Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[BobRyan]

The OSAS argument waters down the Bible texts of Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4, Ezek 18 so that instead of this being a warning to "you who stand only by your faith" Romans 11 - it s a warning to "you who are in fact lost and going to hell" and is the warning that those going to hell might just become "lostER" if they are not careful.

That alone should be a huge clue that OSAS is a flawed tradition of man that does not stand up to the sola-scriptura test of the Bible.

You can fashion an argument like that...and use some prejudicial wording, but it is easy to prove Predestination from Scripture. The idea that it was new in the 1500s or "a tradition" (and it couldn't be both) or manmade are just non-starters in my book.

I notice that you chose to avoid the texts given as proof of the failing of OSAS.

When it comes to Sola Scriptura - OSAS only survives by ignoring the texts listed as opposing it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One line of Arminian reasoning is that before the foundation of the world, God foresaw (or foreknew) who would come to faith, and "chose" them on that basis. They were "chosen" or "elected" "according to the foreknowledge of the Father" (1 Pet. 1:2).

That is true.

By Contrast the calvinist argument is that God chooses in total ignorance of what He knows about the future.

The burden of proof is then on the Calvinist prove that God ever does anything in total ignorance of the knowledge that He has.

But such is the dark - corner that the OSAS must resort to to make its case.

And this is why I tend to think many people walk away from it. It does not stand up; to reason or to the sola scriptura test.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Except it began in Jerusalem. You know back when you guys were Orthodox.

It was a single church.

Did these guys miss the memo?

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.

 

[squint]

I notice that you chose to avoid the texts given as proof of the failing of OSAS.

When it comes to Sola Scriptura - OSAS only survives by ignoring the texts listed as opposing it.

in Christ,

Bob

Everyone assumes that OSAS is a Calvinist position.

That is not the case. Calvin himself did not adhere to OSAS and openly taught that:

He did not really know because the proof was in Perseverance to the end at which time only Divine Sovereignty can make the determination. (which position is very close to the same as orthodoxy and almost all sects)

Divine Sovereignty and predestination are Bible through and through. If anyone here claims Jesus Christ as their Savior they do so by the Holy Spirit within them to do so regardless of being sinners.

The 'so called' proof texts for the position of OSAS are overwhelming, but sadly, as is the case for most of these petty disputes, people only study the side they adhere to and automatically ignore the scriptures that refute their position.

And finally there is not one single named person given in the entirety of the Bible who is said to have been saved and then eternally lost, so the fact is there is really not one single proof text to support believers being lost and then eternally fried.

There is however ample warning that we do have enemies to faith and that we can be blinded by them, even into unbelief. This does not automatically equate to eternal loss of salvation. If anyone understands this subject they know the god of this world blinds and does so internally, in the mind and heart.

Therefore there is more than just the person involved. There is also an entirely different entity than the person involved and that entity is in fact INFERIOR to God, but is allowed by God to be raised up, even to see if WE react in MERCY and extend GRACE to such.

So the fallen faithful are just as much a TEST to us as to them. Shame on any of you who condemn them. You are tottering on the verge of unbelief yourselves.

s

 

[Mama Kidogo]

It was a single church.

Did these guys miss the memo?

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.

For sure we were one church. And then we all let politics screw it all up. We all need leader but we don't need a grand poobah . The head is already there. Christ.
There must be something in the water of Rome that make the drinkers want to make an earthly empire. How quickly we forget Christ's words to Mrs. Thunder.

 

[Albion]

The 'so called' proof texts for the position of OSAS are overwhelming, but sadly, as is the case for most of these petty disputes, people only study the side they adhere to and automatically ignore the scriptures that refute their position.

And finally there is not one single named person given in the entirety of the Bible who is said to have been saved and then eternally lost, so the fact is there is really not one single proof text to support believers being lost and then eternally fried.

There is however ample warning that we do have enemies to faith and that we can be blinded by them, even into unbelief. This does not automatically equate to eternal loss of salvation. If anyone understands this subject they know the god of this world blinds and does so internally, in the mind and heart.

Very well stated. Thank you. I hope it is received with an open mind and not immediately greeted with the usual "Calvinism is unscriptural!" bluster.

 

[squint]

Very well stated. Thank you. I hope it is received with an open mind and not immediately greeted with the usual "Calvinism is unscriptural!" bluster.

We were all well advised here:

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

and here, even more:

Romans 11:
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:
on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Technically speaking those who enter into Gods severity have in fact been given to the wicked judge internally and they are exposing that fire or death when they seek to condemn another.

Paul isolates this matter in Romans 2:

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

They are turned over to the wicked judge right here on earth and their message is written across their own lips.

There is not a one of us who stands without sin.

Unbelief is also a sin.

If a person seeks Mercy. If a person seeks Grace. IF they have received same, then THAT FRUIT will drip from their LIPS and they already have a PORTION OF HEAVEN right here on earth, and a precious treasure has already been provided to them to equip them for their eternal journey.

s

 

[Erose]

Except it began in Jerusalem. You know back when you guys were Orthodox.

The whole argument was non-sensical anyway. Albion started off with a false premise, and catholichomeschooler debated against that false premise with a false premise. Failure to understand what a schism is with both parties.

 

[Erose]

I think it's more of a methodology to salvage face after making very poor arguments for the topic matter called 'change the subject.'

At least arguments are being made from the non-OSAS side; still waiting for something that makes sense from the OSAS side of this debate.

 

[squint]

At least arguments are being made from the non-OSAS side; still waiting for something that makes sense from the OSAS side of this debate.

Anyone can Google up numerous sites that list proof texts. Anyone who does so and actually engages them and thinks about it will come up to the rightful conclusion.

And even beside all that, what good does it do any of you to condemn a fallen believer anyway? There is no use for such measures and it's not good for your internals.

The story you are told is that after 1 or 2 admonishments is to cut somebody loose. The problem is that every sect has a different admonishment list that is in fact SELF constructed, and in that they have fallen into a judgment trap themselves.

s

 

[Erose]

Getting back to topic, can a believer lose their salvation in a temporary sense?

Even those opposed to OSAS agree that this is the case. In their sights someone who has departed the faith can be reinstated by follow whatever quidelines their particular sect employs. Repentence, confession, contrition, incantation, reinstatement (or whatever other forms are deployed.)

And in this sense most OSAS would also agree, that it is only temporary loss. This does not equate to eternal loss.

So a question for you then, if a believe looses their salvation temporarily in your view, and he dies, does he go to heaven or hell?

It was requested quite far back into this thread for any non OSAS adherent to show a single named instance of ANY believer who is shown in the N.T. to have actually 'lost' their salvation eternally.

There is not one named example of this fate to any believer.

Judas Iscariot comes to mind. Of course you will say, well he never was saved to begin with; but this man walked with Jesus Christ for at least three years; are you telling me that you believe that Judas during those three years was pretending to be saved? I don't buy it. Thinking that way is just imposing your understanding into those passages of Scripture, and nothing more.

Therefore the position is at a minimum, surmised. It does not actually exist in black on white in the scriptures.

A common retort to this is this scripture:
Matthew 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The first thing to observe here is that we all work iniquity i.e. we all as believers sin. So, if that were the measure, working iniquity, then we may all very well hear this statement. One might have to not work iniquity in order not to hear this statement.

But since any who make that claim are lying and not in Truth, iniquity is not the measure, as we all do sin.

So, is the above said to unbelievers? Would unbelievers be casting out devils, prophesying and doing wonderful works? Perhaps so. But they are certainly involved with things that are FOR Christ, so it is unlikely they are His enemies.

Interesting point; but there is one issue that I think you are missing here. Jesus says in another passage if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move mountains. Thus for people to work miracles and cast out devils requires faith. Faith in the name of Jesus does it not? Thus if these people are casting out devils and working miracles, having faith is not the problem. Something else is missing.

But the problem with OSAS is that you believe you are saved by faith ALONE. Yet these people have faith, if not they wouldn't be able to work miracles and cast out devils, which requires having faith.

So to justify your position I think you need to disprove one or two assertions here. 1) That people can cast out devils and work miracles without having faith or 2) Something more is needed for salvation than just faith.

Luke 9:
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Since all believers do for a fact sin and sin is in fact of the DEVIL it is just as likely that the devil(s) who in any case partially blind believers are being addressed by Jesus in Matthew 7:22-23 because ALL believers do sin/work iniquity.

All believers may sin, but not all believers sin the same. Nor are all believers equally in sin. We are not dung hills covered in snow. You have tried to make that assertion before that we all sin, and it really doesn't matter if we sin, since it really is the devil doing it and not us; and it is just a false statement.

Jesus throughout the Gospels, warns people not to sin. His Apostles in their various writings in the NT, warns people not to sin. If we can't keep ourselves from sinning, because it is really the devil making us; then why did Jesus and His Apostles, warn us so frequently to avoid sin? Something in your theology is just not jiving with the Biblical record.

Not only that I am still waiting for someone to explain away Ezekiel 18; which no one has touched yet.

 

[Erose]

Anyone can Google up numerous sites that list proof texts. Anyone who does so and actually engages them and thinks about it will come up to the rightful conclusion.

Hum. Me I read the Bible and did come up with the right conclusion. OSAS can only be justified, by completely ignoring large portions of Scripture. Whatever model of justification one uses, it needs to take into account all of Scripture and not just a few short passages, with many of them taken out of context.

And even beside all that, what good does it do any of you to condemn a fallen believer anyway? There is no use for such measures and it's not good for your internals.

Strawman, since I am not (nor have I seen anyone else here do) condemning anyone to hell. It isn't my place to do so. That is the roll of the Son of Man. We are here not speaking of people's final destiny, but speaking of a model of justification, that just doesn't hold up to the Bible.

The story you are told is that after 1 or 2 admonishments is to cut somebody loose. The problem is that every sect has a different admonishment list that is in fact SELF constructed, and in that they have fallen into a judgment trap themselves.

I've been told nothing of the sort, another strawman.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Osas Oasis

 

[South Bound]

Hum. Me I read the Bible and did come up with the right conclusion. OSAS can only be justified, by completely ignoring large portions of Scripture. Whatever model of justification one uses, it needs to take into account all of Scripture and not just a few short passages, with many of them taken out of context.

I have a very simple question for you. So simple, in fact, that it only requires a "yes" or "no" answer:

Will Christ, who began a good work in the regenerate, complete it?

Only if we allow Him to.

So, God has to ask permission from His creation before He does something?

Why does the Bible say He who began a good work in you will complete it? Why doesn't it qualify that? Why doesn't it say "...will complete it if we let Him?" or "...will complete it if He's powerful enough to overcome us"?

No my God is so powerful, merciful, and loving that He does not need to nor is willing to impose His will upon us.

You say he's powerful, but how powerful can he be, when you say you're more powerful?

God wants not automatons, nor slaves; He wants children. He wants a people who serve Him because they love Him freely.

So, we can't love God if Christ keeps that which the Father has given Him?

So I got one question back at you. Why do you think God needs slaves for?

Not only a strawman, but a strawman that demonstrates a complete ignorance of regeneration and justification.

Yes if we are willing to allow it. No if not.

I see. So then, your god is so weak and pathetic that he has to ask your permission to do something?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I have a very simple question for you. So simple, in fact, that it only requires a "yes" or "no" answer:

Will Christ, who began a good work in the regenerate, complete it?

Except that yes or no can't properly answer it. but let me try
Yes if we are willing to allow it. No if not.

 

[Erose]

I have a very simple question for you. So simple, in fact, that it only requires a "yes" or "no" answer:

Will Christ, who began a good work in the regenerate, complete it?

Only if we allow Him to.

I see. So then, your god is so weak and pathetic that he has to ask your permission to do something?

No my God is so powerful, merciful, and loving that He does not need to nor is willing to impose His will upon us. God wants not automatons, nor slaves; He wants children. He wants a people who serve Him because they love Him freely.

So I got one question back at you. Why do you think God needs slaves for?

 

[squint]

So a question for you then, if a believe looses their salvation temporarily in your view, and he dies, does he go to heaven or hell?

Without any doubt, heaven. Any person that calls upon Jesus to save them is saved and Jesus does not abandon them.

This does not preclude them from being deceived later. Every time any of us sin (and we all do if we are truthful) we are in fact deceived. Unbelief is just another form of deception and sin. None of us were granted complete immunity from sin nor were we promised sinless perfection of the flesh, mind or heart after belief.

The most you as an RCC member in any case can measure is only that such a person MIGHT NOT be saved. This is not and can not be an absolute even in your own system. And might not logically also includes might be.

Judas Iscariot comes to mind. Of course you will say, well he never was saved to begin with;

I wouldn't come to that conclusion. We all can read that Satan entered Judas and in that GODS WILL was assuredly performed because the events of Jesus Christ, His Arrival, His Birth, His Death, His Resurrection were ALL set solidly in writing in the Word of God long long prior. No one could have changed a single thing that happened.

So, Judas performed his exact role. Why would I deride a man who could do nothing else? Had Judas not been deceived then the entire calendar of events could have possibly derailed.

The last thing I would do would be to condemn Judas when obviously SATAN was fully in play IN Judas. There is more to view than just JUDAS isn't there? How about giving Judas the benefit of the doubt and understand that what happened was by DIVINE PLAN?

but this man walked with Jesus Christ for at least three years; are you telling me that you believe that Judas during those three years was pretending to be saved? I don't buy it. Thinking that way is just imposing your understanding into those passages of Scripture, and nothing more.

What happened to Judas was not much different than what happened to Peter. Satan also spoke from Peter's lips. Peter was also led to deny Jesus. Both men were in reality showing us the validity of Mark 4:15. If you go read it you should see this fact immediately. And at that point you should see neither man acted alone, but were in concert with SATAN exactly as Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables set forth.

I consider these events to be strictly in the Hands of God in any case.

Interesting point; but there is one issue that I think you are missing here. Jesus says in another passage if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move mountains. Thus for people to work miracles and cast out devils requires faith.

I don't doubt that. Faith also 'empowers' one to speak truthfully, even if the conclusions are NOT personally beneficial. I find Paul for example to be startlingly truthful to his own detriment, and I take his examples for my own plumb line on the not so good side of the ledgers.

Faith in the name of Jesus does it not? Thus if these people are casting out devils and working miracles, having faith is not the problem. Something else is missing.

How we view believers will affect how we read the scriptures. As you can tell by now I accept the fact of Mark 4:15 most seriously (as well as all the seed parables) and that has led me to the conclusion that man is not alone, but Satan enters the heart where the Word is sown. I do not then see 'just and only' MAN.

So when I read about 'casting out devils' and those same people being told 'depart from me, I never knew you' I know EXACTLY whom Jesus is speaking to and it is NOT the person, but Satan (or devils.) In this way my sight is beneficial to the believer and detrimental to Satan.

I find then LIFE in every Word of God, even in the BAD WORDS, as it is meant to be seen. A blinded person will not and can not see or understand how that can be.

But the problem with OSAS is that you believe you are saved by faith ALONE. Yet these people have faith, if not they wouldn't be able to work miracles and cast out devils, which requires having faith.

You're missing the point. Paul cast out devils, yet Paul admitted by his own lips the following:

-indwelling sin was not him
-he had every form of concupiscence enter his mind in adverse response to the law
-he had evil present with him
-he had a devil, a messenger of Satan in his own flesh
-he was the chief of sinners

That to me is a very impressive list of HONEST CONCLUSIONS.

And I believe Paul was taught these facts personally from direct revelation from our LORD, Jesus Christ. You won't find too many, if any men in the pulpits today that could fess up to Paul's honesty.

Which is unfortunate. Paul knew our enemies. Paul knew the message of the Gospel is to TURN people from the power of who???

Uh, yeah. SATAN. And yes, this is a real Gospel message with a REAL bad actor in play as a fact.

So to justify your position I think you need to disprove one or two assertions here. 1) That people can cast out devils and work miracles without having faith or 2) Something more is needed for salvation than just faith.

It's laid out above and should be easy to see, if you are allowed by God to see. That is part of the mystery of faith. Not everybody will get it and they will not be allowed to get it. There is nothing I can do about that. I am obligated to speak truthfully, so that is what I try to do.

All believers may sin, but not all believers sin the same.

Never said they did, but all sin has one common denominator and that is that it is OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

You can differentiate all you please, but in any case of measures the devil is not obtaining grace, forgiveness, mercy or any other good thing from God no matter the DEGREE of DECEPTION he (or his own) deploy.

Nor are all believers equally in sin. We are not dung hills covered in snow. You have tried to make that assertion before that we all sin, and it really doesn't matter if we sin, since it really is the devil doing it and not us; and it is just a false statement.

As stated prior, how you are led to view MAN will affect how you see this matter. I don't see 'just man' and I don't by the Word.

I also learned this lesson the hard way. When I went forward in the RCC church after confession, contrition, absolution, etc etc. You know, all the ritual stuff I considered myself then CLEAN ENOUGH to receive communion. And being the on guard kind of person I am as a believer, always 'guarding myself' from sinning, I would invariably get attacked, internally, by my own thoughts.

This eventually caused me to probe deeper into these subjects because I WANTED TO CONTROL my thoughts. I found out the same things Paul found out for himself. And that did change my course of events. I knew then that when I opened my mouth for communion, it was not 'just me' standing there. I was also EATING DEATH AND CONDEMNATION to SATAN.

There is how I divide and take my bread to this day.

Jesus throughout the Gospels, warns people not to sin.

Yet none of us can say we have no sin and be in truth. (1 John 1:8)

I understand today that 'we' as believers ARE forgiven. Satan is not. So both forgiveness of God in Christ and UNFORGIVENESS AND CONDEMNATION from God transpires in the same body.

This is also why each of us bears our own respective cross. Because we are also carrying that working to JUDGMENT in our body. And the appointment with our own respective CROSS is unavoidable and inevitable.

His Apostles in their various writings in the NT, warns people not to sin. If we can't keep ourselves from sinning, because it is really the devil making us; then why did Jesus and His Apostles, warn us so frequently to avoid sin? Something in your theology is just not jiving with the Biblical record.

You'll just have to consider what is being said. It may come to you. It may not. Not my call. Anyone who is led into wrestling with this subject is led so directly by God in Christ.

Not only that I am still waiting for someone to explain away Ezekiel 18; which no one has touched yet.

You might realize that an entire nation of people, Israel, were blinded by Gods Direction and done so by the god of this world, the spirit of stupor, the spirit of blindness, the spirit that can not hear, and they were so in your behalf by GOD.

Be careful how you measure.

s

 

[Erose]

Seriously what is the problem with understanding that God wants us to be free. He doesn't want slaves, but children? Scripture is full of this teaching, so how can you miss it?

Mat 17: [24b] ... And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying: What is thy opinion, Simon? The kings of the earth, of whom do they receive tribute or custom? of their own children, or of strangers? [25] And he said: Of strangers. Jesus said to him: Then the children are free.

Jn 8: [31] Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. [32] And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33] They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free? [34] Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. [35] Now the servant abideth not in the house for ever; but the son abideth for ever.

Gal 4: [31] So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free.

 

[Standing Up]

So a question for you then, if a believe looses their salvation temporarily in your view, and he dies, does he go to heaven or hell?

Judas Iscariot comes to mind. Of course you will say, well he never was saved to begin with; but this man walked with Jesus Christ for at least three years; are you telling me that you believe that Judas during those three years was pretending to be saved? I don't buy it. Thinking that way is just imposing your understanding into those passages of Scripture, and nothing more.

Interesting point; but there is one issue that I think you are missing here. Jesus says in another passage if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move mountains. Thus for people to work miracles and cast out devils requires faith. Faith in the name of Jesus does it not? Thus if these people are casting out devils and working miracles, having faith is not the problem. Something else is missing.

But the problem with OSAS is that you believe you are saved by faith ALONE. Yet these people have faith, if not they wouldn't be able to work miracles and cast out devils, which requires having faith.

So to justify your position I think you need to disprove one or two assertions here. 1) That people can cast out devils and work miracles without having faith or 2) Something more is needed for salvation than just faith.

All believers may sin, but not all believers sin the same. Nor are all believers equally in sin. We are not dung hills covered in snow. You have tried to make that assertion before that we all sin, and it really doesn't matter if we sin, since it really is the devil doing it and not us; and it is just a false statement.

Jesus throughout the Gospels, warns people not to sin. His Apostles in their various writings in the NT, warns people not to sin. If we can't keep ourselves from sinning, because it is really the devil making us; then why did Jesus and His Apostles, warn us so frequently to avoid sin? Something in your theology is just not jiving with the Biblical record.

Not only that I am still waiting for someone to explain away Ezekiel 18; which no one has touched yet.

Which sin will cause the falling away such that it is impossible to renew them to repentance?

 

[Erose]

Which sin will cause the falling away such that it is impossible to renew them to repentance?

That isn't a question that comes from my post, SU. According to the other poster, repentance is no longer needed, after our initial salvation. Because all sin comes from the devil, and thus we are not truly responsible for the sins we committed.

But since you asked, when it comes to my faith tradition, we have Sacraments, that help people, who have fallen away from God's grace through mortal sin, to be reconciled with Him. So the answer to your question there isn't any, except for the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.