Christians to whom you refer elect to obey their church first. And they cower when thinking to ask their minister questions. Often enough because that minister will charge they are committing an offense for daring to, question God.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you need to get your mind-reading and personal omniscience circuits replaced. Some of us arrived at our non-OSAS positions not by following others, but by reading Scripture and finding that while different portions of Scripture support different conclusions, overall OSAS is least likely.

They're not questioning God. They're questioning that minister that tells them they can lose their salvation. It is a false teacher, that pastor who refuses to allow his parishioners to ask questions.
That is his duty! If he is anointed to be a pastor, his is obligated to teach the word! And the only way to teach the word is to be ready to answer the questions those who are student of the word have.

Sorry again, but I have no qualms about questioning or even directly disputing even my favorite preachers and authors. And I have in fact disputed some who teach that one can "lose" salvation -- though of course I believe it is entirely possible to abandon salvation.

Those who believe they can lose their salvation are being led by false teachers. And at the peril of their immortal soul. However, it is not just that false teacher who is responsible for this. It is that sheep, that parishioner, who does not read the scriptures for themselves so as to realize they are being lied to in this regard.

Sorry again, but in fact it was just such reading the Scriptures for myself that led me to the conclusion that both OSAS and the notion that a believer can "lose" salvation by doing bad works or neglecting good works are false.

Eternal life!
The pastor who lies and says someone can lose their eternal salvation is demonstrating they know nothing of Jesus. Nor do they know the meaning of, eternal.

But they do know how to keep the sheep beholding to that false teacher. When that teacher scares the ignorant in his flock who take him at his word and think they can lose what Jesus said he died to give them for all eternity. Salvation!

He gives, He does not force us to keep it.

1 John 5:11-13

Followed immediately by 5:16-17, which show that a "brother" -- i.e. a real Christian -- can commit a sin that leads to loss of eternal life, and that in such a case, we ought not even pray for that person, since there is no hope.

John 5:24

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

True, no outside force can come and yank us from His hand. But we are free to jump. And if we do make that choice, we have become so bent and hardened that we will never return.

Jesus is not a liar.
But those who teach salvation can be lost are. Anyone who loses their salvation never had it in the first place. Scripture tells us it is as simple as that.

That is almost never the case.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

Third point is that OSAS folks are terrified of Works, so it seems that even keeping the commandments should be avoided, so that the pretense of earning one's salvation is avoided at all costs. Thus sinning is better than keeping the commandments.

FTR, I am not OSAS, and yet I am pretty much of an antinomian in regard to works and "commandments."

The last point is that this false idea, cannot be justified from Scripture without ignoring a whole lot of other Scripture.

That's true of a lot of ideas, both true and false.