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A point well worth making. Superficial thinkers and those who are out to deliberately misrepresent the matter often insist that any slip-up committed by a saved person instantly eradicates his standing with God. .
Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved,
So what? SDA's consider Roman Catholicism to be the source and dispenser of almost everything that's wrong
You are SDA aren't you?
I will leave with this from Ezekiel chapter 18:
Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved,
None of the above citings make the claims you are making they claim and in fact Romans 11 (in particular vs. 25-32) makes an exact opposite conclusion,.
Well its very interesting that you an SDA would refer to Gal 5:4 in reference to loss of salvation. Have you turned from the law?Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists -- all agree to some extent that the Bible is correct on this subject and that the man-made Calvinist tradition of osas is simply a flawed tradition.
Romans 11 points to the loss of salvation clearly as does Ezek 18 as does Matt 18 as does Matt 6 as does 1Cor 6 as does Gal 5:4 as do many other texts in scripture.
(Not sure if Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists have both figured out that the Bible does not support OSAS -- does anyone here know the answer to that?)
Just because the RCC is wrong on some points does not mean it has to be wrong on every point.
my guess is that even you know they teach that Christ was born of a virgin and was bodily resurrected on week day 1.
Proof that they do get some points right -- I thought everyone was up to par on this basic debate principle and in fact this forms the entire basis for the CF discussion. It is why they can happen at all.
Surely this is not "news".
in Christ,
Bob
Well its very interesting that you an SDA would refer to Gal 5:4
On the contrary -- OSAS does not survive even one of the chapters listed - as Erose has pointed out from Ezek 18 -- and I will point out in Romans 11.
[FONT="]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT="]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
[FONT="]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
[/FONT]
Arminianism is a form of Calvinism, so you might say that. I was referring to the older and more popular Roman Catholic theological system; and I've been clear about that so many times that I'm surprised that anyone would be in the dark about it still.Armnians do not claim that a person is lost each time they sin.
Galatians 5:4 speaks of those who have been "severed from Christ, - Fallen From Grace" -- a point that OSAS does not survive.
And of course in 1Cor 7:19 Paul says to the saints "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".
As you rightly pointed out - OSAS does not survive a sola scriptura test of scripture ==- in this case Ezek 18. And Matt 18 reads just like it in the NT.
Yeah. Not surprised that no OSAS'er has commented upon Ezek 18 have they? Ignoring it is the best option for them I guess. A whole chapter that completely debunks this false man-made belief of eternal security.
Very true. So really how can someone who truly believe that they are saved, really know that they are saved? Do they really think that these people who eventually backslid, didn't truly believe as they do that they were saved? Do they really think that the backsliders were really just deceiving everyone, while they knew that they themselves weren't truly saved? Really what kind of person would do that? Can you truly have someone join a church and pretend to get saved, so they what fit in? Then they go to a church for 5,10, 20+ years, and listen to a preacher speak of stuff they don't believe in, and go to Sunday school and learn what they don't believe in, and even sometimes become preachers and teachers and thus preach and teach on things that they don't believe in? Quite honestly that is just an insane proposition.That is straw man speculation and is refuted easily from the Arminian POV. Arminians can know for certain that they are saved today but cannot know for certain that they will choose to remain saved ten years from today.
The OSAS Christian cannot even know that - because under OSAS they often teach that they must retro delete today's assurance if ten years from today they give up the faith and choose to live like the devil.
in Christ,
Bob
From where I stand, I have greater assurance, truthful assurance by far, than OSAS'ers can ever have.
How can you not see it? Ezekiel 18 is plainly spelled out in the most methodical language.Two people can read Ezek 18 and infer entirely different things. I see nothing in Ezek 18 that says saved people who are subsequently blinded by unbelief will be tortured in fire for all of eternity. If you think you see that there I'd say it's more of a Rorschach test than a reality of presentation. Just a reflection of what is within, as all scripture is.
s
How can you not see it? Ezekiel 18 is plainly spelled out in the most methodical language.
In case you missed the obvious, we ALL DIE because of sin Erose. This has nothing to do with being burned alive forever.19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
I truly cannot see how someone can disregard the "he shall die" parts of this passage.
No it is a greater assurance to me that I know at all times what my relationship with my God is. I know when I am in the state of mortal sin, and I know when I am in the state of Sanctifying grace. That knowledge gives me assurance.Sure Erose. It's greater assurance to you that you might be saved?
lol with that kind of logic.
That is your opinion and it is a false one. The orthodox view, is the view of Scripture and has been taught from the beginning. This idea of OSAS, is a very new construct, and when it comes to Christianity, I stay away from new ideas.I think most of orthodoxy openly threatens the salvation of all other faithful. They only avoid outright threat by the deployment of the term MAYBE but their MAYBE is clearly on the table for everyone inclusive of their own membership.
This doesn't make much sense, and obviously you don't understand the canonization process when it comes to Saints. Saints come from every walk of life, from the rich and the poor, from religious, priests, bishops, and laypeople, from the old and the young, from those who lived and died for Christ, to those you just lived for Him. Most saints never were trained in seminaries, but lived their lives for God, and belittling their lives is very poor indeed.Yet, when they chose to have exceptions (usually for their trained elite) they manage to come up with enough proof of works to make them a saint as an example for the wanna be saints.
s
So you don't know what the second death is do you?Erose, what you think you see does not even exist. There are ZERO statements below that state a believer who subsequently falls in the sin of unbelief will burn alive forever.
It doesn't exist. Yet you think you see it. In reality what is 'in you' is being reflected and nothing more.
In case you missed the obvious, we ALL DIE because of sin Erose. This has nothing to do with being burned alive forever.
Nothing.
That sight from your end is non-existent and entirely inferred from within your own heart. It is assuredly not written.
s
Erose, what you think you see does not even exist. There are ZERO statements below that state a believer who subsequently falls in the sin of unbelief will burn alive forever.
It doesn't exist. Yet you think you see it. In reality what is 'in you' is being reflected and nothing more.
In case you missed the obvious, we ALL DIE because of sin Erose. This has nothing to do with being burned alive forever.
Nothing.
That sight from your end is non-existent and entirely inferred from within your own heart. It is assuredly not written.
s
From the same passage, which you apparently missed:
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
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