• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why do so few creationist know the definition of "evolution"

Status
Not open for further replies.

Matthewj1985

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2008
1,146
58
Texas
✟1,669.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I run into a lot of creationist (mostly young earth) who has a real warped view on what "evolution" is. Most of the YEC's I encounter hold a very "Hovindistic" definition of the word "evolution". To them "evolution" means "everything explained without God", that includes everything from elements being formed in stars to abiogenesis to cosmology. In reality the theory of evolution is simply a mechanism used to describe the complexity of life on earth. It has nothing to do with where life came from (abiogenesis) or the creation of the universe (cosmology).

Why do so many creationist get this definition wrong?
 

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I run into a lot of creationist (mostly young earth) who has a real warped view on what "evolution" is. Most of the YEC's I encounter hold a very "Hovindistic" definition of the word "evolution". To them "evolution" means "everything explained without God", that includes everything from elements being formed in stars to abiogenesis to cosmology. In reality the theory of evolution is simply a mechanism used to describe the complexity of life on earth. It has nothing to do with where life came from (abiogenesis) or the creation of the universe (cosmology).

Why do so many creationist get this definition wrong?

Why do so many evolutionists, mostly Darwinian, not use the scientific definition for evolution. The definition is from genetics and it's, 'the change of alleles in populations over time', not universal common descent. What evolutionists try to do is to equvicate the two meanings without ever clearly defining it. Evolution as you are using it is simply a clutch phrase, not a scientific definition.
 
Upvote 0

RobertByers

Regular Member
Feb 26, 2008
714
9
60
✟23,409.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It would be a great gain for creationism if all mankind actually knew what evolution is trying to sell.
It is trying to say all the great changes of life from bugs to brains are not from Gods control or innate control but simple desperate survival of types of the same type.
its absurd and dumb. its unwitnessed and unevidenced and unlikely.
Its coming to a end as more and smarter people look at these ideas from close ispection in small circles in Acaedemia. (sp)
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Why do so many evolutionists, mostly Darwinian, not use the scientific definition for evolution. The definition is from genetics and it's, 'the change of alleles in populations over time', not universal common descent.


As long as you are trying to be exact, let's make that "the change in the proportional distribution of alleles in a population over generations".

Alleles, of course, can change through mutation, but that doesn't in itself, lead to evolution. You have to get the new allele established in the population first, and then see how it fares against other alleles of the same gene. Does it come to a Mendelian balance (no evolution) or does the proportional distribution change (evolution)?
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
[Evolution]is trying to say all the great changes of life from bugs to brains are not from Gods control or innate control but simple desperate survival of types of the same type.

That is a good example of the incorrect notion that many creationists have about evolution. Nothing in the theory of evolution says the great changes in species over time are not within God's control. Like any scientific theory, evolution is simply silent on what role God plays--because scientists have no way to discover that using scientific methods.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,200
52,655
Guam
✟5,152,081.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I run into a lot of creationist (mostly young earth) who has a real warped view on what "evolution" is.
Believe me --- I know all about evolution --- from alleles to zygotes and everything in-between; and when I see a kangaroo lay an egg that hatches into a human being after starting out as a porcupine --- then I'll give evolution some validity.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟554,225.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
As long as you are trying to be exact, let's make that "the change in the proportional distribution of alleles in a population over generations".

Alleles, of course, can change through mutation, but that doesn't in itself, lead to evolution. You have to get the new allele established in the population first, and then see how it fares against other alleles of the same gene. Does it come to a Mendelian balance (no evolution) or does the proportional distribution change (evolution)?

I am quite aware that in late years evolutioniste have re-defined their pet theory in this way, because if all you are talking about is the porportional distribution of alleles, evolution can be clearly demonstrated.

But if you include the rise of alleles that did not previously exist and their spread through a population to the extent that new genera exist, this has never been demonstrated to have ever happened. It exists only in theory.

In my university years as a senior level Biology student, I saw again and again the fact that the only REAL reason that evolution was almost universally accepted was because the only reasonable alternative was a creation of some kind. And that was rejected because a creation requires a creator, and that was a totally unacceptable concept.

The reason, and the only real reason, this concept is so unacceptable is because if there is a creator, then there is someone or something that basically owns us and has a right to tell us what to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vossler
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Believe me --- I know all about evolution --- from alleles to zygotes and everything in-between; and when I see a kangaroo lay an egg that hatches into a human being after starting out as a porcupine --- then I'll give evolution some validity.

IOW what you "know" about evolution is all wrong.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,200
52,655
Guam
✟5,152,081.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
IOW what you "know" about evolution is all wrong.
Like I say: If someone wants to pwn evolution, all they need is the first chapter of the Bible; and if they want to pwn atheism, all they need is the first verse of the Bible.

  • Genesis 1 pwns evolution.
  • Genesis 1:1 pwns atheism.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I am quite aware that in late years evolutioniste have re-defined their pet theory in this way, because if all you are talking about is the porportional distribution of alleles, evolution can be clearly demonstrated.

This is the definition that has been in use for the last half-century. Perhaps you consider that "late".

But if you include the rise of alleles that did not previously exist

New alleles arise through mutation. But, as I said to mark, the presence of new alleles does not necessarily result in evolution. On their own, new alleles merely add to the variability of the population.


and their spread through a population to the extent that new genera exist,

New genera come into being as new species come into being. No new genus comes into being apart from the species of which it is composed. In a way, one can say that macro-evolution and speciation are identical, for the only new natural unit ever produced is a species. Everything above species is a taxonomic label generated for human convenience.

What can happen as speciation within a genus continues, is that the group once known as a genus will be re-classified as a family, so that some sub-groups within it will now be given the label "genus" in respect of species within the former genus (now family) that are more closely related to each other than to other species in the larger group.

Note that our new allele might actually not be spread through the whole family (formerly genus), and that the new genus is merely a classificatory convenience. The only natural new units ever generated in evolution are species and sub-species.


this has never been demonstrated to have ever happened. It exists only in theory.

Speciation (defined in populations that reproduce sexually as "reproductive isolation") has been demonstrated. Speciation in other groups is defined less objectively, but within the limits of such definition has also been demonstrated.

In my university years as a senior level Biology student, I saw again and again the fact that the only REAL reason that evolution was almost universally accepted was because the only reasonable alternative was a creation of some kind.

That is a shame, but I think Christians tend to bring it on themselves when they refuse to define creation in a way that is consistent with the evidence in creation. We need to be more articulate about the what we mean by "creation" both in churches and in academia. There is no reason evolution should be seen as making a creator unacceptable concept.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Like I say: If someone wants to pwn evolution, all they need is the first chapter of the Bible; and if they want to pwn atheism, all they need is the first verse of the Bible.

  • Genesis 1 pwns evolution.
  • Genesis 1:1 pwns atheism.

I believe Genesis 1. I accept the evolutionary explanation of biological diversity. I find no need to choose between these.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,200
52,655
Guam
✟5,152,081.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe Genesis 1. I accept the evolutionary explanation of biological diversity. I find no need to choose between these.
Do you believe that prior to Genesis 1 the level of mass/energy in existence was zero?
 
Upvote 0

70x7

Junior Member
Dec 5, 2008
374
36
Albuq, NM USA
✟23,204.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no reason evolution should be seen as making a creator unacceptable concept.

But yet, by a large number of anti-creattionists here on the forum cannot speak the words God and evolution in the same sentance without a derrogatory meaning.

I personally see science for an insight on how God created things. There is structure, balance, and purpose.
The likewise teaches of a world that is God-less and everything is essentially an accident as there was no design or intent, but it all fell as it may.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Do you believe that prior to Genesis 1 the level of mass/energy in existence was zero?

Evolution is a theory in the field of biology. It doesn't discuss mass/energy. That is a concept from physics. I am not particularly conversant in physics so I don't have an answer to that question.

I do know that it is not relevant to evolution.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
But yet, by a large number of anti-creattionists here on the forum cannot speak the words God and evolution in the same sentance without a derrogatory meaning.

Not sure I follow this thought.

I personally see science for an insight on how God created things. There is structure, balance, and purpose.

Yes, I agree.


The likewise teaches of a world that is God-less and everything is essentially an accident as there was no design or intent, but it all fell as it may.

Science is limited to the study of material (i.e. secondary) causes. Why would you expect to find design or intent in material causes? Is it not the mind that intends?

Instead of looking for design in the tool, should you not look for design in the mind of its user?

IOW what science can only describe as chance may appear very differently to God whose providence gathers all chances into his eternal purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Sophophile

Newbie
Jul 21, 2008
256
18
✟15,482.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Believe me --- I know all about evolution --- from alleles to zygotes and everything in-between; and when I see a kangaroo lay an egg that hatches into a human being after starting out as a porcupine --- then I'll give evolution some validity.

Hello AV1611VET.

I'm not sure if you're joking ... a kangaroo laying an egg that produces a human/porcupine would completely disprove common descent.

Common descent is dependant upon a nested hierarchy of features. According to the nested hierarchy, kangaroos, humans and porcupines share a more recent common ancestor (a mammal) than they do with any egg-layer (birds or even monotremes). Therefore, an egg-laying kangaroo would violate the nested hierarchy, falsifying common descent.

There is another reason: evolution calls for small incremental changes in populations over long periods. A kangaroo siring a human/porcupine is a huge, massive leap that would also falsify common descent.

So, unless you were joking, an egg-laying, human/porcupine producing kangaroo is exactly what you should want to see, if you want evolution to be proved false.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards
S.
 
Upvote 0

Sophophile

Newbie
Jul 21, 2008
256
18
✟15,482.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I am quite aware that in late years evolutioniste have re-defined their pet theory in this way, because if all you are talking about is the porportional distribution of alleles, evolution can be clearly demonstrated.

But if you include the rise of alleles that did not previously exist and their spread through a population to the extent that new genera exist, this has never been demonstrated to have ever happened. It exists only in theory.

Actually, the rise of alleles that did not previously exist has been demonstrated. However, I agree with your general point that the evolutionists should be more up-front with what the theory proposes, which is common ancestry of life via mutation, natural selection and other evolutionary processes.

In my university years as a senior level Biology student, I saw again and again the fact that the only REAL reason that evolution was almost universally accepted was because the only reasonable alternative was a creation of some kind. And that was rejected because a creation requires a creator, and that was a totally unacceptable concept.

The reason, and the only real reason, this concept is so unacceptable is because if there is a creator, then there is someone or something that basically owns us and has a right to tell us what to do.

This cannot be correct, because there are many Christians and other theists who accept the truth of evolutionary theory.

Cheers
S.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,200
52,655
Guam
✟5,152,081.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.