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Why do some Christians defend 2nd amend over lives?

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Starcrystal

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Not at all likely.

It is not easy to kill an alligator with a gun: a person would have to be in very close range, & would also have to be an excellent marksman, given there is only a very small area where the shot must hit to be effective. Couple this with the strength & quick speed of the alligator, & it's highly unlikely the average gun owner is going to be taking the animal down. (Let's also not forget that firing at the alligator would've greatly risked shooting the child, without likely killing the alligator at all.)

Wrong..first of all, the father was in close range, even 'wrestled the gator" from some reports

"The father actually went into the water to wrestle his son from the grips of the alligator," he said. The father suffered minor scratches on his hand, but was unsuccessful in getting his son back."

Secondly a few head shots to the gator would have stopped this quickly as long as they were back behind the eyes towards the neck and shot forward..people who live in Florida should know such things and people who visit and go around alligator areas should be taught..however a powerful enough gun fired in that area would stop the gator.

alligator_quarter-sized-kill-spot.jpg


Kill_Spot_side_490.jpg


Like this...my target practice with an old BB gun and after some time not shooting...

Devil_destroyed.JPG


World War 2 target games... just the 2 hits to engine compartment and one to cockpit probably would have done it, and a few more for good measure....

Zero_down.JPG
 
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Circle Christ

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Right, well, then people will just keep dyin' round here.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
It isn't access to guns that causes murder. Paris is testimony to that and on more than one occasion.
 
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Circle Christ

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Wrong..first of all, the father was in close range, even 'wrestled the gator" from some reports

"The father actually went into the water to wrestle his son from the grips of the alligator," he said. The father suffered minor scratches on his hand, but was unsuccessful in getting his son back."

Secondly a few head shots to the gator would have stopped this quickly as long as they were back behind the eyes towards the neck and shot forward..people who live in Florida should know such things and people who visit and go around alligator areas should be taught..however a powerful enough gun fired in that area would stop the gator.

View attachment 176553

View attachment 176554

Like this...my target practice with an old BB gun and after some time not shooting...

View attachment 176555
A few head shots? While the alligator has the child in his jaws?
Have you ever watched how an Alligator takes its prey? It doesn't chew like other apex carnivore. It rips parts off. But first it rolls and drowns its victim.
This alligator captured this poor child and then retreated into the water. Which is why the father was injured following after.

I believe it is a disservice to the loss of this child and the pain the family still suffers to speculate as to what could have been done.
 
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miamited

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Hi jeff,

You asked:
My motive is to find out "Is it worth it" ?

I certainly believe that it's worth it to the mother grieving over her dead child shot down in a drive by shooting. Somehow I can't imagine those friends and loved ones of the 50 who died in Orlando wouldn't have felt it worth it. I mean, really, is that your position? It just isn't worth all the hassle and aggravation to save a few thousand lives every year. OK.

You responded:
also, other things that 'kill' us, comparing with death by guns.... are you or have you researched that at all ? --- Is it suffering and death that's the main concern, or ONLY at it relates to guns?)

Sure, there are other ways that people kill one another. Cain used a rock. But the firearm is a special kind of killing device. It can kill from great distances. It can kill with pretty much little physical effort on the part of the killer. Because of the distance from which it can kill, there is little to no defense against it. One can't throw up their arms and block a bullet. One can't run or otherwise escape someone with a firearm. Knives and rocks - you gotta get your hands dirty. You have to be right with the person you're killing. People often successfully escape death from someone wielding only a knife or rock.

Bombs? Sure, there are bombs, but then you've moved to a completely different realm of murder. It has to be premeditated. Most people don't walk around with a bomb strapped to their vest for that moment when they'll be attacked. After all, any decent bomb used for personal protection is going to kill you, too.

Yes, I have looked into the rate of other forms of killing with firearms controls in place and no, they don't go up because there now aren't any firearms.

You also responded:
"trying to stop so much senseless blood shed in our nation"
is likewise my goal,
with a much greater much bigger outlook than guns......

Good!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Are Christians not to protect themselves and their families?
Good question, and a frequent one too I think....
May I re-phrase it and ask it another way ? (for here or elsewhere to go into)

Namely: Are 'Christians' supposed to obey God or not, and will God do what He says He will do ?
Part of this same direction is "are Christians supposed to obey God and suffer whatever may befall them as a direct result of obeying God, including dying and the death of family ? "
and one more, tied in,
"Are Christians "WILLING" to obey God" ?

With the understanding that just like God protected Israel and all of His chosen ones throughout history,
none-the-less millions have willingly and joyfully given up their lives for their testimony of JESUS.
God was always, with no doubt,
and is always, with no doubt,
ABLE to protect His children , exactly and fully as His Word says ....

why, not even one sparrow in all the earth falls to the ground, except God permits it....
God is aware of everything, even the number of hairs on everyone's head...
GOD IS ABLE....
so, who trusts HIM ?
 
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Starcrystal

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A few head shots? While the alligator has the child in his jaws?
Have you ever watched how an Alligator takes its prey? It doesn't chew like other apex carnivore. It rips parts off. But first it rolls and drowns its victim.
This alligator captured this poor child and then retreated into the water. Which is why the father was injured following after.

I believe it is a disservice to the loss of this child and the pain the family still suffers to speculate as to what could have been done.

I am not saying if the father had a gun he could have prevented it.. and yes I have watched plenty a nature documentary as well as lived in Florida.... a duck or crane is gone in a flash of boiling water.... birds peacefully in water and then blam.... saw that a few times...
His best bet would have been to jump on back of gator and try to flip it over causing it to release the child, but we were not there so who knows... they say it was only a 4 - 6 foot gator, but that is still pretty powerful...
Shooting it 'may' have caused it to release the child...
maybe it should be more about Disney control, and how large alligators are allowed to be ion their ponds..my Mom lived in Florida 20 years and any time an alligator was in the lake in front of her house it got reported and fish & game came and took it out if it was anything over 2 foot long
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Shalom in Jesus Ted,
I almost feel like I'm rushing this, so perhaps will take a break soon... no worries though...
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't notice if you posted how many lives have been spared with gun control.
If that information is available, if not, no worries....
Following up on:
"You also responded:
yeshuaslavejeff said:
"trying to stop so much senseless blood shed in our nation"
is likewise my goal,
with a much greater much bigger outlook than guns......
Good! God bless you. In Christ, Ted"

Here's what I wanted to consider, how many people die voluntarily of disease ?

I don't know any other way to ask this question, strange as it sounds....

Are there any public records of how many people die of any disease, voluntarily or not, ?

When some of these things are on the television/news/ broadcasts,

it seems that a lot happens , leading to death, that doesn't ever HAVE to happen,

and a lot more people are involved (dying) than by guns....

To be continued, God willing :)
Shalom (health, peace and joy in Jesus),
jeff

......
 
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Circle Christ

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Good question, and a frequent one too I think....
May I re-phrase it and ask it another way ? (for here or elsewhere to go into)

Namely: Are 'Christians' supposed to obey God or not, and will God do what He says He will do ?
Part of this same direction is "are Christians supposed to obey God and suffer whatever may befall them as a direct result of obeying God, including dying and the death of family ? "
and one more, tied in,
"Are Christians "WILLING" to obey God" ?

With the understanding that just like God protected Israel and all of His chosen ones throughout history,
none-the-less millions have willingly and joyfully given up their lives for their testimony of JESUS.
God was always, with no doubt,
and is always, with no doubt,
ABLE to protect His children , exactly and fully as His Word says ....

why, not even one sparrow in all the earth falls to the ground, except God permits it....
God is aware of everything, even the number of hairs on everyone's head...
GOD IS ABLE....
so, who trusts HIM ?
I think you're conflating two topics here.
Are you saying the Christian does not trust God if they commit to self defense?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I think you're conflating two topics here.
Are you saying the Christian does not trust God if they commit to self defense?
As Jesus said directly,
that is something between them and their master.
Who are we to interfere ? Jesus said.
 
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miamited

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It isn't access to guns that causes murder. Paris is testimony to that and on more than one occasion.

Hi CC,

I'm not sure what your point is in that statement. The homicidal death rate by firearm in France is about .21/100,000. The homicidal death rate by firearm in U.S. 3.43/100,000. Those are rates per 100,000 and so they automatically adjust for population variance.

I often get the feeling that people think I'm trying to end death by firearms totally and because they can then show that someone else in the world has died in such manner, that it just doesn't work. That's not my goal. People still die in Japan by firearm, but it's 20 people out of 126 million. People still die in Great Britain by firearm, but it's generally less than 50 people per year among a population of some 64 million. People die from homicidal firearm deaths in Canada, but in 2013 it was 131 people among a population of 35 million people. People die in Australia by homicidal firearm, but it's generally less than 40 people/year with a population of 28 million.

Now, these numbers are based on total homicide firearm deaths, and therefore do need to be adjusted for population variance. So, let's do the math. The U.S. has some 321 million people. Adjusting for Japan the population difference is about 2.5 (321/126). Multiplying their total firearms homicides by 2.5 would infer that if Japan had the same population as the U.S. and maintained the same kind of control over firearms, the total number of such deaths would be about 50. Similarly, for Great Britain (321/64) would give us 5 times greater population and so the same death count would be about 250 people/year. For Canada (321/35) the difference is 9. So we would project a total homicide firearms deaths of about 1200. Finally, for Australia (321/28) = 11.4 x 40 = 456.

So, here are five nations with fairly strict firearms possession and ownership laws and there doesn't seem to be any question that they enjoy a generally much safer lifestyle when it comes to the possibility of dying at the hands of a person holding a firearm.

So, honestly there really doesn't seem to be much question that strict firearms controls work for reducing homicidal deaths by firearm. Now, whether or not we're a smart enough and caring enough people to be willing to say that the 2nd amendment was a good amendment for its day, but not so much today, and repeal it, will tell the world if we really do love one another. Do we care enough about others that we would be willing to give up this supposed freedom or man given right to bear arms so that fewer people die? Or, are we more prideful and arrogant and would rather say, "I don't give a d*** about anybody else. You won't take my gun away until you pry it from my dead fingers. It's my constitutional right!" And people keep dying by the 10's of thousands each and every year. It's our choice. What kind of people are the American people? News accounts and articles are written about the American people every year that paint us as some murderous bunch of people as a whole nation.

What kind of person are you? Are you more like Jesus? Giving your life that others might live? Sacrificing your supposed freedom and right for the betterment of all? Is it really all that important for you to be able to hold a piece of cold steel in your hands that has the potential to kill without prejudice anyone that you point it at? Or would you give that up so that more might live their lives out? What's important to you?

Here's an article that makes the point. I have no idea who the writer is, as far as his agenda, but the numbers he quotes are correct when compared to the numbers generally reported on other sites: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/04/1427656/-NRA-Calls-Americans-Most-Murderous-People-on-Earth

Of course, his final conclusion is one that must be inferred from his previous information, but he has a point. According to all the same numbers from all the other nations of the world, we are a murderous bunch of folk. There are a lot of things for the U.S. to be very proud of, however, I don't agree that our being seen as a bunch of murderous people should be one of them.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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? why such emphasis
when there's 15 causes of death more than twice as high(among "AVERAGE/normal/common" americans) rate per 100,000.
as shown by
official us statistics at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf
(chart about page 4, no download needed; I tried to copy it, but it didn't paste right)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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In what passage did Jesus say that?
Several places, throughout NT,
in harmony throughout (i.e. it's part and parcel with the GOOD NEWS),
here's one:
Romans 14:4Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? It is before his own master that he will stand or fall; and the fact is that he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand.


Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
 
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Circle Christ

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Hi CC,

I'm not sure what your point is in that statement. The homicidal death rate by firearm in France is about .21/100,000. The homicidal death rate by firearm in U.S. 3.43/100,000. Those are rates per 100,000 and so they automatically adjust for population variance.

I often get the feeling that people think I'm trying to end death by firearms totally and because they can then show that someone else in the world has died in such manner, that it just doesn't work. That's not my goal. People still die in Japan by firearm, but it's 20 people out of 126 million. People still die in Great Britain by firearm, but it's generally less than 50 people per year among a population of some 64 million. People die from homicidal firearm deaths in Canada, but in 2013 it was 131 people among a population of 35 million people. People die in Australia by homicidal firearm, but it's generally less than 40 people/year with a population of 28 million.

Now, these numbers are based on total homicide firearm deaths, and therefore do need to be adjusted for population variance. So, let's do the math. The U.S. has some 321 million people. Adjusting for Japan the population difference is about 2.5 (321/126). Multiplying their total firearms homicides by 2.5 would infer that if Japan had the same population as the U.S. and maintained the same kind of control over firearms, the total number of such deaths would be about 50. Similarly, for Great Britain (321/64) would give us 5 times greater population and so the same death count would be about 250 people/year. For Canada (321/35) the difference is 9. So we would project a total homicide firearms deaths of about 1200. Finally, for Australia (321/28) = 11.4 x 40 = 456.

So, here are five nations with fairly strict firearms possession and ownership laws and there doesn't seem to be any question that they enjoy a generally much safer lifestyle when it comes to the possibility of dying at the hands of a person holding a firearm.

So, honestly there really doesn't seem to be much question that strict firearms controls work for reducing homicidal deaths by firearm. Now, whether or not we're a smart enough and caring enough people to be willing to say that the 2nd amendment was a good amendment for its day, but not so much today, and repeal it, will tell the world if we really do love one another. Do we care enough about others that we would be willing to give up this supposed freedom or man given right to bear arms so that fewer people die? Or, are we more prideful and arrogant and would rather say, "I don't give a d*** about anybody else. You won't take my gun away until you pry it from my dead fingers. It's my constitutional right!" And people keep dying by the 10's of thousands each and every year. It's our choice. What kind of people are the American people? News accounts and articles are written about the American people every year that paint us as some murderous bunch of people as a whole nation.

What kind of person are you? Are you more like Jesus? Giving your life that others might live? Sacrificing your supposed freedom and right for the betterment of all? Is it really all that important for you to be able to hold a piece of cold steel in your hands that has the potential to kill without prejudice anyone that you point it at? Or would you give that up so that more might live their lives out? What's important to you?

Here's an article that makes the point. I have no idea who the writer is, as far as his agenda, but the numbers he quotes are correct when compared to the numbers generally reported on other sites: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/04/1427656/-NRA-Calls-Americans-Most-Murderous-People-on-Earth

Of course, his final conclusion is one that must be inferred from his previous information, but he has a point. According to all the same numbers from all the other nations of the world, we are a murderous bunch of folk. There are a lot of things for the U.S. to be very proud of, however, I don't agree that our being seen as a bunch of murderous people should be one of them.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted
The point of my statement being, gun control was very strict in France and yet that had nothing to do with stopping firearm massacres in France.
France interactive map of attacks

If gun control laws worked to stop violence we would never read of a single incident of mass murder using firearms in any country where strict gun control laws are in place.
 
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Circle Christ

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Several places, throughout NT,
in harmony throughout (i.e. it's part and parcel with the GOOD NEWS),
here's one:
Romans 14:4Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? It is before his own master that he will stand or fall; and the fact is that he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand.


Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
Then this observation you introduce would preclude your debating the issue of gun control wouldn't it?
 
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Circle Christ

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In what way?
What do you mean by it would preclude debating ? Rule it out? Make it null and void ?
Rule it out. I would think if you accept that Romans 14 in total applies to this discussion then you would permit someone to have their opinion without rebutting with your own.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Rule it out. I would think if you accept that Romans 14 in total applies to this discussion then you would permit someone to have their opinion without rebuttning with your own.
I don't believe Romans 14 or any other Scripture is accepted fully as the Authority of God for His Kingdom by the average reader on the internet(or most posters either). I haven't seen the testimony of most posters to know or even pretend to know who does and who doesn't accept the Authority of the Word of God in their lives.
So ?
What does that (or anything) have to do with
permitting anyone / everyone to have their opinion and or 'rebutting' any opinion with my own or with God's Word accurately? Isn't that exactly what everyone on this forum says they are doing or hoping to do (except of course the acknowledged pagans) ?
 
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