Why do some Christians defend 2nd amend over lives?

[miamited]

Well as an outsider I do not understand this as well. Also the Orlando killer was able to legally able to purchase the semi automatic rifle too In my country that is illegal. I live in Australia and there has not been any mass killings by guns since there was stricter gun laws introduced in 1997 not long after the Port Arthur mass shootings.

Hi dude,

I was sharing this idea on another thread, that stricter laws for firearms reduce all firearms deaths not just these mass killings, but the general consensus among those with whom I was sharing was that such an idea isn't really true. I pointed out the firearms homicide rate in Japan which likely has some of the most strict firearms laws on the planet among industrialized nations. I also pointed out that both the UK and Canada have much tougher laws than we do and also experience much less firearms deaths per capita than we do. I was soundly rebuked that I was pushing lies.

We are a nation of people, and please don't misunderstand me as to my loyalty and love for my country, but truth is truth, we are a nation that made the mistake of allowing this issue of firearms to be addressed in our constitution and we're going to pay for it dearly. I would not be at all surprised that if we could resurrect the writers of our constitution to see what has become of us because of that one little comment in the constitution that they would tell us to remove it themselves.

These men who wrote the constitution only knew muzzle loaded muskets and drop in ball pistols. They likely never envisioned or considered that this would be a multi-billion dollar industry that would produce the kinds of weapons that we have today.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Winken]

Recently, where I live (USA) 2 persons posing as police officers knocked down the front door of several dwellings. They were heavily armed. Folks inside were confused about what to do. Recently, 3 thieves knocked down the front door of multiple dwellings. They were heavily armed. Folks inside were overwhelmed by the weaponry of the bad guys. Self-defense didn't have a prayer. In both cases the bad guys were in and out in under 2 minutes. The police arrived in 3 minutes.

What to do? Everyone needs an ID card to plug in the front and back doors? Bars on the windows? Security officers 24/7?

IDK......

 

[Albion]

After all is said and done, the much maligned slogan, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is correct. Disarming the populace cannot roll back the clock to a time when only muzzle-loaders were used on either side of any battle.

 

[miamited]

After all is said and done, the much maligned slogan, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is correct. Disarming the populace cannot roll back the clock to a time when only muzzle-loaders were used on either side of any battle.

Hi albion,

You know that I respect you and your comments, but...

That just isn't true. There are a dozen nations with living breathing human beings just like you and I and the 300 million others that call the U.S. home where firearms are strictly controlled and such controls reflect in their firearms death tolls. Japan, which has some of the most strict controls has less than 30 firearms related homicides in any given year. Many years they have less than 15 and that's today with today's firearms and today's people. Canada also has much more strict firearms controls and they don't enjoy the low numbers that Japan does, but they have a much, much better rate than we do. Great Britain is another and, as our fellow poster has reported, so do the Aussies. It just isn't true that if firearms are strictly restricted that only criminals will have firearms, except for the fact that anyone who then has a firearm would likely be breaking the law.

Firearms are deadly weapons that require absolutely no training or understanding to operate and such a device should not be put in the hands of just everyone who wants one. Good people get angry. Good people lose their cool. Good people get upset because they think that someone has slighted them. In many cases, these generally good people just lose their grasp on reality for a moment or are so angered that they are filled with murderous ideas and because they have access to a firearm - someone winds up dead. Of course, there are also bad people who will use firearms as a means of control and fear and often times someone winds up dead in this scenario also.

But the fact that strict firearms controls don't work just isn't proven out by the real world actual evidence that we have available to us. Here's a site you can peruse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

You can go right down the list, and I'm limiting my research to industrialized nations although the same general phenomenon is evident throughout the list, and you'll find that almost to the letter, countries with strong firearms restrictions have a much, much lower death rate than countries without. Personally, I honestly can't see how anyone can look at this list and do the research and not see the correlation.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Albion]

Thanks, Ted.

Hi albion,

You know that I respect you and your comments, but...

That just isn't true. There are a dozen nations with living breathing human beings just like you and I and the 300 million others that call the U.S. home where firearms are strictly controlled and such controls reflect in their firearms death tolls.

Well, let me say first that I believe in the rule of law and that means the Constitution, so some of this is pure banter. We could pass a Constitutional amendment replacing the existing second amendment. If so, that's the will of the American people. But I can't support circumventing the Constitution, which is all that the current debate is about.

But as for gun deaths going down in Australia or elsewhere, we have the evidence that it doesn't happen here, perhaps because of our history which isn't the same as the history of some other nations, and certainly not with anything short of total gun confiscation. And I see no way that that would be right to do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE"Winken, post: 69765754, member: 269600"]Recently, where I live (USA) 2 persons posing as police officers knocked down the front door of several dwellings. They were heavily armed. Folks inside were confused about what to do. Recently, 3 thieves knocked down the front door of multiple dwellings. They were heavily armed. Folks inside were overwhelmed by the weaponry of the bad guys. Self-defense didn't have a prayer. In both cases the bad guys were in and out in under 2 minutes. The police arrived in 3 minutes.

What to do? Everyone needs an ID card to plug in the front and back doors? Bars on the windows? Security officers 24/7?

IDK.....)end( QUOTE
IDK?? there end of quote means I don't know ?
IDK>> here, means I do know. No question. No doubt.

 

[Circle Christ]

Why do some followers of the Prince of Peace think it is more important to protect the right of someone to buy an assault rifle than it is to protect the rights of people to not be shot by a stranger?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10440698.html?yptr=yahoo

I once again find myself asking this sort of question. I support some gun ownership - for hunting, for sport. But some guns just should not be available to civilians. It is mind boggling to me that so many - including some Christians - can not admit this to be true.

The problem is not with any one ideology or religion or even mental illness; the problem is with us. Until we, as fellow Americans, can stand up & petition for something to change - to "fight the good fight" - we will continue on this path where mass shootings are the norm. How can we be shocked when these things happen, at an elementary school or a church or a club? Until things change, these mass shootings will continue. Any one of us could be the victim.

My personal plea? Pray, of course, but not just pray. Act.

Write your senator, your representative. Donate, campaign. Whatever you think you should do. Let's be peacemakers.

Are Christians not to protect themselves and their families?

 

[miamited]

Hi albion,

Yes, our constitution is a document which was created at the inception of our nationhood and is a document that we certainly should respect, however...

It is a document conceived and created by men. It is a document that was conceived and created by men when the world was a much different place. We have made changes to our constitution a number of times. We have added amendments. I believe that it is now time to take this one away.

Yes, yes. I get it. I'm a blasphemer! But really, is that the legacy we want to leave the world? We are the only nation on the earth that addresses firearms as a part of our constitutional 'rights' and by golly we can prove it! What I will say is. that until and unless we renounce and rescind the 2nd amendment to our constitution, this problem will not go away. We cannot know the mind or heart of a man. We cannot weed out those who would kill someone with a firearm by background checks or psychological evaluation. We've tried that and tried earnestly for the last 50 years or so and the problem only gets worse and worse.

But, it's a wonderful nation and a great place to live. But I think it foolishness for us to think that we can always and forever live with the fetters of a government designed 300 years ago that cannot or will not change. Sure, there are good things about our government that we should keep and hopefully will, but there are bad things that we need to weed out and improve and this is true of everything except the Scriptures. The Scriptures were conceived and authored by God. He doesn't make the mistakes and follies of men.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Are Christians not to protect themselves and their families?

Hi CC,

I've heard that. Most defend it with the Lord's instructions to his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a knife or sword. Oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a single shred of evidence that that's why the disciples thought Jesus gave them this instruction. In all of the accounts of persecution not a one of them ever gave evidence that they attempted to defend themselves or their families with the knife or sword that Jesus told them to buy.

Further, do you believe that all of the millions of people living around the globe don't protect their families? The question that you ask begs to assume that the answer is, "So, I need a firearm to protect myself and family." Friend, there are millions of people around the globe who would ask that same question, but the answer would never be, "So, I need a firearm to protect myself and family." Surprisingly enough, those millions of people around the globe who don't have ready access to firearms have much safer families according to the statistics.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Albion]

Hi albion,

Yes, our constitution is a document which was created at the inception of our nationhood and is a document that we certainly should respect, however...

It is a document conceived and created by men. It is a document that was conceived and created by men when the world was a much different place. We have made changes to our constitution a number of times. We have added amendments. I believe that it is now time to take this one away.

As I said, if the Constitution were to be amended so as to change the second amendment, I'd accept it. But, if you notice, NO ONE is talking about taking that approach to the problem.

Yes, yes. I get it. I'm a blasphemer!

Huh? What does this mean? Who are you speaking to here??

 

[miamited]

Hi albion,

You responded:

But as for gun deaths going down in Australia or elsewhere, we have the evidence that it doesn't happen here, perhaps because of our history which isn't the same as the history of some other nations, and certainly not with anything short of total gun confiscation. And I see no way that that would be right to do.

That's not necessarily the truth either. Have you been watching what's going on in New York City? They recently instituted some pretty tough firearms limitations. For one, it is absolutely illegal to own or possess any automatic firearm. Secondly, New York City does not recognize any other state or municipalities firearms permit or license. You can't go to New York City with a weapon and a state of Virginia permit and expect to be them to be ok with that. They have laid down some, comparatively to any U.S. laws, pretty tough restrictions on firearms. Read this: http://nypost.com/2013/04/29/city-gun-deaths-plummet/

Of course, New York City is still not a particularly safe place, but the idea that tough firearms restrictions don't work here, just isn't really true. They do work here! Not as well as in other countries because it's only done on a municipality basis. So, firearms can still come in from surrounding neighborhoods and, of course, all the people who already had firearms still do, although they are now required to get licenses and permits for them. But, just this small step in severely restricting firearms possession with the city itself has made a fairly sizable dent in the firearms death rate.

One of the problems with the 'it doesn't work here' set is that it's never been tried here on any large scale basis. A small town or city here or there tries to make changes, but you can't really get rid of firearms if all you have to do is drive 10 miles down the road and buy one.

But, once again, tough firearms laws that restrict private ownership do work and it has been seen both on the international level and on the level of our own nation.

But, teaching against the 'right to bear arms' is a tough sell. We're a proud bunch of folk and we know that the very reason we exist is because a band of men who had firearms got together and started the revolutionary war. We have honestly sold ourselves a bill of goods that tells us that we're safer with firearms than without them. However, the evidence suggests otherwise all across the globe.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Circle Christ]

Hi CC,

I've heard that. Most defend it with the Lord's instructions to his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a knife or sword. Oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a single shred of evidence that that's why the disciples thought Jesus gave them this instruction. In all of the accounts of persecution not a one of them ever gave evidence that they attempted to defend themselves or their families with the knife or sword that Jesus told them to buy.

Further, do you believe that all of the millions of people living around the globe don't protect their families? The question that you ask begs to assume that the answer is, "So, I need a firearm to protect myself and family." Friend, there are millions of people around the globe who would ask that same question, but the answer would never be, "So, I need a firearm to protect myself and family." Surprisingly enough, those millions of people around the globe who don't have ready access to firearms have much safer families according to the statistics.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I believe the individual is what is being discussed here. Their personal choice. The millions around the world do not speak here.
In that concern, I believe the individual is the one for whom the choice is to be made with regard to firearms. No one person's opinion against firearms may repeal the opinion of the one who believes they are entitled to own firearms.

It is relative to a person's own sense of security. As well as that level of personal security necessary for their region of the world.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ted, if I may interrupt for a tangent... (maybe move this to pm or other thread shortly, if God Desires),

IF gun control works, let's say it does, with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,
THEN how many deaths and injuries would that prevent in the area you live in ?

 

[miamited]

Hi albion,

You asked:

Huh? What does this mean? Who are you speaking to here??

I was denigrating myself in saying that this is what people say of me for even suggesting such a thing. You say that no one yet is approaching the 'let's change the second amendment' reason for why we can't crack down on firearms ownership and possession? Well, maybe it's time.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

I believe the individual is what is being discussed here. Their personal choice. The millions around the world do not speak here.
In that concern, I believe the individual is the one for whom the choice is to be made with regard to firearms. No one person's opinion against firearms may repeal the opinion of the one who believes they are entitled to own firearms.

It is relative to a person's own sense of security. As well as that level of personal security necessary for their region of the world.

Right, well, then people will just keep dyin' round here.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Right, well, then people will just keep dyin' round here.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Is gun control the most or best cost effective (or other effective/ not to equate money with souls)
way to save lives ?

Would you like a way a thousand times more effective (and ten thousand times less expensive) if it exists ? (if it ever is possible;;;; the ones in charge may never, ever admit it, let alone permit it >>)
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

 

[miamited]

Ted, if I may interrupt for a tangent... (maybe move this to pm or other thread shortly, if God Desires),

IF gun control works, let's say it does, with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,
THEN how many deaths and injuries would that prevent in the area you live in ?

Hi jeff,

You don't really expect me to have an answer for that question do you? I also don't have a clue what you mean when you say,

IF gun control works, let's say it does, with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,

what in the world does that mean 'with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,

Firearms controls that severly restrict ownership and possession does work. There really isn't any question concerning that. Did you bother to read and research the site I posted? Take Japan, we can start there. How tough are their firearms laws? How many people died from homicide firearms deaths? Of course, one of the favorite smoke screens that people throw in with this is that people find other ways of killing. However, all of that can be researched. How many stabbings were there in Japan for the year in question? How many homicidal drownings or vehicular manslaughter cases were there?

However, here in the good ole' US of A, we don't want to give up our firearms. It represents some sort of freedom to us to be able to at least have nearby at our disposal a weapon with which we can dispatch people to hell in a mere moment. I don't get it. But, if you want to do the research on this issue, it's out there.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Is gun control the most or best cost effective (or other effective/ not to equate money with souls)
way to save lives ?

Would you like a way a thousand times more effective (and ten thousand times less expensive) if it exists ? (if it ever is possible;;;; the ones in charge may never, ever admit it, let alone permit it >>)
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

Friend, I have no idea where you're going with this, but all I'm interested in is trying to stop so much senseless blood shed in our nation. There isn't anyone that I'm aware of that I can't criticize. I can even criticize God, but I'd be a fool to.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, although I didn't know you did or were interested in research.
I don't argue with nor deny research that gun control sometimes works. Sometimes better than others as well.
My motive is to find out "Is it worth it" ?

How many lives were already saved anywhere it worked, or how many lives would it save in your area ?
(potentially, average or best estimate) ?

I guess a backround question was or is, how much did it cost ? Not just in money, but in freedom , in choices, and so forth. (This is new to me, as I never thought gun control was worth it before - it looked like it was not feasible to me; also, other things that 'kill' us, comparing with death by guns.... are you or have you researched that at all ? --- Is it suffering and death that's the main concern, or ONLY at it relates to guns?)


QUOTE "miamited, Hi jeff,
You don't really expect me to have an answer for that question do you? I also don't have a clue what you mean when you say,
IF gun control works, let's say it does, with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,
what in the world does that mean 'with no ulterior motive except cost-effectiveness/comparisons...,
Firearms controls that severly restrict ownership and possession does work. There really isn't any question concerning that. Did you bother to read and research the site I posted? Take Japan, we can start there. How tough are their firearms laws? How many people died from homicide firearms deaths? Of course, one of the favorite smoke screens that people throw in with this is that people find other ways of killing. However, all of that can be researched. How many stabbings were there in Japan for the year in question? How many homicidal drownings or vehicular manslaughter cases were there?
However, here in the good ole' US of A, we don't want to give up our firearms. It represents some sort of freedom to us to be able to at least have nearby at our disposal a weapon with which we can dispatch people to hell in a mere moment. I don't get it. But, if you want to do the research on this issue, it's out there. God bless you. In Christ, Ted QUOTE

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Friend, I have no idea where you're going with this, but all I'm interested in is trying to stop so much senseless blood shed in our nation. There isn't anyone that I'm aware of that I can't criticize. I can even criticize God, but I'd be a fool to.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

This partly answers my question that I just now posted - thank you.
"trying to stop so much senseless blood shed in our nation"
is likewise my goal,
with a much greater much bigger outlook than guns......