Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

Well, it might appear that His Abilities are strictly in accordance with your own abilities, which I doubt, for the record. I didn't see the crown of thorns on either of our heads.

s

My salvation has nothing to do with my abilities, and never claimed so. I think the problem here is that your understanding of my posts are clouded by what you have been told that my Church teaches. For instance, you might be surprised when I tell you that the idea that one can EARN their salvation, has been condemned as a heretical belief by my Church for nearly 1500 years.

The biggest difference I see between the Catholic view and the OSAS view is that in OSAS once someone accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior their journey is done, and now life is a waiting game. The Catholic view is that once someone accepts Jesus as His personal Lord and Savior, their journey begins.

 

[squint]

My salvation has nothing to do with my abilities, and never claimed so.

Great! Then we are both left to observe His Abilities, which I personally consider to be well beyond satisfactory.

I think the problem here is that your understanding of my posts are clouded by what you have been told that my Church teaches.

Well, that's a whole nuther fish isn't it? It is true that none of the people in your sect are advised that they are saved, only that they have reasonable assurances that they might be, which also includes, by observation, might not as a possibility. So that is what you have to believe according to 'them' OR ELSE.

For instance, you might be surprised when I tell you that the idea that one can EARN their salvation, has been condemned as a heretical belief by my Church for nearly 1500 years.

I actually have quite a lot of fun with RCC positions. For example it might interest you to know that I agree with quite a LOT of their positions.

Salvation attainable by those who do not know Christ by their good works is just OUTSTANDING imho. And I too believe that! Imagine that?!

So you can deny that is the case, but I think they think otherwise.

The biggest difference I see between the Catholic view and the OSAS view is that in OSAS once someone accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior their journey is done,

I'm not aware that is the case other than we have taken the chip of the possibility of eternal torture in fire off the table for ourselves in order to serve and be and LIVE IN LOVE. I have a hard time loving a God who might at any minute change His Mind based on my obviously unable performances to save myself and then decide to burn me alive forever based on the very shortcomings and sins He came to save me from.

and now life is a waiting game. The Catholic view is that once someone accepts Jesus as His personal Lord and Savior, their journey begins.

If that journey means keeping your head down and ducking the firey swipe, I'd say they have you right where they want you. In doubt. I just don't find that life to be acceptable for me. It's just not LIFE. It's only fear for ones hide. It's not service to God. It's a form of brown nosing to save ones personal hide.

My personal hide is not worth saving, for the record. But He Will CHANGE me as He has so promised and that change will never stop happening until God Is All in All. You'll be on the same track so whatever. I wish you no ill will for doubting and hope you are not offended by my thinking you are OSAS as well, even if you don't. I do so because it's good for my innards to think that way, so it's self serving, I admit.

s

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

It is? Interesting for I find in my Bible. Jesus makes such a statement here in. Mat 19: [16] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [20] The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?

[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. [22] And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. [23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

He says it again in the Gospel of John during His "I am the Vine" discourse :
[6] If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. [7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father' s commandments, and do abide in his love.

Notice how the disciples asked, "who then can be saved"? No one can be saved without a blood atonement. Prior to Jesus, a lamb sacrifice was needed for the remission of sins. However, Jesus became the Lamb of God, the sacrificial lamb. In Him, we have forgiveness.

You see, due to the sinful nature of man, we are going to sin and even break the commandments. This, I believe, is why the disciples asked who could be saved, as to expect yourself to never break the commandments in order to be saved is impossible. We aren't perfect like Jesus. We are born with a sinful nature.

I also believe that in the gospel of John, Jesus may have been speaking about a heart or lifestyle that honors to keep the commandments, not that you will never slip up and break the commandments. After all, comparing it to Matthew, it is made clear that if it were up to keeping the commandments, all of us would fall short. This is why a blood sacrifice was necessary before Jesus death and resurrection. The blood was a purification of sin. After Jesus death on the cross and resurrection, that sacrifice has been paid through belief, repentance, and acceptance of the Lord, Jesus Christ. The sacrificial Lamb of God has paid it all. This is why Jesus came to this world to make the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[SolomonVII]

The problem with believe in a good Godin any religious system will always be the problem of evil, and more specifically the problematic relationship between perfect justice and perfect mercy. Even in the relativistic world of humans, where perfection does not really exist, the balance between mercy and justice is the source of never ending debate and dispute. Those who stress justice come off as col-blooded, and those who stress mercy come under the axiom of "those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind", as if the cries of the martyrs are worth nothing in the equation.
OSAS is just one more kick at the can of how to achieve the equitable balance, that goes much further to the side of mercy than some might like, but not far enough for others.

 

[NorrinRadd]

It is? Interesting for I find in my Bible. Jesus makes such a statement here in. Mat 19: [16] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [20] The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?

[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. [22] And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. [23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

He says it again in the Gospel of John during His "I am the Vine" discourse :
[6] If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. [7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father' s commandments, and do abide in his love.

Yes, and in John 6 He said that no actual "works" are necessary to obtain eternal life, only believing in Him. Paul taught that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works, and in Gal. 3 that we complete our salvation the way we began it -- not by works, but by believing what we heard. He taught that the entirety of the law of decrees, ordinances, commandments was abolished, nailed to the cross, hung on the tree.

 

[SolomonVII]

....
If that journey means keeping your head down and ducking the fiery swipe, I'd say they have you right where they want you. In doubt. I just don't find that life to be acceptable for me. It's just not LIFE. It's only fear for ones hide. It's not service to God. It's a form of brown nosing to save ones personal hide.

My personal hide is not worth saving, for the record. But He Will CHANGE me as He has so promised and that change will never stop happening until God Is All in All. You'll be on the same track so whatever. I wish you no ill will for doubting and hope you are not offended by my thinking you are OSAS as well, even if you don't. I do so because it's good for my innards to think that way, so it's self serving, I admit.

With the idea of eternal hell looming over all of us, and this the perfect justice of a absolutely good God, is it any wonder that torture and burnings and any manner of horrendous punishments have been the typical forms of Christian justice until very recently? This is not a criticism against Christian forms either, for in truth it the same for virtually any civilization and tribe that has ever existed.

The idea of prison reform and cruel and unusual punishment comes from the same mindset that can no longer logically abide by perfect justice being compatible with eternal torture.

This is not to say whether OSAS is true or false theology, but merely to note how all theology has real world consequences. And even if many Christians do not believe in the theology, even they, along with many non-Christians too, judge the fruits of such a theology very favorably indeed.

 

[Albion]

The problem with believe in a good Godin any religious system will always be the problem of evil, and more specifically the problematic relationship between perfect justice and perfect mercy. Even in the relativistic world of humans, where perfection does not really exist, the balance between mercy and justice is the source of never ending debate and dispute. Those who stress justice come off as col-blooded, and those who stress mercy come under the axiom of "those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind", as if the cries of the martyrs are worth nothing in the equation.
OSAS is just one more kick at the can of how to achieve the equitable balance, that goes much further to the side of mercy than some might like, but not far enough for others.

Could it be that the uniqueness--and therefore the majesty--of the Christian Gospel is that this mold you've described in connection with other religions is broken once and for all by a remarkable act of God? One thing that is clear about the sacrifice of the Cross is that it went totally beyond all conventional thinking concerning Man and God.

 

[South Bound]

The biggest difference I see between the Catholic view and the OSAS view is that in OSAS once someone accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior their journey is done

So, what about us Reformed believers, who don't believe there's any such thing as "accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior" and believe that justification is followed by a lifetime of sanctification?

Do you really think that such straw men as you've presented help dispel the notion that Catholics cannot be trusted to represent Protestant beliefs honestly?

The Catholic view is that once someone accepts Jesus as His personal Lord and Savior, their journey begins.

And a lifetime of works and sacraments and then, if you're lucky, you get to go to Purgatory to expiate your own sins.

 

[SolomonVII]

Could it be that the uniqueness--and therefore the majesty--of the Christian Gospel is that this mold you've described in connection with other religions is broken once and for all by a remarkable act of God? One thing that is clear about the sacrifice of the Cross is that it went totally beyond all conventional thinking concerning Man and God.

Yes, most definitely.
The cross was not just literally the death of God. It was the metaphorical death of God too, which is at least as important. God simply can no longer be seen in the same way after the Cross, and the consequences of that will be revolutionary as people perpetually reform themselves to what the Death of God tells us about who God is and who we are in relationship to a God such as that.

 

[Setyoufree]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal? That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

Yes...grace is by faith and as long as you are under the umbrella of faith you stand saved....

BUT, if you abandon your faith you go back under the curse. Who says? Paul time and time again.....

 

[Setyoufree]

Yes...grace is by faith and as long as you are under the umbrella of faith you stand saved....

BUT, if you abandon your faith you go back under the curse. Who says? Paul time and time again.....

Here's Paul:

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemieshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-51 in your mindshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-52 because ofhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-f your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciledhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-53 you by Christ's physical bodyhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-54 through death to present youhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-55 holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusationhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-56-- 23 if you continuehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-57 in the faith, establishedhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-58 and firm, not moved from the hopehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-59 held out in the gospel.

 

[South Bound]

Yes...grace is by faith and as long as you are under the umbrella of faith you stand saved....

BUT, if you abandon your faith you go back under the curse. Who says? Paul time and time again.....

How does one who has been regenerated, that is, been crucified to the old nature, made alive with the new nature, turn their back on the faith? Wouldn't that contradict the defining characteristic of the new nature?

Also, you say "Paul says this time and time again", but I can't help but notice that you don't actually give any examples of Paul saying this. Why is that?

 

[Setyoufree]

Also, you say "Paul says this time and time again", but I can't help but notice that you don't actually give any examples of Paul saying this. Why is that?

Just did....And when I do they will be denied....You'll say, it doesn't mean that.....So it is useless.

What you once savers want is a God who forces His will on you so that you can never be lost. You are insecure....

 

[South Bound]

Just did

No, you didn't. That verse says nothing about losing salvation.

And when I do they will be denied....You'll say, it doesn't mean that.....So it is useless.

Then grow up, be a man, and explain why you believe they do mean that.

What you once savers want is a God who forces His will on you so that you can never be lost. You are insecure....

Your childish personal insults are duly noted.

 

[Setyoufree]

No, you didn't. That verse says nothing about losing salvation.



Then grow up, be a man, and explain why you believe they do mean that.



Your childish personal insults are duly noted.

You are in denial....So be it....

 

[Albion]

Yes...grace is by faith and as long as you are under the umbrella of faith you stand saved....

BUT, if you abandon your faith you go back under the curse. Who says? Paul time and time again.....

Your mistake is in reading Paul to say that it's up in the air what will happen, even if you have Faith....when what he's doing is telling them the consequence of not having real Faith in the first place. After all, it's not as though he's speaking to a group of people he knows consists totally of true believers.

 

[South Bound]

You are in denial....So be it....

Childish personal insults are not a good substitute for a thoughtful response.

 

[Setyoufree]

Your mistake is in reading Paul to say that it's up in the air what will happen, even if you have Faith....when all he'dsdoing is telling them the consequence of not having real Faith in the first place.

Doesn't say that....You are twisting.

Would you like to know what Peter states of folks who twist Paul?

 

[Setyoufree]

Childish personal insults are not a good substitute for a thoughtful response.

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-20 13 But encourage one another daily,http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-21 as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-22 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmlyhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-23 till the end the confidencehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/3.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-24 we had at first.

 

[Setyoufree]

Matt 10:21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parentshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/10.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-21 and have them put to death.http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/10.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-22 22 All men will hate you because of me,http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/10.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-23 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved