Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

Me meditating lets say on have sex with some girl who is not my wife is a sin. Me seeing an attractive girl, and a thought pops in my head, but doesn't gain ground is a temptation.

Temptation leads to sin, but it isn't sin in itself.

Question for you then:

If a friend of yours comes to you and asks you to help her kill her husband and that she will share the insurance money from his death with you; have you sinned?

I accept Jesus statements as hardline facts.

Not really all that interested in how much anyone else cares to engage those facts other than to say as Paul did for himself, he both had such thoughts and that he had evil present with him.

I doubt anyone else is one bit different and if they claimed they were, I wouldn't believe them.

s

 

[bottomofsandal]

For me that is a trick question, albeit I don't think you are using it as such. So I will explain a little bit.

There are two possible states each individual can be in: Either he is justified or he isn't. In Catholic theology we refer to this as being either in the state of Sanctifying grace (justified) or in the state of mortal sin (not-justified). I believe that one should know which state he/she is in, as long as they are not deceiving themselves.

For me I know when I am in the state of mortal sin, because for me to be in that state I must commit a mortal sin (sin that leads to death). One cannot be ignorant of committing such an act, because a mortal sin is a willing turning away from the uncreated Good (God) to a created good. In other words it requires an act of will on our part.

I also know when I am in the state of sanctifying grace, because 1) I am cognizant that I haven't committed a mortal sin; and 2) by the fruits that I do.

So to answer your question: yes one can know if they are currently saved or not. But I think know that answer requires one to look inward and see what shape their souls are in.

For example if one is claiming to be saved, and they are running around being promiscuous, most probably they are deceiving themselves.

Hopefully that makes some sense. I don't want to write a book.

Write as much as you like

You are able to articulate your pov in a pleasant affable fashion.



All sins are forgivable except blasphemy of The Holy Spirit/unbelief.

Does the moment of repentance come into play ?



Inotherwords, you and I both commit a mortal sin. You are on a timeline to confess your sin and return to a state of grace. You do not want to die in a state of mortal sin. I too would share that urgency of reconciliation. God in His mercy would sting my conscience. The godly sorrow that leads to repentance would lead to confession and forgiveness. Since God said that He would keep us to the end, and that He would never leave us, I am assured that God would not àllow me to die with unconfessed sin.


Of course I pray neither of us commit an eggregious act.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Arminians do not feel insecure or uncertain.




Arminians happily enjoy this rest.




Arminians believe the latter. The former is poorly phrased, because the natural way to understand it is that our own personalities cease to exist, so that any time we sin, effectively God is sinning. Even OSAS people don't really believe that.

Arminians believe we don't have to exert effort in order to "stay saved," just as we did not exert effort to "get saved." In order to "get saved," all we had to do was stop resisting, and in order to "stay saved," all we have to do is not willfully cast our faith aside.

I am pro-OSAS

 

[Rick Otto]

I am amateur OSAS.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I am amateur OSAS.

Ha!


Sounds risky.

 

[BobRyan]

The OSAS argument waters down the Bible texts of Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4, Ezek 18 so that instead of this being a warning to "you who stand only by your faith" Romans 11 - it s a warning to "you who are in fact lost and going to hell" and is the warning that those going to hell might just become "lostER" if they are not careful.

That alone should be a huge clue that OSAS is a flawed tradition of man that does not stand up to the sola-scriptura test of the Bible.

You can fashion an argument like that...and use some prejudicial wording, but it is easy to prove Predestination from Scripture. The idea that it was new in the 1500s or "a tradition" (and it couldn't be both) or manmade are just non-starters in my book.

I notice that you chose to avoid the texts given as proof of the failing of OSAS.

When it comes to Sola Scriptura - OSAS only survives by ignoring the texts listed as opposing it.

Everyone assumes that OSAS is a Calvinist position.

That is not the case. Calvin himself did not adhere to OSAS and openly taught that:

He did not really know because the proof was in Perseverance to the end at which time only Divine Sovereignty can make the determination. (which position is very close to the same as orthodoxy and almost all sects)

4 and 5 point Calvinism are the only models that provide a logical basis for OSAS. The Arminians who abandon their own model to cling to OSAS "anyway" - do so in spite of the cognitive dissonance inherent in doing so.

The Calvinist at least has an excuse for it.

Divine Sovereignty and predestination are Bible through and through.

And could be used as an argument for Calvinism - until one recalls that God has free will, and as such Christ had free will -- even though God knew every word that Christ would speak before He spoke it.

At that point even 4 and 5 point Calvinism fail.

The 'so called' proof texts for the position of OSAS are overwhelming

Only if one ignores the texts at the top of this post.

And finally there is not one single named person given in the entirety of the Bible who is said to have been saved and then eternally lost,

There is not one single "named person" in the Bible that is said to have gone to hell.

That is no proof that nobody is lost, or at real risk of going to hell. Making up those sorts of word-games is not a substitute for an actual Bible doctrine nor even proof of one.

In Romans 11 we have those who fell - as being the unsaved Jews.

In Gal 5:4 those who fell are "severed from Christ, and fallen from Grace" -- if there is a grace-less, Christ-less gospel it is preached by that form of OSAS that claims that those fallen-from-grace and severed-from-christ are in a saved state.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

There is not one single "named person" in the Bible that is said to have gone to hell.

There are specific statements about the forthcoming occupants of hell. Believers who are subsequently blinded are not.

That is no proof that nobody is lost, or at real risk of going to hell. Making up those sorts of word-games is not a substitute for an actual Bible doctrine nor even proof of one.

All ya hafta do is show up with the proof.

In Romans 11 we have those who fell - as being the unsaved Jews.

How many times does Romans 11:25-32 have to be trotted out to deny that posture?

In Gal 5:4 those who fell are "severed from Christ, and fallen from Grace" -- if there is a grace-less, Christ-less gospel it is preached by that form of OSAS that claims that those fallen-from-grace and severed-from-christ are in a saved state.

No one has said that believers can not be subsequently blinded. This in no way equates to Christ abandoning them, which is a fabrication that denies open statements to the contrary by Christ Himself.

I play fair with you guys in agreeing about the validity of the law, even though we have different conclusions from that validity. You could do a service to the proof texts that entirely support Christ not abandoning anyone who calls upon Him to save and save HE WILL.

The entire premise for those who present Jesus is ineffective hinges on the abilities of the person, who was never at the plate to save themselves to start with.

How the saved got around to patting their own backs in credit for salvation remains to be questioned.

s

 

[BobRyan]

The OSAS argument waters down the Bible texts of Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4, Ezek 18 so that instead of this being a warning to "you who stand only by your faith" Romans 11 - it s a warning to "you who are in fact lost and going to hell" and is the warning that those going to hell might just become "lostER" if they are not careful.

That alone should be a huge clue that OSAS is a flawed tradition of man that does not stand up to the sola-scriptura test of the Bible.

...

The 'so called' proof texts for the position of OSAS are overwhelming

Only if one ignores the texts at the top of this post.

And finally there is not one single named person given in the entirety of the Bible who is said to have been saved and then eternally lost,

There is not one single "named person" in the Bible that is said to have gone to hell.

That is no proof that nobody is lost, or at real risk of going to hell. Making up those sorts of word-games is not a substitute for an actual Bible doctrine nor even proof of one.

In Romans 11 we have those who fell - as being the unsaved Jews.

In Gal 5:4 those who fell are "severed from Christ, and fallen from Grace" -- if there is a grace-less, Christ-less gospel it is preached by that form of OSAS that claims that those fallen-from-grace and severed-from-christ are in a saved state.

There are specific statements about the forthcoming occupants of hell. Believers who are subsequently blinded are not.

Until we look closely at the texts listed at the top of this post - as well as John 15:1-8, 1 Cor 6 etc. So many texts deal with this.

How many times does Romans 11:25-32 have to be trotted out to deny that posture?

if you think OSAS survives the texts in Romans 11 that refute it - now might be the time to show it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS does not survive Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

 

[squint]

OSAS does not survive Romans 11.[FONT=&quot]

I can't help but notice that y'all tiptoe past Romans 11:25-32 repeatedly, which same gives a very clear written example of an exact opposite conclusion.

But thanks for the entertainment anyway.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I am pro-OSAS

I am amateur OSAS.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I am pro-OSAS

Yes, I gathered that from the post to which I replied. I inferred that you were setting out advantages to OSAS when compared to other beliefs. My point was that the contrast is not that sharp in all cases.

 

[bottomofsandal]

I am amateur OSAS.

Funny

 

[Erose]

I accept Jesus statements as hardline facts.

Not really all that interested in how much anyone else cares to engage those facts other than to say as Paul did for himself, he both had such thoughts and that he had evil present with him.

I doubt anyone else is one bit different and if they claimed they were, I wouldn't believe them.

s

I also accept Jesus' statements, and those statements include a command for to keep His commandments, to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Do you think that He would not give us the grace necessary to follow His commands?

 

[Albion]

The OSAS argument waters down the Bible texts of Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4, Ezek 18 so that instead of this being a warning to "you who stand only by your faith" Romans 11 - it s a warning to "you who are in fact lost and going to hell" and is the warning that those going to hell might just become "lostER" if they are not careful.

Well, what's wrong there is not Romans but your interpretation. But then again, you more or less admitted that.

 

[Albion]

I also accept Jesus' statements, and those statements include a command for to keep His commandments, to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Do you think that He would not give us the grace necessary to follow His commands?

Here ^ again we're treated to the idea of men being able to save themselves.

Because I noted it, next will come your vehement denial of the idea.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Here ^ again we're treated to the idea of men being able to save themselves.

Because I noted it, next will come your vehement denial of the idea.

Help, did I miss something ? I have bad vision.

If we are able to be perfect then:


1) we were made perfect and simply need to discover our perfection

2) Jesus fulfilling The Law and our perfection IN Christ becomes obsolete




I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth, just wonderin'

 

[Erose]

Write as much as you like

You are able to articulate your pov in a pleasant affable fashion.

Thank you.

All sins are forgivable except blasphemy of The Holy Spirit/unbelief.

Does the moment of repentance come into play ?

Yes I do think so. But I also think that repentance is a process as well. For example the act of repentance or as we Catholics sometimes use "doing penance" requires:

1) Realization that one has sinned.
2) Humble and contrite heart.
3) Confession
4) Absolution
5) Reparation
6) A commitment to no longer sin

Points one and two are actually graces given to us by God. When we have sinned, it is God that opens in our hearts and minds the realization that a sin has been committed, and it is His grace that calls us to repentance. Once we realize we have sinned, we should then understand the magnitude of what we have done; and that should lead us to having a humbled and contrite heart, for our actions.

Afterwards we must confess that sin, i.e. acknowledge that sin, and that we did that sin; not the devil, not our friends, we did it.

If we have fulfilled two and three, then our sins are forgiven. We can take confidence in that, as St. John tells us in his 1st letter: 1:[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. Absolution comes from God and Him alone. Even in the case of the Sacrament of Confession we Catholics possess, the priest who is making the absolution in doing so "Persona Christi" i.e. in the Person of Christ.

Afterwards, we must make reparation for our actions, for all sin has consequences, and for that we must make reparation, and really our absolution is dependent upon this as well. (For example if I steal a car, and then go to God for forgiveness, but do not return the car, am I really repenting? No, no I am not.)

But also we need to have the intention to resist this evil in the future. We must make resolutions to help us overcome the evil that we are bogged down in. Even though we may fall again to the same sin, each time we must get up and commit to resisting this evil. Eventually we will overcome it, because if we are fighting this evil, there is no doubt God is helping us fight it.

Inotherwords, you and I both commit a mortal sin. You are on a timeline to confess your sin and return to a state of grace. You do not want to die in a state of mortal sin. I too would share that urgency of reconciliation. God in His mercy would sting my conscience. The godly sorrow that leads to repentance would lead to confession and forgiveness. Since God said that He would keep us to the end, and that He would never leave us, I am assured that God would not àllow me to die with unconfessed sin.

I'm not in disagreement with you on this one. And perhaps it is the way that we are approaching the situation here, and I am fine with that personally. The results are the same, albeit the approach is different.

Of course I pray neither of us commit an eggregious act.

Amen!, I as well. It is written that we should pray for each other, and I am all for that.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Amen!, I as well. It is written that we should pray for each other, and I am all for that.

done

 

[Erose]

Here ^ again we're treated to the idea of men being able to save themselves.

Because I noted it, next will come your vehement denial of the idea.

Once again we have another attempt to imply something in someone's else's posts that isn't there. There is no one on these forums that I know of that believes we can work our way into heaven. No one. And yet it is the biggest accusation used, when well quite frankly one doesn't have an argument.

Albion, what do you do with those passages in Scripture that tells us to keep the commandments? What do you do with the passage in John 15:10, that says for us to abide in Christ we must keep His commandments? Does not these passages explicitly point out that yes we are saved by faith, but something more than just belief is required from us. If we truly believe in Christ and we will do what He tells us to do, which is keep the commandments, do acts of charity, etc.

See here is the problem with OSAS, you guys are so scared of the word "works"; that you dodge it as if it is a viper. But does not Scripture tell us that when we are judged we will be judged by our works? Every single place in Scripture where it speaks of the final judgment it tells us what? By our works (or fruits) we shall be judged. Never does it say we will be judged by our faith, by our belief. So perhaps it is time to realize you are missing something in your theology. That your theology, doesn't take into consideration the full picture, but only a part.