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Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

A

AForestOfStars

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Psalms 91, that's an awesome testimony!

It reminds me of my good friend Marina, another Christian. She was about to embark on a 6-month long missionary training and outreach/evangelizing trip with Youth With A Mission (YWAM). However, for her traveling and cost of room and board as well as for the training courseload, she had to pay a few thousand dollars. She didn't have that kind of money. Well, God provided that money for her right on time! She didn't even have to resort to fundraising and asking for donations yet! God had provided the funds. An anonymous person even gave her $1000, and it turns out that this person was a stranger who didn't know my friend Marina. This person heard the Lord telling her to donate that money to Marina. God really does provide.

God says if we delight in Him He will give us our hearts' desires. When we follow and obey God, delighting in Him, He lines up our desires with His desires, and fulfills them! Praise Him.
 
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dkbwarrior

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I am not going to post 2 Cor 8 and 9 here so everyone can see that the context is money, you should be able to read it for yourself.

I agree with Oscarr that being righteous is true wealth, but it is not his salvation that is the issue with prosperity, it is other people's. The more money I have the more people I can reach with the message of good news. It is not sufficient for me to sit down and count my blessings one by one and ignore the ignorance of the world.

I have read through this thread and I wanted to commend you on your posts. Reps to you.

All of 2 Corinthians chapters 8-9 is talking about money. The fact that someone can read through those two chapters and see it talking about money, and then change the meaning in the middle of the chapter at verse 9 to add the imaginary word 'spiritual' riches (in their own mind only, as it does not appear in the text), shows the degree that ones presuppostions and personal theology can twist the plain meaning of the text to make it say whatever they want it to say.

Jesus became poor in "money" and in "things" when He went to the cross, and they took everything, including the clothes on His back, not when He laid aside His divinity to take on flesh as the seed of Abraham. Jesus didn't have any money to lay aside in heaven, unless you believe that God is issuing coins up there, nor did He have clothing to lay aside, as in heaven one is clothed in righteousness.

Jesus became poor in money and things, that we might be rich in money and things. This is not the primary purpose of the gospel, but it is truth nonetheless. It is one of the areas that Christ provided redemtion for us, whether we avail ourselves of it or not.

The reasons for this are twofold:

1) God loves us and wants to bless us
2) God expects us to love others with the things that He has given to us

The main problem that I have with the so-called "prosperity message" are its messengers, many of which have found it to be a good fund raising tool. On the one hand I don't judge them, or blame them, (God can judge His own servants and doesn't need my help for that). Media is incredibly expensive, and I can't even imagine the financial pressure of maintaining a large media ministry. However, hypocrisy is not hard to spot, and most people know it when they see it. I know this may sound harsh, but those who are preaching the posperity message on national/international television, and yet do not live by faith themselves, but rather live on how well they can manipulate money out of the hands of their listeners through false promises and guilt, are one of the main reasons that the prosperity critics have a following. To be fair, there are many well known television ministers that dont do such, but there seem to be as many or more who do, and it has given cause for the accuser of the brethren to sound legitimate in his cirticism to those who see such hypocrisy so blatantly displayed, and/or have found themselves victims of such manipulation.

The main cause of this manipulation is the doctrine of sowing and reaping, which is greatly misunderstood and misrepresented. The law of sowing and reaping is a natural law, put in place at the beginning, and it applies equally to believers and non-believers alike. In Christ we operate under a higher law, that being the law of Grace. We reap what Christ sowed:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

While it is true that the natural law of sowing and reaping works for christians, it is not the primary source of our faith. What Christ sowed on the cross is the primary source of our faith, and the basis of our confession. Of course, the problem with the grace message, is that it is not as conducive to manipulating money out of the hands of the faithful, as the sowing and reaping message is. Telling one that God blesses them based primarily on what Christ did, does little to motivate one to give sacrificially; however, telling them that God blesses them based on what they give can easily motivate one to do so, as most of us tend to act in our own self interest. Thus the trend towards the latter at the expense of the former, as a means to raise funds, IMHO.

Peace...
 
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psalms 91

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Amen! Just wanted to give another testimony. My car the other day got an engine warning light, I researched and found that it can be the gas I use or more serious things. I dont really have the money to get an engine repairted so prayed about it. Today after running out some of the gas that was in it and checking fluid levels and so on I was driving and it went out. Answered prayer. Now some might say it was just the gas but to someone like me that cant afford to replace things much it was a miracle! I have had God do things like this before and He takes care of not only me but my things as well. God bless you all.
 
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dkbwarrior

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Amen! Just wanted to give another testimony. My car the other day got an engine warning light, I researched and found that it can be the gas I use or more serious things. I dont really have the money to get an engine repairted so prayed about it. Today after running out some of the gas that was in it and checking fluid levels and so on I was driving and it went out. Answered prayer. Now some might say it was just the gas but to someone like me that cant afford to replace things much it was a miracle! I have had God do things like this before and He takes care of not only me but my things as well. God bless you all.

Good point, and good word. Sometimes I lose out on a bid for a job to a competitor. In such cases, I don't look at it as a loss, but a gain. I thank God for protecting me from whatever bad outcome that job may have entailed had I gotten it. Or, when I am in a hurry and miss my freeway exit, I don't get mad, I thank God for saving me from a possible accident, or other bad thing that may have been going to happen, had I gone that way at that time. I am content and believe that His angels are constantly directing my steps and keeping me out of danger, making all things work together for my good, even when they sometimes don't look that way to others, or even myself.

Peace...
 
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psalms 91

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Amen! God is always with us and He cares about the littlest thing to us. As you said, many times we do not know why but I also believe it is God keeping us from some sort of harm. It is easy when it is good but harder when it seems bad but I have learned that God is with me whether up or down and many times the downs are to teach me something or open up an opportunity that I otherwise wouldnt have had.
 
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dkbwarrior

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The main problem that I have with the so-called "prosperity message" are its messengers, many of which have found it to be a good fund raising tool. On the one hand I don't judge them, or blame them, (God can judge His own servants and doesn't need my help for that). Media is incredibly expensive, and I can't even imagine the financial pressure of maintaining a large media ministry. However, hypocrisy is not hard to spot, and most people know it when they see it. I know this may sound harsh, but those who are preaching the posperity message on national/international television, and yet do not live by faith themselves, but rather live on how well they can manipulate money out of the hands of their listeners through false promises and guilt, are one of the main reasons that the prosperity critics have a following. To be fair, there are many well known television ministers that dont do such, but there seem to be as many or more who do, and it has given cause for the accuser of the brethren to sound legitimate in his cirticism to those who see such hypocrisy so blatantly displayed, and/or have found themselves victims of such manipulation.

The main cause of this manipulation is the doctrine of sowing and reaping, which is greatly misunderstood and misrepresented. The law of sowing and reaping is a natural law, put in place at the beginning, and it applies equally to believers and non-believers alike. In Christ we operate under a higher law, that being the law of Grace. We reap what Christ sowed:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

While it is true that the natural law of sowing and reaping works for christians, it is not the primary source of our faith. What Christ sowed on the cross is the primary source of our faith, and the basis of our confession. Of course, the problem with the grace message, is that it is not as conducive to manipulating money out of the hands of the faithful, as the sowing and reaping message is. Telling one that God blesses them based primarily on what Christ did, does little to motivate one to give sacrificially; however, telling them that God blesses them based on what they give can easily motivate one to do so, as most of us tend to act in our own self interest. Thus the trend towards the latter at the expense of the former, as a means to raise funds, IMHO.

Peace...

I wanted to add that the doctrine of sowing and reaping is biblical and sound. It is taught correctly by most, it is simply the emphases that I disagree with.

Much like Paul taught a whole chapter on the gifts of the Spirit, yet then went on to say, "..yet I show unto you a more excellent way", and proceeded to talk about love.

There are many principles and laws that are taught by many in the church that are correct and true, yet they are systems that can be, and have been, superceded by the laws of faith and grace and love. Trying to follow these rules is good, and may be neccesary for us in order to instill discipline and guide us, however, once our senses are excercised to discern good from evil, we should be able to move on into the realm of grace and perfection.

Sowing and reaping is a good thing. However, your sowing will never be perfect over your life, because you still live in a fleshly body. Having faith in ones own sowing ability will let one down in time, I gaurantee you. But placing your faith in the promises of God that are based on the perfect seed sown by God on the cross at calvary will never let you down. That is an incorruptible inheritance, eternal in the heavens, where we are seated with Him at the right hand of the Father.

Peace...
 
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Miss Elly

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I have an idea of my own. But first, here's a few Scriptures...

8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Joshua 1:8

4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalm 37:4

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3

18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. Deuteronomy 8:18

5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. Deuteronomy 30:5

9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers Deuteronomy 30:9

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psalm 1:1-3

10The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing. Psalm 34:10

27Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. Psalm 35:27

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33

It is quite difficult indeed to look at the above Scriptures (and these are only a few -- there are MANY more) and truly not understand that God wants to prosper His kids. So why is it that so many people resist this teaching?

I am interested in hearing others' viewpoints on this, because in all things I want to be thoroughly equipped to minister to others. Studying to show myself approved so to speak.

From my perspective, I can see two issues here. First, I think there are those who simply cannot believe these teachings because of failings in their own lives. They think that since they themselves haven't prospered (for whatever reason), then it must not be sound doctrine.

The second issue (and it can actually be closely linked to the first when one thinks about it) is a good example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". What I mean is that there are those who reject prosperity teachings not because they are unbiblical, but because they don't trust other human beings (and themselves really) with doctrine so wonderful. These are the sorts of folks who like to throw around the words "greed", "lust for money", etc. As if teaching prosperity automatically confers these sorts of sinful thoughts on someone. They seem almost afraid of these teachings, for fear of what human beings might twist them (and HAVE done so BTW) into meaning. Like a preacher who might say, "Give to this ministry from all of your life's savings, and all of your lines of credit, and you will be unbelievably rich!!" Sure, there are thieves out there. And there are those people who believe in prosperity without ONE thought for the Kingdom of God, as we are admonished to seek first in Matthew 6:33. And there are those who want nothing more than to be completely filthy rich, but have no spiritual maturity. These souls should be prayed for, that their hearts and minds come into agreement with what SCRIPTURE teaches about prosperity. But the thing is, such distorted views of Scripture, in my humble opinion, should not negate an important teaching. Just because someone abuses a Scriptural principle does not render the teaching itself null and void. That is what I mean by "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this matter.


My thoughts are this.....God does want his people to be blessed. However, sometimes this is all the gospel that some preach....give and you will prosper financially. The gospel is that Jesus died and rose again. That is first and foremost, not how this old flesh is supposed to never suffer an instant of pain or poverty. We all have trials in this life, and according to your faith, Jesus said, be it unto to you. Don't seek prosperity, seek Jesus Christ for he says "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you". Would any of the WoF folks still serve God if they found themselves suddenly penniless? Or stricken with a devasting illness. Yet this does happen to a lot of christians and they must learn to stand on God's word.

I know of a very dear lady a few years ago, who was bound and determined to "claim" her healing for her infected leg. She quoted scriptures constantly, told God he had to heal her because his word said so, etc. etc. She was constantly rebuking the devil. She got gangerene in her leg and refused treatment because she had "claimed" her healing. It got worse until she died. I believe she was very sincere, I prayed for her a lot also. I know she is in heaven because she loved God. There is a balance in all of this. We are to be obedient to God and trust in Him, no matter what we go through.

Something funny, my old pastor used to say that if you believe sickness is a blessing, ask God for two cancers instead of one. God does bless his people, but there is a condition to be met. No doubt many run around spouting off the promises of God, that they are blessed, prospered, etc. etc and fail to live up to the conditions. Wisdom is deserving of her children. Faith is a verb, it denotes action and is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. So if there doesn't come any substance in response to their "faith", then somebody does not know the mind of God.
 
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dkbwarrior

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My thoughts are this.....God does want his people to be blessed. However, sometimes this is all the gospel that some preach....give and you will prosper financially. The gospel is that Jesus died and rose again. That is first and foremost, not how this old flesh is supposed to never suffer an instant of pain or poverty. We all have trials in this life, and according to your faith, Jesus said, be it unto to you. Don't seek prosperity, seek Jesus Christ for he says "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you".

I would agree with this assessment 100%. The gospel is the death burial and ressurection of Jesus, and by extension, the covenant that His body and shed blood confirmed for us that are In Him, (which includes all of the promises contained in said covenant).

The promises that cover our financial need, for money or things, are simply leaves on that tree, not the root, and not even the trunk; yet they are part of the tree.

I have listened to some ministers on television, where the entire segment, every day/week was a teaching on sowing and reaping and what size seed the listener needed to sow to the televangelist that week. Every show, every time, was about that. This is not a good representation of the cross or Christ, nor of the gospel. It is manipulation, and brings reproach on the body, specifically WoF.

On the other hand, I have listened to many WoF ministers that rarely if every ask for money, though they may teach on it occasionally. Yet, because when they teach on it they say that God wishes us to prosper or be rich, they are lumped in with the former by the critics. For instance, Kenneth Copeland never asks for money, and teaches on it only occasionally. Yet he is the poster boy for the critics. (Just an example.)

Would any of the WoF folks still serve God if they found themselves suddenly penniless? Or stricken with a devasting illness. Yet this does happen to a lot of christians and they must learn to stand on God's word.

Please excuse me if I am reading the wrong thing into this statement but it appears to me that you are making an assumption that most WoF folks have money. It may be true that some are wealthy, however, in my experience, most that come into WoF are pretty much penniless when they come in. Much of the attraction to the poor in the WoF message is that God doesn't want them to remain so poor that they cannot pay their rent, don't know if the power is going to be shut off or not, or how they are going to buy food next week for their family.

Many then leave, because their root was shallow, and when they don't get rich or healed in a few weeks they throw it out the window and move into the anti-faith crowd and become a critic. They don't realize that sowing and reaping takes time, it is a lifestyle, not a magic trick.

Others hang around and do get wealthy,or at least feel adequately secure financially, and then leave because the word gets choked by weeds. The false security of a good job and a retirement fund and a weekly paycheck that meets all their needs makes then think they no longer need God. Mabey they don't think that consciously, but in their actions they quit making God or His body or His Word a priority in their lives.

Do you know that the fastest growing segment of WoF (or prosperity gospel as the critics would call it) is in the poorest part of the world, namely Africa? There has been much discussion and some sincere consternation by many mainline churches and theologians about how they have had missionaries living in some African countries for decades, and in some cases generations, barely able to put together a small congregation of believers, but when the faith message came in, first with TL Osborne, then Reihnhart Bonnke, then a true explosion with TBN pushing for stations all across Africa, suddenly christianity exploded throughout the continent. Some countries are predominantly christian now, and the percentage of those believers that self identify with the WoF message is upwards of 80%.

I know of a very dear lady a few years ago, who was bound and determined to "claim" her healing for her infected leg. She quoted scriptures constantly, told God he had to heal her because his word said so, etc. etc. She was constantly rebuking the devil. She got gangerene in her leg and refused treatment because she had "claimed" her healing. It got worse until she died. I believe she was very sincere, I prayed for her a lot also. I know she is in heaven because she loved God. There is a balance in all of this. We are to be obedient to God and trust in Him, no matter what we go through.

Something funny, my old pastor used to say that if you believe sickness is a blessing, ask God for two cancers instead of one. God does bless his people, but there is a condition to be met. No doubt many run around spouting off the promises of God, that they are blessed, prospered, etc. etc and fail to live up to the conditions. Wisdom is deserving of her children.

I agree with your assessment about wisdom. I most certainly would have gone to the doctor myself, while I was believing God, as I believe Gods desires our health, and will use any means, including doctors, surgery and medication to that end.
However, I think that you are misreading this womans faith. I believe that the greatest rewards in heaven are reserved for those that stand in faith for things they do not see, even past the point of death. Consider the following scripture:

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy, they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
-Hebrews 11:13, 36-39​


Faith is a verb, it denotes action and is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. So if there doesn't come any substance in response to their "faith", then somebody does not know the mind of God.

I have to disagree with both of these statements.

Regarding the first, faith comes from the Greek "pistis", and it is a noun. It is a substance, not an action. This makes it a noun, not a verb. Please look it up in any greek dictionary/lexicon, by any denomination or christian persuasion and you will see that this is one thing that all agree on, faith is a noun.

This is because it is God's essence. It is who He is. There are three that remain, faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. The reason that these three are eternal is because they are the makeup or essence of God. They are what He is. He is faith, He is hope, and He is love.

Believing, on the other hand, is a verb. It is what we do with our faith, believe Gods Word. We don't faith God, we believe God with our faith. I know that often poeple use the terms interchangeably, but they are not the same thing.

Regarding the second, as the scripture I posted above shows, dying in faith, not yet seeing the promise, is not a sign of small faith, in fact, just the opposite, it is the sign of the greatest faith. The world is not worthy of those who will stand on the promises of God, regarless of whether they die or not.

I would rather believe God for my healing and die, than not believe Him and die. Any day of the week.

Peace...
 
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donnamabob

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I wanted to add that the doctrine of sowing and reaping is biblical and sound. It is taught correctly by most, it is simply the emphases that I disagree with.

Much like Paul taught a whole chapter on the gifts of the Spirit, yet then went on to say, "..yet I show unto you a more excellent way", and proceeded to talk about love.

There are many principles and laws that are taught by many in the church that are correct and true, yet they are systems that can be, and have been, superceded by the laws of faith and grace and love. Trying to follow these rules is good, and may be neccesary for us in order to instill discipline and guide us, however, once our senses are excercised to discern good from evil, we should be able to move on into the realm of grace and perfection.

Sowing and reaping is a good thing. However, your sowing will never be perfect over your life, because you still live in a fleshly body. Having faith in ones own sowing ability will let one down in time, I gaurantee you. But placing your faith in the promises of God that are based on the perfect seed sown by God on the cross at calvary will never let you down. That is an incorruptible inheritance, eternal in the heavens, where we are seated with Him at the right hand of the Father.

Peace...


I read your last few posts, and you seem to really know what your talking about, so maybe you can give me your take on this...

I had to learn about the whole "false prosperity" doctrine the hard way, and your right when you say that there really is an emphasis on sewing and reaping when it comes to that. I was taught that you could claim certain amounts of money or even material posessions by making financial donations (in other words, giving to get something in return). The idea was that you were sewing, and since sewing is a biblical principal it absolutely had to "work" or else you were doing something wrong (IE lack of faith). I thought that since you could claim physical healing then you could claim anything. It took me a really long time to realize that this wasn't "working" for anyone I knew that was buying into the doctrine and finally concluded that something was wrong (especially when the pastor took his 3rd cruise that year). Once I concluded that I was giving with the wrong motive, I stopped giving entirely, just to get my bearings straight - and that's when I finally saw the financial breakthrough that I was trying to sew into all that time. I concluded that the Lord must be more pleased with someone who isn't even giving anything then with someone who is giving with selfish motives.

(I started giving again, but now I give out of my heart and only places that I sense are okay to give to - and I'm now living a very abundant life)
 
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psalms 91

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That is the key, you sow where the Holy Spirit tells you to, that is your good ground, nowhere else. However, I am a strong believer in the tithe and have seen it work in my life. If you are being fed at a church then you should support that ministry. If you cant agree with it then find one where you can and go there.
 
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bloodbought09

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I have been tithing and offering faithfully for a long time now and have even increased my giving, but now I am in a time where I am staying with my sister and things are just given to me that I cannot tithe on. I have a little income left in my wallet. Enough for gas and a few things until I get some work, but God has really found a way to stretch what I have. I really want some work so that I can start contributing to the kingdom of God and be able to go to church with the options of going on Mondays and Thursdays for bible study and Wednesday service all at 7 pm, and church on Sundays. I cannot get there if I have no job. And I have a desire to be there and I do not see why God would not want me to go. I have to get a move on and find a job, but I want a lot more income than the last 3 or 4 years. God knows I will give into His work, but I have to have time to do things for the kingdom physically present. I just have to get in there and start getting cultivated again. This church is involved in christian apologetics type of thinking and witnessing or whatever, and I am definately called to apologetics. That is the problem with a lot of apologists, if they are not called in the first place, it is not going to be effective. We cannot just be christian apologists, we must be born-again. It is not our reasoning that converts, but the Spirit of God and the power of the gospel.
 
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bloodbought09

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The only problem I have with prosperity is when it is so superficial. I give my tithe and offering, and God does open up the windows of heaven. He opens them up in me and gives me wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and teaches me to be diligent and have integrity. He does not give me 100 dollars if I give Him one. He has so much more for us than just giving us a dirty piece of paper. The stuff He gives us will sustain us even if the dirty pieces of paper do not come in. We can be content if we are abased or abound. The spiritual tools that He gives us, mostly chastening and rebuke is to change or to refine us so that we may receive even financial blessings. What are we to say of God? Is He going to raise a bunch of ungrateful brats, giving them 100 fold for what they put in the offering? I do not think God raises brats. I do not even think He works behind those who just preach prosperity and tithing, get puffed up in their flesh and call it the Holy Spirit. It reminds a lot of the same spirit behind being at a football game and your team is winning. What happens when the other team takes the lead, then you get sad. I do not feel like watching these people talking about prosperity. It just seems so base and low. It is beyond the level of milk and I am ready for the meat. Yes, I would rather come out from among them and be made separate. When we separate ourselves, that is a work of the flesh, but when we are born-again, the Spirit separates us, and if we are willing and obedient will sanctify us completely. Be blessed.
 
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donnamabob

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The spiritual tools that He gives us, mostly chastening and rebuke is to change or to refine us so that we may receive even financial blessings.

I don't know if I would necessarily say that chastening and rebuke are 'tools' per-se, but I totally agree with this statement. As we know, money is the root of all kinds of evil - and obviously God knows this as well - so why would he give it to someone whom he knows cannot handled it? He would be setting them up for spiritual failure if he did.

I would say that it is very mature of you, being someone who is not currently prospering financially to understand this. When I was in your shoes, I knew that I was missing it somewhere but it took me a very long time to understand that God is more concerned with our spiritual well being then our financial prosperity. I thought that I just didn't "have enough faith to make the 100 fold return manifest" haha.

I did learn though, that while the Lord did not promise to prosper us financially (although he wants to be able to), he did promise to always meet our needs, and in my own life I have seen this to be true.
 
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bloodbought09

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I don't know if I would necessarily say that chastening and rebuke are 'tools' per-se, but I totally agree with this statement. As we know, money is the root of all kinds of evil - and obviously God knows this as well - so why would he give it to someone whom he knows cannot handled it? He would be setting them up for spiritual failure if he did.

I would say that it is very mature of you, being someone who is not currently prospering financially to understand this. When I was in your shoes, I knew that I was missing it somewhere but it took me a very long time to understand that God is more concerned with our spiritual well being then our financial prosperity. I thought that I just didn't "have enough faith to make the 100 fold return manifest" haha.

I did learn though, that while the Lord did not promise to prosper us financially (although he wants to be able to), he did promise to always meet our needs, and in my own life I have seen this to be true.

Well, truthfully God uses persecution and affliction to refine us. Picking up our cross can be a heavy burden, but it is His burden. What is sad is to see someone who is obviously straw or hay, that pretends to be refined gold.
 
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map4

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Would any of the WoF folks still serve God if they found themselves suddenly penniless? Or stricken with a devasting illness. Yet this does happen to a lot of christians and they must learn to stand on God's word.

The irony of your statement is, that true WoF, as I know it anyway, teaches one to do just what you said..stand on God's word when or if they find themselves in those situations.

I've gone to the same church for 19 years. It has had two pastors and both graduated from Rhema. Neither of them has taught that we would NEVER have bad things happen. The emphasis has been on what to do when the bad things do happen. The emphasis has been on the victory we have over the circumstances. Victory in Christ. And to stand, however long, on the promises of God. Even unto death, as was mentioned by dkbwarrior.

In the 19 years I have been going to this church, we have had many guest preachers/teachers. All of them would be considered wof, and NONE of them have presented a 'gospel of never having bad things happen'.

Sadly, some have gone off the deep end and totally misconstrued what true wof teaches. Such as, 'prosper' does not mean filthy rich. And if one goes to church or gives with that attitude then their motives were wrong to begin with...no matter if the preacher preached that or not.
However, I do agree that some preachers/teachers do put way too much emphasis on money. And it has given a tarnished image of others who don't. And it makes it really hard for those who don't put emphasis on money when we use the words 'prosper' or 'bless'. It's automatically assumed we mean that we should be rich. Not everyone can handle being that rich financially, wof or not. The temptations are great when you have that much money. It would be a downfall to some. Therefore, I don't think God allows many of us TO have that much money, and so some think that the 'prosperity message' doesn't work. But it's their twisted idea of what prosperity IS that makes it 'not work'.
God promises to meet our needs, not make us filthy rich.
He says He'll bless us, not make us filthy rich.
There is a difference, imo.
 
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donnamabob

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Hey everyone, I found a great article online (by accident) yesterday. I went to a couple of so-called "word of faith" ministers websites to read up on what they had to say about prosperity, and was beside myself to learn that what their teaching IS COMPLETELY FALSE DOCTRINE! I literally gasped and googled "Kenneth Hagin Prosperity" to see what he had to say about it, and thats when I stumbled upon this article and was able to let out a sigh of relief. As soon as I read this I went on amazon and ordered "The Midas Touch" I can't wait to read it!

I had to learn everything I know about the false prosperity gospel by being burned by it and learning the truth through prayer and study - Everything that the Lord taught me individually is touched upon in this article, it serves as such a wonderful confirmation to me that the Lord truly was speaking to my heart. This was HONESTLY the first time I'd read anything that I believe to be true that was taught by a "prosperity teacher", so I'm more then a little bit excited (until now I had almost given up on the idea of any preacher teaching truth on the matter!)

Anyway, if you want to check it out, it's a quick read (but it blessed my socks off) Kenneth Hagin’s Forgotten Warning
 
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Jedi.Kep

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Hey everyone, I found a great article online (by accident) yesterday. I went to a couple of so-called "word of faith" ministers websites to read up on what they had to say about prosperity, and was beside myself to learn that what their teaching IS COMPLETELY FALSE DOCTRINE! I literally gasped and googled "Kenneth Hagin Prosperity" to see what he had to say about it, and thats when I stumbled upon this article and was able to let out a sigh of relief. As soon as I read this I went on amazon and ordered "The Midas Touch" I can't wait to read it!

I had to learn everything I know about the false prosperity gospel by being burned by it and learning the truth through prayer and study - Everything that the Lord taught me individually is touched upon in this article, it serves as such a wonderful confirmation to me that the Lord truly was speaking to my heart. This was HONESTLY the first time I'd read anything that I believe to be true that was taught by a "prosperity teacher", so I'm more then a little bit excited (until now I had almost given up on the idea of any preacher teaching truth on the matter!)

Anyway, if you want to check it out, it's a quick read (but it blessed my socks off) Kenneth Hagin’s Forgotten Warning

Praise the Lord! I'm so glad you found that book. You will be blessed by it. I think that book should be required reading for all Word of Faith people to help correct the excesses that are out there.

I can't tell you how happy I am for you! Enjoy the read!
 
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Jedi.Kep

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If we preach nothing but sowing into the kingdom for a return, where is the time devoted to preaching the gospel?

Sowing is a part of preaching the gospel. Just as much as righteous living, fruit of the spirit, forgiveness, healing, b.o.t.s, joy, giving ourselves to others in service, etc. It's all part of preaching the gospel. If you overfocus on one teaching, then clearly that is wrong.
 
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dkbwarrior

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I read your last few posts, and you seem to really know what your talking about, so maybe you can give me your take on this...

I had to learn about the whole "false prosperity" doctrine the hard way, and your right when you say that there really is an emphasis on sewing and reaping when it comes to that. I was taught that you could claim certain amounts of money or even material posessions by making financial donations (in other words, giving to get something in return). The idea was that you were sewing, and since sewing is a biblical principal it absolutely had to "work" or else you were doing something wrong (IE lack of faith). I thought that since you could claim physical healing then you could claim anything. It took me a really long time to realize that this wasn't "working" for anyone I knew that was buying into the doctrine and finally concluded that something was wrong (especially when the pastor took his 3rd cruise that year). Once I concluded that I was giving with the wrong motive, I stopped giving entirely, just to get my bearings straight - and that's when I finally saw the financial breakthrough that I was trying to sew into all that time. I concluded that the Lord must be more pleased with someone who isn't even giving anything then with someone who is giving with selfish motives.

(I started giving again, but now I give out of my heart and only places that I sense are okay to give to - and I'm now living a very abundant life)

I had a similar experience, in fact, several christians I know have had similar experiences. I came to the point that after tithing for some years and giving in offerings, expecting my return, I was still in the same spot I was in before. I was still in debt, and I was running a deficit of a couple hundred dollars a month that I had to pay off when I got my tax return each year.

I stopped giving altogether, for a period of time, payed off my debt, moved to an area where we could buy a house for cash and lived on nothing for awhile in order to do so and not have a mortgage. Then we started giving again. Now we are giving as much if not more than we ever did before, and we are out of debt for the most part, (I still have 6 months left to pay on my truck on the 60 month loan, I'll never do that agian, trust me! I've paid for three trucks over the past five years, but only have one to show for it!)

It seems that in the church world as a whole, we can see grace in every aspect of the gospel except in the area of giving. Church leadership across the board tends to resist grace in the area of tithing and sowing and reaping. And I think that I am not the only one that has seen the inherent conflict of interest in this set of facts. It is the sole area that impacts the income and fanancial power of the paid mister and the church organization as a whole. One may suspect that church leadership generically speaking is not immune to reading into the Bible what is in their own best interest, to the possible harm of its followers.

Preachers/teachers should be paid. That is how it was established, by the law, and by the apostles; don't muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. And the better ones whould be paid better, even lavishly. I have no problem with a preacher driving a Mercedes, or living in a mansion. But that should not be their purpose in ministering the gospel, nor should it give them license to use the law of the tithe and the law of sowing and reaping to manipulate money out of the flock through condemnation and guilt from the letter of the law of tithing, and/or the assumed greed of sowing and reaping.

I heard a preacher say some time ago, (and I don't know who it was, but I thought there was a lot of wisdom in the statement, though it was contrary to all I have previously heard), that if you are paying your tithe, but not paying your debtors, then you are robbing your debtors. The same Bible that tells us to tithe, tells us to pay our debts, and to let our yea be yea, and our nay be nay.

I fully believe that God will give us the grace to get our own house in order. And I also believe that when the teacher of sowing and reaping manages to manipulate you into giving your mortgage money as a seed to get your hundredfold return, he/she is lining their own ministries pockets at the expense of the givers ability to pay their debt.

Peace...
 
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