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Why do some Christian's dismiss evolution?

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stumpjumper

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QuantumFlux said:
This is where you keep screwing over your ideas. It is easy to consider day 5 of 2 million as the beginning, anyone can see that. However, I dont know anyone who can see year 3 billion of anything as the beginning.

The point is that it is still not the beginning. Also, in Greek thought (which Mark was written in) there are two types of time (Keiros and Chronos not sure of the spelling on either).

Just because you see 13 billion years as wasted space because lets be honest YEC= humans were created on day six of total time and with what we know of the world we are do not arrive until after 99% of our known history has elapsed. But, that means nothing to God because God is outside of time and the evolution of life which God is in charge of could go on for 500 billion years more.

Plus, I would not be at all surprised if the 13 billion year figure was wrong. There is some scientific validity to the theory that the fine-structure constant is and has been slowing down. Which would mean that the speed of light has been slowing down. Look up a June or July issue of Discover magazine.
 
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stumpjumper

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Critias said:
I think stating the "context" is marriage is incorrect. The subject is marriage.

You are most certainly nit-picking a TE. I feel oppressed ;)

But the subject defines the literal context. If the subject was Origins theology then it would be a different matter. Let's say dopey Peter said "Master. Did the earth really come into existence in the exact manner that the First Book of Moses states or is it more complex?" In that case the subject would be our biological origin. There is no such subject in the entire New Testament so I guess its not that important and we should leave it to the biologists. :D
 
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Critias

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stumpjumper said:
You are most certainly nit-picking a TE. I feel oppressed ;)

LOL! Sorry about that, but I think it would confuse those who don't quite grasp that context and subject are not the same.

stumpjumper said:
But the subject defines the literal context. If the subject was Origins theology then it would be a different matter. Let's say dopey Peter said "Master. Did the earth really come into existence in the exact manner that the First Book of Moses states or is it more complex?" In that case the subject would be our biological origin. There is no such subject in the entire New Testament so I guess its not that important and we should leave it the biologists. :D

:D
 
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shernren

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If I understand you correctly, this wouldn't really work with the grammar of the statement. As I said, the words are singular meaning 1 creation, 1 beginning. Evolution suggests multiple creations and beginnings.

Nope, if "creation"="universe" and "beginning"="God's preparation of the universe for the existence of sentient humans who can have relationship with Him". Both are singular words then, albeit ones describing very big things. In this case "beginning" would describe a single act of God lasting a few billion years and finishing when the complete universe was physically ready for the advent of man.

This is where you keep screwing over your ideas. It is easy to consider day 5 of 2 million as the beginning, anyone can see that. However, I dont know anyone who can see year 3 billion of anything as the beginning.

That depends on what "beginning" means. What you are taking beginning as is the chronological terminus of something, i.e. the earliest time that something was around. However, especially in the light of what Critias said (whether or not he intended it to be taken in that light) it may be that "beginning" is instead to be used as a noun form of "begin". In other words the "beginning" of creation is the act of God to begin the universe, i.e. to prepare the universe for human life.

You see it as tearing the universe apart, I see it as but a mere wave of a hand, much like he held the sun for the extra day. Science would suggest how many variables that would screw up and how damaging it would be to gravity, the rotation of the earth and yadda yadda, but for God it is a mere whim to hold the sun in the sky.

So why couldn't God have created a sentient life form that could survive in a 6,000 year old universe? YECs make it sound like a furry bipedal ape body based on carbon chemistry is the only one that can hold a sentient mind. Is God really that boring? ;)

Some how you don't see the obvious conflicts in this. We have all this primitive life and then finally an ape has a homo sapian and God mystically whisps this son of an ape off to paradise. Where there is no progression of agriculture, God simply appoints him to the task of working the garden of eden.

I suppose this is after he raises Adam so that he is sinless until he eats the fruit. But wait, Eve? Was she really taken from the rib or was she a daughter of an apeman like Adam, was she whisked away later?

Yep, some serious issues with that view.

Easy. God guided evolution until the development of the hominids, maybe Homo erectus or something. Then He took that physical body and transformed it into a complete, holistic being with access to the spiritual realities. Created a Garden of Eden for him. There was nothing else for him to mate with, certainly not those Homos, so God fashioned Eve out of his own biochemical and genetic makeup as a perfect partner.

It's quite ironic that a YEC should question a worldview which makes space for a real Adam. If anything, it should be the TEs shouting at me for being unscientific.

But the subject defines the literal context. If the subject was Origins theology then it would be a different matter. Let's say dopey Peter said "Master. Did the earth really come into existence in the exact manner that the First Book of Moses states or is it more complex?" In that case the subject would be our biological origin. There is no such subject in the entire New Testament so I guess its not that important and we should leave it to the biologists. :D

Haha! I think dopey Peter would've gotten stuck at "Stars can explode?" ;)
 
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Phospho

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First of all, I would suggest that you not mix quotes from different posters. There were many posts in your reply that did not belong to me, but mine was the majority. That being said, you have a lot to learn...


I have studied science and the evolutionary aspect of psuedo-science now for almost ten years, I am very much interested in science and am science-minded as you say you are. There is at least one difference between us...life experience.

I deal with forensics, and in forensics science we do science the way it is supposed to be done, according to the scientific method...you know, you make up a hypothesis based upon the given information that you have on a given subject, and then you perform experiments to either disprove, or prove that hypothesis. You make ASSUMPTIONS based upon peripheral evidence, and if those assumptions can not be codified as being real, you have to drop them or they throw off the entire investigation.

Here is where evolutionary theory has gone wrong...there were assumptions made that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. They fail, such as mutations give rise to new heritable genes that can take a species up and over the species barrier - you know, the gene pool of a species. this assumption has failed now even before it was an assumption...over 10,000 years of animal husbandry and breeding has demonstrated this. It is a fact.

Now, we have the FACT that the species barrier can not be broken.
We have the claim that the species barrier can be broken and give way to different species.
If the claim goes against the FACT, then the claim is wrong. Simple science, simple logic. The FACT that the species barrier cannot be broken throws the whole of TOE in the trash can and allows alternative interpretations of what we find in the fossil record.

The TOE is solely based one assumption upon another assumption upon another, the only problem with this is that every one of these assumptions are taught to you in textbooks as being facts, when they are not.

Blessings!
 
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gluadys

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Phospho said:
Here is where evolutionary theory has gone wrong...there were assumptions made that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. They fail, such as mutations give rise to new heritable genes that can take a species up and over the species barrier - you know, the gene pool of a species. this assumption has failed now even before it was an assumption...over 10,000 years of animal husbandry and breeding has demonstrated this. It is a fact.

Now, we have the FACT that the species barrier can not be broken.
We have the claim that the species barrier can be broken and give way to different species.
If the claim goes against the FACT, then the claim is wrong. Simple science, simple logic. The FACT that the species barrier cannot be broken throws the whole of TOE in the trash can and allows alternative interpretations of what we find in the fossil record.

I think the problem may be your understanding of evolution. Would you describe what you mean by "take a species up and over the species barrier"?

It is a FACT that speciation has been observed in nature and even in controlled experiments. It is also a FACT that ring species exist.

How do you reconcile these facts with your assertion that new species do not arise?
 
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Phospho

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I think the problem may be your understanding of evolution. Would you describe what you mean by "take a species up and over the species barrier"?



Hello! You know, each species has its genome. That genome codes for the specifics of that organism...you have genes that code for arms, fingers, eyes, liver...etc. Your genome does not have genes that code for gill, fins, feathers, hooves, etc., nor will it ever. The genome of a fish (whatever kind) will never gain by any means genes that code for feet, arms, antlers, etc. The species barrier...that is what is meant by the species barrier...a fish will always give rise to generations of fish, not amphibians or reptiles or any other such thing. Species barrier...the limits of the genome of each species that effectively prevents "speciation."


It is a FACT that speciation has been observed in nature and even in controlled experiments.


Contrary, it is a FACT that you cannot make such a claim because evolutionary taxonimists cannot even state with certainty (or anything close to it) what constitutes a species and what does not. In your mind, what are some of these examples of "observed" speciation events? Please, don't give me any of the bogus "speciation is a change in gene frequency within a population" nonsense, even Mayr says that is nonsensical rubbish.




It is also a FACT that ring species exist. How do you reconcile these facts with your assertion that new species do not arise?


I have not heard of "ring species" before, at least not put that way, anyway, what do you mean?


Blessings!


 
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shernren

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Sorry Phospho, but personally I have been slightly irritated when posters dump 3 or 4 posts in a row each responding to different people. To me it's easier on the server and on the reader to conglomerate them as one post. It's just a personal preference though. If you really want it I could post separately responding to you alone.

Your entire post to me was based on the "fact" that it is impossible to break the "species barrier". What is the species barrier? When asked to describe, an example you gave was that fish do not give rise to amphibia etc.. Other than that lobe-finned fish did indeed give rise to amphibia, the obvious error is that fish, amphibia and reptiles are classes. This is not just a semantic difference. Classes are a few taxonomical orders above species (class > order > family > genus > species) ; just because evolution doesn't create new classes at present doesn't mean it doesn't create new species.

Contrary, it is a FACT that you cannot make such a claim because evolutionary taxonimists cannot even state with certainty (or anything close to it) what constitutes a species and what does not. In your mind, what are some of these examples of "observed" speciation events? Please, don't give me any of the bogus "speciation is a change in gene frequency within a population" nonsense, even Mayr says that is nonsensical rubbish.

But a species is basically a reproductively isolated population of animals. The controversy is in the phrase "reproductively isolated", which can be controversial in the cases of hybrids, closely related species inhabiting different ranges etc. But not all speciations are controversial.

Good example of ring species, which can be found from Google: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_05.html which demonstrates speciation. What was one species at the top of the range became two at the bottom.
 
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Phospho

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Hey, good to hear from you again! Good dialogue, I love it!

Hey, what you said here...

Other than that lobe-finned fish did indeed give rise to amphibia

...is an example of what I posted to you earlier...an ASSUMPTION being taught as a fact. The ONLY way to prove that lobe-finned fish gave rise to amphibians would be to have demonstrable evidence linking in direct ancestor-descendant relationships, the supposed line from the fish to the amphibian. Where is it...there is none, and evolutionists cry out "Foul! The fossil record is incomplete!"

Oh, is it? Really? Why, then, do we have thousands of fossils of node species (those species on the tips of the phenograms and cladograms) and thousands of the supposed ancestral species...and none of the supposed species in between? I'll tell you why, because they aren't there. Cladists assume that they are there based upon the ASSUMPTION that evolution is a fact...and no other reason.

The ONLY way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that fish gave rise to amphibians (only one example out of thousands), is to find direct ancestor-descendant links between the two target species, whatever they may be. Until then, according to the scientific method (which many evolutionary scientists spurn), you have not demonstrated any such thing.



But a species is basically a reproductively isolated population of animals. The controversy is in the phrase "reproductively isolated", which can be controversial in the cases of hybrids, closely related species inhabiting different ranges etc. But not all speciations are controversial.

Actually, the controversy is in which definition of species one chooses to use, which to the evolutionists always depends upon the species...do you see that? The ONLY way to determine (according to Ernst Mayr) whether or not one specie can interbreed with another is by envitro fertilization...because a German Shepherd and a Toy Poodle are both of the same species, and if it were PHYSICALLY possible for them to copulate...they would produce fertile offspring - but physical copulation between the two (obviously because of size) is near impossible.

Until these kinds of experiments are done, no one can say for sure (unless the two organisms are strikingly and obviously different) that two organisms are different species, because they may only be sister organisms within a species. I found this interesteing, and the same above applies to it...

Good example of ring species, which can be found from Google: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/l...2/l_052_05.html which demonstrates speciation. What was one species at the top of the range became two at the bottom.


I noticed in the article that the writer stated..."These two populations co-exist in some areas but do not interbreed - and evidentally cannot do so."

How do these scientists (naturalists) know that these two populations do not interbreed? Just because they have not seen them in the act does not mean that they do not do so. And the "matter-of-fact" statement that followed..."AND EVIDENTALLY CANNOT DO SO"...what's up with that?

The word evidentally is a legal term, it means that there is ample evidence for one to make a positive statement of fact, it is equal to stating with the utmost confidence that the evidence dictates militantly that these two salamanders cannot interbreed...just as we can say militantly that, because of size constraints, German Shepherds and toy poodles cannot physically mate.

Unless you have more convincing evidence than what I read in the article you linked to, there is no argument for speciation in so-called "ring species". The ONLY way to prove their point in the article is to perform experiments on the compatibility of the two organisms...between you and me, I don't think you will see that happening on the evoltuion side of the debate because it would literally throw the whole pseudo-structure into a shambles.

If interbreeding compatibility experiments were done, the whole cladistic model would have to be totally re-vamped because they would find out that some of what they were calling different species would invariably end up as the same species, only variations upon an organismal theme ...but thanks, you educated me a little today! I love learning new things!


Blessings!
 
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shernren

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...is an example of what I posted to you earlier...an ASSUMPTION being taught as a fact. The ONLY way to prove that lobe-finned fish gave rise to amphibians would be to have demonstrable evidence linking in direct ancestor-descendant relationships, the supposed line from the fish to the amphibian. Where is it...there is none, and evolutionists cry out "Foul! The fossil record is incomplete!"

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm as I remember the person who wrote this used to post here (grmorton), and you can address any wannabe debunkings to him. :) Of course this is speculative, but while we may never have complete evidence, it is also wrong to say that there is no evidence whatsoever.

Actually, the controversy is in which definition of species one chooses to use, which to the evolutionists always depends upon the species...do you see that? The ONLY way to determine (according to Ernst Mayr) whether or not one specie can interbreed with another is by envitro fertilization...because a German Shepherd and a Toy Poodle are both of the same species, and if it were PHYSICALLY possible for them to copulate...they would produce fertile offspring - but physical copulation between the two (obviously because of size) is near impossible.

Until these kinds of experiments are done, no one can say for sure (unless the two organisms are strikingly and obviously different) that two organisms are different species, because they may only be sister organisms within a species. I found this interesteing, and the same above applies to it...

Hmm? Physical inability to mate is defined as a prezygotic barrier to creating a new species. If it was simply up to transfer of genetic material, then there wouldn't even be any species definition, since genetic material is routinely transferred between different organisms to produce viable offspring when it comes to transgenic experimentation.

I noticed in the article that the writer stated..."These two populations co-exist in some areas but do not interbreed - and evidentally cannot do so."

How do these scientists (naturalists) know that these two populations do not interbreed? Just because they have not seen them in the act does not mean that they do not do so. And the "matter-of-fact" statement that followed..."AND EVIDENTALLY CANNOT DO SO"...what's up with that?

The word evidentally is a legal term, it means that there is ample evidence for one to make a positive statement of fact, it is equal to stating with the utmost confidence that the evidence dictates militantly that these two salamanders cannot interbreed...just as we can say militantly that, because of size constraints, German Shepherds and toy poodles cannot physically mate.

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/15/7761 ... you're right, I have no idea how scientists determine that species so similarly and physically matched do not, in fact, hybridize. Anybody here know more and can help me out?

In any case, here is a clearer example:

http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~irwin/GreenishWarblers.html

with the song difference graphically showing that there is no mating recognition between the two species and therefore no mating between them.

Again, a species is defined loosely as "a reproductively isolated population of organisms". Just because gametes can fuse to form a viable zygote doesn't count as reproductive success. Horses and donkeys can produce viable zygotes that even grow to full term, but that doesn't make them one species instead of two.

Glad to know you're learning too. :)
 
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Phospho

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Hey, sorry it takes me so long to get back to the boards, I have a very demanding job...anyways...


Of course this is speculative, but while we may never have complete evidence, it is also wrong to say that there is no evidence whatsoever.


This is true, however, all the "evidence" for lobe-finned fish giving raise to amphibians is WHOLLY assumed, not just speculative. Especially in the light of the knowledge that there is no mechanism known (outside of evolutionary assumption) that can produce such change.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.


Hmm? Physical inability to mate is defined as a prezygotic barrier to creating a new species.


Doesn't that need to be re-worded? Shouldn't it say instead that physical inability to copulate between memebers of the same species creates a barrier to producing offspring? :scratch:


If it was simply up to transfer of genetic material, then there wouldn't even be any species definition, since genetic material is routinely transferred between different organisms to produce viable offspring when it comes to transgenic experimentation.


You missed the point. It is not a matter of transfer of genetic material, what I gave you was experimental means of determining whether or not two organisms belong to the same species...for example, current toxonomic guidelines state that american buffalo and cattle are two different species (because of evolutionary beliefs), however, bison and cattle are one and the same species because they produce viable offspring (cattalo) that in some places in the mid-west are being bred for commercial use.

Cows and buffalo come from the same parental "kind"...whatever that used to be. The fact that they look different has no bearing on the matter...but when you have organisms like these salamanders that look identicle with the exception of coloration and living environments...one is hard pressed to make any kind of evolutionary claims.


with the song difference graphically showing that there is no mating recognition between the two species and therefore no mating between them.


Yes, but again you have missed my point. The point is, whether they choose not to mate because they do not accept one another's songs IS NOT the point...I see girls every day of my life, and even before I was married...but I chose not to mate with a great many of them because of personal likes and dislikes...does that mean that they and I are not of the same species because I simply chose not to "go after" them?

No, it does not, and the same logic applies here unless one is predisposed to evolutionary story telling and doesn't think about what they are being told.
The fact that these two birds choose not to mate with one another does not mean that they are different species by ANY stretch of the imagination.


Again, a species is defined loosely as "a reproductively isolated population of organisms".


Hence the problem with this evolutionary definition...all evolutionary definitions fall short one way or another...solely in an attempt to codify the assumption that all organisms have descended from common ancestors with the evolutionary twist.

Descent from common ancestors is true until you get to the evolutionary twists...deer descend fro deer, to include elk, moose and others in the same catagory...but they did not descend from reptiles or fish...go figure.


Just because gametes can fuse to form a viable zygote doesn't count as reproductive success. Horses and donkeys can produce viable zygotes that even grow to full term, but that doesn't make them one species instead of two.


Hello! If gametes don't fuse, then they are not of the same kind...try looking for successful experiments fusing fish and deer gamets...you won't find any. Reproductive success is another feigned evolutionary run-around term, which is actually just as tautological as "survival of the fittest." And whenever you talk about reproductive success you invoke natural selection...which is another bogus idea. The only thing in nature that envelopes the all-in-all is chance. To be sure, there is a natural selection that takes place, but it is not the creative sustaining mechanism that evolutionists of the past have envisioned and played it out to be.


Blessings!
 
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shernren

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Don't be surprised that I miss your point when you weren't really clear about it. What I get now is that you are trying to prop up baraminology, or the study of taxonomy by created kinds instead of by traditional species-genus associations, right? To that end you are arguing that the traditional species concept of reproductive isolation is not able to adequately describe the biodiversity of life on earth, right? I'm not sure just what you're trying to argue here hence I'm quite lost.

If you're trying to argue along that line: yes, evolution doesn't create new kinds. It does, however, create new species, whether or not that matters to you. Creationists admit as much but say that evolution doesn't create new kinds. To which we also agree. But what can be pointed out is that all kinds actually fall under a single "kind" by their definitions, namely the "kind" of common descent from a single ancestor. For example, all vertebrates have Hox (homeobox) genes: doesn't this mean that they are all genetically related, and thus belong under a single created kind? Of course creationists don't like this. So they ignore the evidences for common descent like the ubiquity of DNA and Hox genes.

And exactly what evidence would be sufficient to convince you about the lobe-finned fish evolution? (Besides, of course, "a little more than whatever you show me.") I'm sure that many creationists, for example those who believe that the behemoth and leviathan were dinosaurs, would disagree. The absence of evidence that dinosaurs breathed fire doesn't represent the evidence of absence of firebreathing dinosaurs.
 
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stumpjumper

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Phospho said:
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Many Biblical scholars will disagree with you on that one. ;)

Can you provide historical evidence that the conquest of Canaan ever happened? In fact, a good quote from William Dever an Old Testament historian would say that: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." You cannot have it both ways. If you want hard evidence of all evolutionary pathways then the same can be asked of you as a Biblical literalist.

Shall I provide a list of all the Biblical claims that have no evidence?
 
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artybloke

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Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

It's nothing of the sort. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence of evidence, nothing more. There's an awful lot of speculation in the near east over which pile of stones belongs to Jericho, or Sodom, or whatever, and a lack of evidence to really confirm any of them. Does that mean that Jericho didn't exist, because we can't find it?
 
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Phospho

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artybloke said...
It's nothing of the sort. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence of evidence, nothing more. There's an awful lot of speculation in the near east over which pile of stones belongs to Jericho, or Sodom, or whatever, and a lack of evidence to really confirm any of them. Does that mean that Jericho didn't exist, because we can't find it?


I don't know where you are getting your archeological information, but your source is lacking big time. We not only know where Jericho is, it was discovereved in the 60's, and what was really amazing about the discovery is that the incident had taken place just as scripture says that it happened. The walls of Jericho fell "outward and flat"...walled cities' walls do not fall outward and flat - because of the dwellings built attached to the walls along the inside of such cities, the walls always fall inward and down. This event was a miraculous event, confirmed for us by the science of archeology.

Other than that, evidence is evidence, whether you reject it or not. Jericho (in sticking with your example) is evidenced by numerous historical documents, of which the Old Testament is ONLY one...there is plenty of evidence for Jericho... and any such evidence for lob-finned fish evolving into amphibians is wholly missing... because there is none.

How can I say matter-of-factly that there is none? Because genetics does not lend itself to evolutionary surmisings that mutations can do anything to a genome but destory its specificity. Demonstrate that mutations can build a limb on a species that does not have limbs, and you will have some good circumstantial evidence...until then, you have nothing for the argument but assumption. And that assumption is unwarranted by the peripheral evidence, and therefore illegitimate.

stumbpjumper says...

Many Biblical scholars will disagree with you on that one. ;)

Can you provide historical evidence that the conquest of Canaan ever happened? In fact, a good quote from William Dever an Old Testament historian would say that: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." You cannot have it both ways. If you want hard evidence of all evolutionary pathways then the same can be asked of you as a Biblical literalist.

Shall I provide a list of all the Biblical claims that have no evidence?


First...we are not talking about archeology on this forum.
Second...as I said above, I don't know what kind of biblical scholars or archeologists that you are reading, but there is not one peice of the old testament that has not been uncovered that I am aware of except for the crossing of the Red Sea, archeologically speaking. Plenty of written historical evidence, however.
Third, I am not asking for hard evidence of all evolutionary pathways, what I am looking for is any evidence for even one...and so far there is none. The ONLY way you can demonstrate evolution is by finding direct ancestor - descendant relational organisms...and evolutionary scientists have been trying to find such a thing for the last 150 years and have found none....hmmm.


shernren says...

... What I get now is that you are trying to prop up baraminology, or the study of taxonomy by created kinds instead of by traditional species-genus associations, right? To that end you are arguing that the traditional species concept of reproductive isolation is not able to adequately describe the biodiversity of life on earth, right? ... If you're trying to argue along that line: yes, evolution doesn't create new kinds. It does, however, create new species, whether or not that matters to you.


This is new to me...but I can see a point here. As long as the term "species" does not include organisms outside of the "kind's" genome. I have thought this for a great while, I think that the word species has misled a lot of people...perhaps even myself. A cow and a buffalo are of the same "kind" they have the same genetic compatibility, which means that they obviously descended from a parental stock, to this end I would agree that if we are calling a cow and a buffalo adifferent specie bound within the genome of the orginal kind...then I also agree.



Blessings!
 
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shernren

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Phospho

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shernren said:
http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/Finkelstein_Silberman022001.htm

Not as conclusive as you've been imagining, unfortunately.

What sort of evidence would convince you that lobe-finned fishes evolved into primitive land-dwelling tetrapods?


Hey, what's up?

Well, first of all, as I told stumpjumper earlier, biblical archeology is not the theme of this part of the forum, why some christians deny that the theory of evolution is a codified reality is the theme.

Second, what I know to be true is very conclusive. I did some research...if this web site holds to the same literary bias as its authors, then you are ingesting rabble from humanistic archeologists. For example, Jim West of the Quartz Hill School of Theology, as well as Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman (who wrote the article you linked to) are secular in their approach to biblical archeology. I have never met a secular archeologist who believed that the bible was anything but a target to disprove...in other words, they are just a biased against the facts of scripture as a full blown evolutionists is against any hint of creation in nature...even to their hurt (Jim West goes against the QHSoT's statement of faith, and will now probably be repremanded...for he authors humanistic articles de-throning God from holy writ while the school's statement of faith declares God's supreme eminance in scriptural matters).


But back to the point, concerning your question, I already gave you the answer...direct ancestor - descendant evidence, a linear descent of organisms that have been codified as forming the same kind of generational roots that we can trace your ancestors back down through time.

In other words, since we have hundreds of thousands of fossilized remains of the root and node tips of so-called phenograms and cladograms, one is very hard pressed to convince the thinking public that all of the literal thousands of step by step changes converting one organism and giving rise to another different organism really are just missing because the fossil record is "poor" and "incomplete."

If this is true, then God must be playing a joke on us...for EVERY evolutionary line and pathway is missing EVERY single piece of evidence at EVERY critical avenue of the fossil record except for the assumed root organism and EVERY assumed descendant organism at the nodes and tips of the phenogram?

If you believe that the fossil record really is incomplete and just happened to miss fossilizing such organisms all that the critical spots in evolutionary "historical narratives"...then you have more faith in the stories than they warrant.


Blessings!
 
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stumpjumper

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Phospho said:
First...we are not talking about archeology on this forum.
Second...as I said above, I don't know what kind of biblical scholars or archeologists that you are reading, but there is not one peice of the old testament that has not been uncovered that I am aware of except for the crossing of the Red Sea, archeologically speaking. Plenty of written historical evidence, however.
Third, I am not asking for hard evidence of all evolutionary pathways, what I am looking for is any evidence for even one...and so far there is none. The ONLY way you can demonstrate evolution is by finding direct ancestor - descendant relational organisms...and evolutionary scientists have been trying to find such a thing for the last 150 years and have found none....hmmm.

Have you read William Dever and some of his books? There are many biblical historians who do take a very biased approach to archaeology such as Thomas Thompson but there are also those who have a sincere faith and an unbiased approach to studying the past, such as William Dever.

Those who beleive the Bible is literally true in all parts are going to be just as biased as those who follow Thomas Thompson's line of reasoning. I follow the train of thought that if you are going to allow that absence of evidence in one area is not evidence of absence then you must apply that line of reasoning to all of the other areas of inquiry.

You cannot hold the science behind evolution to one standard and Biblical archaeology to another standard.

Here are some examples of someone who looks at Biblical archaeology in an unbiased manner: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20259

http://www.sdjewishjournal.com/stories/cover_jan04.html

Shernren's better on the science than me so you can talk to him about the descendent chains but holding evolution to a different standard than history is not an accurate way to approach the subject.

Blessings to you as well.
 
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shernren

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This is new to me...but I can see a point here. As long as the term "species" does not include organisms outside of the "kind's" genome. I have thought this for a great while, I think that the word species has misled a lot of people...perhaps even myself. A cow and a buffalo are of the same "kind" they have the same genetic compatibility, which means that they obviously descended from a parental stock, to this end I would agree that if we are calling a cow and a buffalo adifferent specie bound within the genome of the orginal kind...then I also agree.

What do you mean by genetic compatibility? After all, if I define genetic compatibility as, say, possessing complete and functional variants of the Hox genes, I think practically every other animal on the planet would be "genetically compatible" AFAIK, and that isn't saying a lot.

Be clear on whether you are talking about species or kinds. Remember that last discussion we were having?

Me: organisms of different species cannot mate.
You: maybe they are organisms of the same kind which cannot mate?

is like:

Me: Oranges are different from grapefruit.
You: But they're different kinds of citrus! There's a lot of similarities between them!

In both cases, I am comparing on the species level while you are comparing on the "kind" level. I have no complaints about this, really, as long as you are clear with your terms. Baraminology as I see it is one of the best-developed creationist science alternatives. (Which isn't actually saying much, come to think of it, but that's a shoutfest for another day. :p)

But back to the point, concerning your question, I already gave you the answer...direct ancestor - descendant evidence, a linear descent of organisms that have been codified as forming the same kind of generational roots that we can trace your ancestors back down through time.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm ... refuted? or not?

It would be really embarrassing to hold creationists to the same kind of perverse evidential standards. Since, for example, they say that about 90% of all fossils were killed in the flood, I have every right to ask them to show that the majority of all fossils died of drowning. (But, of course, there are easier ways to go about the issue of the flood.)

If this is true, then God must be playing a joke on us...for EVERY evolutionary line and pathway is missing EVERY single piece of evidence at EVERY critical avenue of the fossil record except for the assumed root organism and EVERY assumed descendant organism at the nodes and tips of the phenogram?

Mmm. So TEs aren't the only ones going around saying "If we are wrong then God lied". Don't let Critias catch ya! ;)
 
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Phospho

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Shernren...





A very interesting article, I just wish that I could get access to the original articles referenced in it. My first reaction is caution...remember living mosaic organisms, such as the platypus...and the thought that if platypus was only found fossilized evolutionists would be hailing it as a an inigma much as they do the supposed whale evolution fairy-tale. They would undoubtedly be calling it a link demonstrating that some mammals developed from birds or the other way around.

It is my contention that there are many mosaic organisms found within the fossil record, but being mosaic does NOT make them intermediate or transitory between major classes of organisms. Again back to the genetic discussion, the fact that all organisms clasified as deer (moose, elk, deer, etc...) can give way to creatures within the gene pool of that "kind" BUT cannot give way to any "kind" of organisms of "canine" (dogs, wolves, fox, etc...) demonstrates that there is a barrier there between major forms of organisms that cannot be crossed. Ernst Mayr recognizes this barrier and talks about it in many of his articles and books.

The mechanism of choice right now is mutations and natural selection...but it has been demonstrated for over 10,000 years that mutations (copying errors made during cell division...no other genetic change is truly a mutation, they are genetic changes, but they are NOT mutations) do not produce what evolutionists say they do...assume that they do and tell you that it is a fact instead of an assumption.

Another caution...too many times evolutionary paleontologists like to make a name for themselves by claiming to have found something no one else before them has. For example, a few years back one claimed to find a new kind of T-Rex in China, one that sported horns over its eyes. Now, this discovery is unique, only one, no others hae ever been found since that time, so I have to ask the question, did this T-Rex really have horns, or is the fossil somehow been "damaged" in some way by the processes of time to make it appear that it had horns?

Scientists say that Allosauras and T-Rex are two different species...but are they really? How can we tell? We can't, therefore they are doing science an injustice when they claim something that they cannot prove. The only way to prove it would be if we had some intact DNA and had the capability to perform "Jurassic Park" type experiments to see if they were genetically compatible. By that I mean egg and sperm in vitro experiments, if they can be fertilized and experience growth, then they belong to the same "kind". I say this because upon appearances, the skeletal and fossilized remains of both are almost identicle with few exceptions (if we found skeletal fossilized remains of a Chiuaua and German Shepherd, would evolutionists claim them as two different species or kinds?)

In my definition (I believe it is the definition used in creationist discussions), the word "kind" means the original pair of organisms made by God, which means that there were not moose, elk, deer, etc in that kind, but having been created with great genetic flexibility in variational genes, we now have moose, elk, etc. Elephants are one kind, dogs are another, cats another, deer still another, various kinds of fish, ampbibians, etc. The gene pools of these kinds give way to great variation which gives us the miriad of varations of organisms that we have today...but that same gene pool does not allow for jumps...elephants cannot give way to something that looks like a cat, fish cannot give way to amphibians because the genes that build an amphibian are not present in the genome of fish...nor can they be constructed to do so. Mutations do not act in that capacity.

A number of questions that I would put to the author of this article:

These are the only fish whose fin bones fit the tetrapod pattern of humerus, ulna and radius in the forelimb and femur, tibia and fibula in the hindlimb.

And that says what? In a straight forward interpretation (one that does not assume evolution to be true) all it shows is a repeated pattern, and that is found in numerous organisms. It proves nothing.

This fish also had lungs and nostrils

Did it really? Tell me how one can see nostrils and lungs in a solid rock fossil...was the tiny "hole" that may look like a nose hole really a nose hole, or was it only a hole......from what I have seen, we have very little "perfect" fossils. Bones have pores......?

368-Elginerpeton is a very primitive tetrapod found at Scat Craig, Scotland. Its lower jaw had coronoid fangs as did Panderichthys but they were smaller (Ahlberg 1991, p. 299). The very primitive limb bones found with it include an Ichthyostega-like tibia and an ilia and shoulder girdle comparable to the future Hynerpeton. There are no hands or feet found with the fossil so while the animal is quite tetrapod like in the parts which have been preserved, the final proof of its tetrapod status is missing. (Carroll, 1996, p. 19)


Many fossils are found in contorted and twisted fashion...as if in dire straights (they did not just lay down and die, some kind of catastrophic force contorted their bodies)...my point being, if they found no feet or hands, which means that this fossil was definitely torn apart some way, how do they know for a FACT that the limb bones that were only "found with it" (obviously not attached to the fossil or it would not have been worded thusly) belong to the other parts they are grouping together as one? They don't, they are assuming again....

368 MYR- Obruchevichthys was found in Latvia and Russia but is only known from a partial mandible. The similarity between this mandible and Elginerpeton caused Ahlberg (1991) to reclassify this as a tetrapod.


Only one partial sample and already we are classifying it? Come now, another example of rediculousness if ever I saw one. Too often evolutionists are ready to clasify anything, any part of anything, when in reality there is not enough information to classify anything at all. There are more findings that should remain as "i don't know" classification that what evolutionists give credit for.

365-363 MYR -Densignathus rowei--known only from the jaw but it is transitional between fish and amphibians.


Again, another example of jumping to conclusions and that without ample evidence. What is the differences between the lower jaw (of nothing that has ever been discovered before) and the lower jaw of an amphibian? How can you HONESTLY even think that you can classify such an artifact?

363 MYR-Ichthyostega-- Is the first animal with feet but the feet are different than most tetrapod feet. They are much like Acanthostega but has 7 digits on his hindlimb. His legs were only good for being in water. They could not support his weight. (Coates and Clack, 1990, p. 67) These are half evolved legs since they have more digits than the normal tetrapod but fewer bony rays than the fish and they are unable to support the weight.


More assumptions, aren't they, being spoken of as fact when there is no possible way they could know for a fact anything of their statements...how do they know that the legs could not have supported the animal's weight? Did the muscles fossilize...if they did, could they cut apart the outer layers of fossilized flesh and examine fossilized muscles? Think for yourself, Shernren, think....can you look at fossilized remains of a camel and be able to tell whether or not its leg muscles could support its body weight? I think not, and neither can they. Conjecture built upon conjecture built upon assumption, nothing here do I see written that could possibly be known for a FACT other than what is obviuos in straight forward interpretations.

And additional digits, do they really boast a big difference? No, they do not. I have seen people brought into the local county jail that when told to remove their shoes for inspection, had six toes on both feet...does that tell me that his ancesotr's could have possibly been from Goliath's line, who also had such additional digits? No, it does not, all it proves is a mutational affect upon his developmental pathways after conception, that is all it proves. Is that mutation able to be copied to his progeny? It has demonstrated to be not the case.

Thus, once again, this creature shows intermediate or transitional traits. Those who erroneously claim transitional forms don't exist, haven't looked at the data.


Once again, I would caution anyone who would read this kind of article to research back to the original articles that this one is derived from, if they can gain access to them. Usually, more is assumed from the first article than the first article assumes, and so on down the line. I would also say that if one had the time and resources, that they search out these fossils and examine them for themselves...we place way to much trust in the hands of people who, IF biased in their work, input their own interpretations into articles that the fossil does not give credence to.

I would also close in saying that anyone who does believe that there are strict transitional and intermediate fossils needs to research genetics...if one does not understand that basic genetics demonstrates the impossibility of such scribblings, one can look at any fossil and say that it has evolutionary underpinnigns. If genetics dictates that all such changes are impossible, then all fossils claimed to be transitory and intermediate are based upon false interpretations, period.


Caution, my brother, erroneous interpretations, like hanging around the wrong crowd, can corrupt and have a disasterous affect upon your salvation.

Blessings!
 
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