Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

That isn't a question that comes from my post, SU. According to the other poster, repentance is no longer needed, after our initial salvation. Because all sin comes from the devil, and thus we are not truly responsible for the sins we committed.

I would appreciate an accurate representation.

All believers turn away from the power of the tempter daily. THAT is repentance. To turn from that power and from that power monger.

To not turn, or even worse, to not even be cognizant of same is NOT repentance. It is only turning ones self into a better actor.

s

 

[Albion]

That isn't a question that comes from my post, SU. According to the other poster, repentance is no longer needed, after our initial salvation. Because all sin comes from the devil, and thus we are not truly responsible for the sins we committed.

The "other poster" clearly did NOT say that.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Seriously what is the problem with understanding that God wants us to be free. He doesn't want slaves, but children? Scripture is full of this teaching, so how can you miss it?

We are the children of God, see what love He has lavished upon us !!!

Since we are born of God, born of the will of God...who "UN-borns" us ?

Who cancels, negates, and nullifies our spiritual birth ? Who has the power ?

Our new nature was born of God, not of ourselves, it cannot be returned.



If as humans, we love our children in spite of whatever problems or faults they have, how much more will The Father of Spirits love us unconditionally ? If we subscribe to a returnable salvation or a salvation with an expiration date, then God did not really love us in the first place. God would knowingly be giving us the promise of eternal life, only to revoke it later ?



There is not a promise that we can keep.

But, God keeps all his great and precious promises.

 

[Erose]

Without any doubt, heaven. Any person that calls upon Jesus to save them is saved and Jesus does not abandon them.

This does not preclude them from being deceived later. Every time any of us sin (and we all do if we are truthful) we are in fact deceived. Unbelief is just another form of deception and sin. None of us were granted complete immunity from sin nor were we promised sinless perfection of the flesh, mind or heart after belief.

So how can one be not saved but saved?

The most you as an RCC member in any case can measure is only that such a person MIGHT NOT be saved. This is not and can not be an absolute even in your own system. And might not logically also includes might be.

We have already had this conversation. But I will summarize my views again:

As a Catholic I have more assurance, because I know at all times what my relationship is with my God. I know when I am in the state of Sanctifying Grace, and I know when I am not. One cannot commit a mortal sin, without know that he committed that sin.

On the other hand, you can never be sure of your salvation, for you really don't know if you are a member of the saved. As others have already readily admitted, someone who falls from grace latter in life, was never really saved to begin with. So how does one know if he/she is really a member of the saved?

Of course you have a differing approach to this subject in that if I understand correctly, if someone is saved, and they fall from grace and go back to their sinful ways, no worries mate, they are saved anyway. I don't think most OSAS'ers would agree with this assessment.

I wouldn't come to that conclusion. We all can read that Satan entered Judas and in that GODS WILL was assuredly performed because the events of Jesus Christ, His Arrival, His Birth, His Death, His Resurrection were ALL set solidly in writing in the Word of God long long prior. No one could have changed a single thing that happened.

So, Judas performed his exact role. Why would I deride a man who could do nothing else? Had Judas not been deceived then the entire calendar of events could have possibly derailed.

The last thing I would do would be to condemn Judas when obviously SATAN was fully in play IN Judas. There is more to view than just JUDAS isn't there? How about giving Judas the benefit of the doubt and understand that what happened was by DIVINE PLAN?

What happened to Judas was not much different than what happened to Peter. Satan also spoke from Peter's lips. Peter was also led to deny Jesus. Both men were in reality showing us the validity of Mark 4:15. If you go read it you should see this fact immediately. And at that point you should see neither man acted alone, but were in concert with SATAN exactly as Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables set forth.

I consider these events to be strictly in the Hands of God in any case.

Mat 26: [24b] ... but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

How we view believers will affect how we read the scriptures. As you can tell by now I accept the fact of Mark 4:15 most seriously (as well as all the seed parables) and that has led me to the conclusion that man is not alone, but Satan enters the heart where the Word is sown. I do not then see 'just and only' MAN.

So when I read about 'casting out devils' and those same people being told 'depart from me, I never knew you' I know EXACTLY whom Jesus is speaking to and it is NOT the person, but Satan (or devils.) In this way my sight is beneficial to the believer and detrimental to Satan.

I find then LIFE in every Word of God, even in the BAD WORDS, as it is meant to be seen. A blinded person will not and can not see or understand how that can be.

Back to the devil made me do it. Question for you, in the Garden of Eden, when the serpent tempted Eve, and then Eve Adam; who got punished? Was it not all three? If your position is correct that the serpent forced or made Adam and Eve sin; then God punishing Adam and Eve, for being forced against their wills, to sin, would that have been an act of justice?

You're missing the point. Paul cast out devils, yet Paul admitted by his own lips the following:

-indwelling sin was not him
-he had every form of concupiscence enter his mind in adverse response to the law
-he had evil present with him
-he had a devil, a messenger of Satan in his own flesh
-he was the chief of sinners

That to me is a very impressive list of HONEST CONCLUSIONS.

I don't think I am. St. Paul did just like every other Christian did and does. When he falls, he got on his knees, ask God's forgiveness, and it was given to him. Just as St. John promised in his first letter: When you sin, confess them, and God will forgive you.

 

[Erose]

The "other poster" clearly did NOT say that.

The other poster has said that in other posts. Perhaps you haven't been keeping up with the conversation. That was one of the original discussions found in this thread. But to clarify:

Here is the line of discussion from another post:

Erose = No the best form of repentance is on our knees. Begging for God's forgiveness, and striving to sin no more.

Squint = You can beg all you please. Not one whit of it is going to make anyone sinless.

Now, go justify condemning other sinning believers who no longer believe in your magistrates opinions and are now unbelievers to possible hell.

I detest such activity as demonic.

You can follow the line of discussion starting at post: 201.

 

[Erose]

I would appreciate an accurate representation.

All believers turn away from the power of the tempter daily. THAT is repentance. To turn from that power and from that power monger.

To not turn, or even worse, to not even be cognizant of same is NOT repentance. It is only turning ones self into a better actor.

s

From your response below in post 202, explain to me how I am being inaccurate?

So one question for you then. When you commit sins to you confess them, and ask God to forgive you, and then strive to no longer commit those sins?

I understand one primary thing about sin, that it is of the devil.

I doubt the devil is much interested if at all in not sinning.

Disassociation is the best form of repentance, the requirement being continual.

Am I going to provide you or anyone else with the intimacies of deception with my personal battles? Uh, no. I don't give that bad actor that much breathing room.

My quest is to find the fatal blow unto the adversary. Not make 'him' behave as that is not going to happen.

s

 

[squint]

From your response below in post 202, explain to me how I am being inaccurate?

You have been falsely taught that evil thoughts are not sin nor are they defiling nor are they of the tempter.

That is not the case.

Therefore you excuse them, and the tempter in the process.

s

 

[Erose]

We are the children of God, see what love He has lavished upon us !!!

Since we are born of God, born of the will of God...who "UN-borns" us ?

Scripture tells us we can.

Who cancels, negates, and nullifies our spiritual birth ? Who has the power ?

Scripture tells we can.

Our new nature was born of God, not of ourselves, it cannot be returned.

But it can be corrupted, and lost; which is what Scripture tells us.

If as humans, we love our children in spite of whatever problems or faults they have, how much more will The Father of Spirits love us unconditionally ? If we subscribe to a returnable salvation or a salvation with an expiration date, then God did not really love us in the first place. God would knowingly be giving us the promise of eternal life, only to revoke it later ?

The problem with your assertion, is that you forget we are human beings. God gave us free will, correct? That is what makes us in His image. Thus He will not go against that will, because of His love for us. Sin keeps us out of heaven, correct? The teaching from the Book of Revelation is very explicit in that point. God is not going to force anyone to go to heaven. That is the reason why it requires a choice from us, for redemption to be applied to us. We must BELIEVE and be BAPTIZED (Mk 16:16). We must also DAILY pick up our crosses and follow Him. (Mt 10:38, 16: 24). We must abide in Him, by keeping His commandments. (Jn 15: 6-10)

There is not a promise that we can keep.

But, God keeps all his great and precious promises.

You are right, that isn't a promise we can keep, by ourselves. That is the reason, why we need the grace of God to grow in us, each and every day. That is the reason why we need a God who is willing to forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. So that when we do fall, we have a means to be reconciled back to Him.

Salvation is not a one time event. Salvation is a life, which we must lead from our initial conversion, our baptism, partaking of the Lord's table, keeping His commandments, and picking up our crosses and following Him wherever He leads us. It is as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong. I get why the OSAS idea is enticing; because it allows people to get their cake and eat it too. You can be saved and do all the sinning you want, with a clear conscience; because you are not sinning, but the devil inside you is the one sinning. But even though it is enticing, it doesn't make it right. Like I said before, you really have to throw a lot of Scripture away, to accept OSAS. And that I am not willing to do.

 

[Erose]

You have been falsely taught that evil thoughts are not sin nor are they defiling nor are they of the tempter.

That is not the case.

Therefore you excuse them, and the tempter in the process.

s

Temptation is not sin. Sin requires an act of the will. Evil thoughts and/or concupisciences are not in themselves acts of sin. For an act to occur, it requires a will to initiate the act. For example, if someone makes me angry, and all of a sudden in my mind, the idea of punching that guy in the face pops up. That is temptation. It isn't sin until either I actually commit the act, or that I glorify in that temptation in my mind, because I am too afraid to act on it, physically.

Like I said not all temptations come from the Devil. Most come from within, and the world around us. And these temptations must be battled every single day. That is the reason why we need the armor of faith.

 

[bottomofsandal]

The problem with your assertion, is that you forget we are human beings. God gave us free will, correct? That is what makes us in His image. Thus He will not go against that will, because of His love for us. Sin keeps us out of heaven, correct? The teaching from the Book of Revelation is very explicit in that point. God is not going to force anyone to go to heaven. That is the reason why it requires a choice from us, for redemption to be applied to us. We must BELIEVE and be BAPTIZED (Mk 16:16). We must also DAILY pick up our crosses and follow Him. (Mt 10:38, 16: 24). We must abide in Him, by keeping His commandments. (Jn 15: 6-10)

I agree with what you are saying.

Do you think some who believe themselves to be saved, might not be saved ?



The Bible tells us we are sealed by God unto The Day of Redemption.

Who can break that seal ? Who can snatch us out of The Father's hands ?



There is an element within OSAS that did not have a belief experience.

There is a part of OSAS that just "got in" so they can live like the devil.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter The Kingdom.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Don't get me wrong. I get why the OSAS idea is enticing; because it allows people to get their cake and eat it too. You can be saved and do all the sinning you want, with a clear conscience; because you are not sinning, but the devil inside you is the one sinning. But even though it is enticing, it doesn't make it right. Like I said before, you really have to throw a lot of Scripture away, to accept OSAS. And that I am not willing to do.

This is not accurate, but rather an erroneous view of OSAS.

OSAS does not make us anxious to sin, no one is looking to rebel.



OSAS is about security and certainty.

OSAS is about resting in the finished, completed, perfect work of Christ.

OSAS is realizing it is all God and none of me. I am what I am by His grace.

 

[squint]

Temptation is not sin. Sin requires an act of the will. Evil thoughts and/or concupisciences are not in themselves acts of sin.

As stated prior, the above are the results of not listening to THEE TEACHER, our Savior:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Of course men will try to excuse such evil defiling. They will not be heard.

s

 

[Albion]

This is not accurate, but rather an erroneous view of OSAS.

You're right to throw the flag.

Sometimes, a poster may think it's clever to appear to be agreeing with some idea while actually misrepresenting it, but the gimmick only works if he's not called on it.

 

[bottomofsandal]

You're right to throw the flag.

Sometimes, a poster may think it's clever to appear to be agreeing with some idea while actually misrepresenting it, but the gimmick only works if he's not called on it.

...been watchin' a little soccer ?

 

[Erose]

I agree with what you are saying.

Do you think some who believe themselves to be saved, might not be saved ?

For me that is a trick question, albeit I don't think you are using it as such. So I will explain a little bit.

There are two possible states each individual can be in: Either he is justified or he isn't. In Catholic theology we refer to this as being either in the state of Sanctifying grace (justified) or in the state of mortal sin (not-justified). I believe that one should know which state he/she is in, as long as they are not deceiving themselves.

For me I know when I am in the state of mortal sin, because for me to be in that state I must commit a mortal sin (sin that leads to death). One cannot be ignorant of committing such an act, because a mortal sin is a willing turning away from the uncreated Good (God) to a created good. In other words it requires an act of will on our part.

I also know when I am in the state of sanctifying grace, because 1) I am cognizant that I haven't committed a mortal sin; and 2) by the fruits that I do.

So to answer your question: yes one can know if they are currently saved or not. But I think know that answer requires one to look inward and see what shape their souls are in.

For example if one is claiming to be saved, and they are running around being promiscuous, most probably they are deceiving themselves.

Hopefully that makes some sense. I don't want to write a book.

The Bible tells us we are sealed by God unto The Day of Redemption.

Who can break that seal ? Who can snatch us out of The Father's hands ?

I think it is here that a lot of folks get confused. What is a seal. Most of us modern folk, when we hear the word sealed, we think of a door or gate being sealed right? But the usage of the word "sealed" in the NT, is actually a reference to a technique used in the ancient world to protect legal documents, and to prevent tampering.

When legal documents were shared between let us say two kings. The document was rolled up, or the box was closed; and wax was poured onto the seam, and then a signet ring was pressed into the wax. At this point the only people allowed to open the sealed document or box, was the individual it was intended for, or the individual who sealed it. This doesn't mean that the box or document were impossible to open by someone else, but if it was opened by someone else, the receiver could immediately know that it was tampered with, by a 3rd party.

Now what seal are you referring to? Well it is the covenant between us (individually and collectively) and God.

Anyway God promises that no 3rd party can break open that seal. So that leaves only two possibilities for breaking the seal, God or us. But God also promises that if we are faithful, He will be even more faithful; thus God has stated He won't break that seal either. So this leave only one entity that can break that seal, and that is us. We the second party can break that seal; and sadly it happens more often than it should.

There is an element within OSAS that did not have a belief experience.

There is a part of OSAS that just "got in" so they can live like the devil.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter The Kingdom.

Amen.

 

[Erose]

This is not accurate, but rather an erroneous view of OSAS.

OSAS does not make us anxious to sin, no one is looking to rebel.

I agree it is an erroneous view.

OSAS is about security and certainty.

OSAS is about resting in the finished, completed, perfect work of Christ.

OSAS is realizing it is all God and none of me. I am what I am by His grace.

It is that security and certainty part, that creates the problem. You really have to go all the way through this idea to its conclusion. Set let us do a little work here. Which of the below statements are false:

1) If I am saved, then there is nothing I can do to prevent me from being saved.
2) Me committing any type of sin as a saved person will not injure my salvation.
3) Confession seeking for forgiveness is not necessary for at least two reasons a) It is a work and b) What purpose does it serve if I am already saved.

Let me know if I got these correct or not. If I didn't then please let me know where. I think that we need to get this part correct first before we can move on. The last thing I want to do, is misrepresent the topic at hand.

 

[Erose]

You're right to throw the flag.

Sometimes, a poster may think it's clever to appear to be agreeing with some idea while actually misrepresenting it, but the gimmick only works if he's not called on it.

Ain't that one of your favorite ploys?

 

[Erose]

As stated prior, the above are the results of not listening to THEE TEACHER, our Savior:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Of course men will try to excuse such evil defiling. They will not be heard.

s

Me meditating lets say on have sex with some girl who is not my wife is a sin. Me seeing an attractive girl, and a thought pops in my head, but doesn't gain ground is a temptation.

Temptation leads to sin, but it isn't sin in itself.

Question for you then:

If a friend of yours comes to you and asks you to help her kill her husband and that she will share the insurance money from his death with you; have you sinned?

 

[SolomonVII]

Having a sinful nature describes how such avoidances and acts of mental will even make sense.

 

[NorrinRadd]

OSAS is about security and certainty.

Arminians do not feel insecure or uncertain.

OSAS is about resting in the finished, completed, perfect work of Christ.

Arminians happily enjoy this rest.

OSAS is realizing it is all God and none of me. I am what I am by His grace.

Arminians believe the latter. The former is poorly phrased, because the natural way to understand it is that our own personalities cease to exist, so that any time we sin, effectively God is sinning. Even OSAS people don't really believe that.

Arminians believe we don't have to exert effort in order to "stay saved," just as we did not exert effort to "get saved." In order to "get saved," all we had to do was stop resisting, and in order to "stay saved," all we have to do is not willfully cast our faith aside.