Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

[Teclils]

Remember the good news: JESUS became poor in money so we could be rich in money. That is the absolute truth of God's Word.

I am not sure if I believe JESUS was poor in money...I think HE was poor because HE left Heaven and came to earth...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In my devotional reading, I discovered something very interesting: It was about how the grace of God works with different people. It said that God through the mystery of His will and purpose gives each person a measure of faith, and a portion of what this world has to offer. Some get more than others, and it comes through the grace of God. So there are wealthy Christians (not many) who are given prosperity and who give glory to God for it and still put Christ first in their lives and use their prosperity for good. And there are others who get just enough to pay their bills.

There is the temptation for those who do not get much in this world to envy those who have much more. The writer comforts those people by giving the less prosperous a greater measure of faith and more giftings in the Spirit. The writer then explains a farming principle (as existed in the time of writing - 1680) that the oxen used for service, pulling carts, ploughing, etc., are kept lean and muscular so their strength is maintained. The cattle that are destined for the slaughter house are fattened up with the best feed.

The principle is that God will often give prosperity to the wicked (those not converted to Christ) because they are being fattened up for the Judgment. He often gives them the best the world has to offer because that is all they are going to get, and also to show them that the fashion of the world will pass away when they die, and when they stand before God in the Judgment, they stand there poor, blind and naked.

But many times, God's people struggle on with just enough to keep a roof over their heads, clothes to wear, and food to eat, but they are building up treasure in heaven through their faith and love for Christ, so that when they stand before Christ, they are clothed with righteousness and are adorned with all the spiritual treasures that Christ has given then through their lives and in glory.

There are big temptations in having wealth, and it takes high calibre Christians who are called to be wealthy to be able to stay humble before God. It is not surprising that many of the pastors who have fallen from grace through grievous sins are wealthy, and their wealth has come to them through their ministries. Because they had become too high minded, thinking that they were special people because God had made them prosperous in the ministry, He allowed them to fall into grievous sin to show them that all they have and are is through the grace and mercy of God and not through their own skills or efforts.

Paul said that no matter what situation he found himself in, he was content. So whether he was ministering to hundreds and seeing the Holy Spirit do wonders, or whether he was chained up in prison facing death, he had the peace of God in him.

So, to teach that every Christian has to be prosperous in order to be in a right place with Him is an error. We are in a right place with God through the work of Christ on the cross for us and our faith in Him. Prosperity or not is under God's control and is awarded or withheld at His own pleasure. We have no control over that.

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

Oscarr,

My advice would be to read Christian literature less and read the Scripture more. Then you would know that Jesus became poor so that we could become rich. It is not fate or kismet or some unfathomable choice of God that one man is rich and another poor. God's will is that we prosper as our soul's prosper.

God wants you wealthy my friend. Prosperity does not make you right with God. But if you know that you are right with God and part of your being right with God is prosperity you will prosper. Sadly, many Christian's are captive in poverty due to lack of knowledge (Isa. 5.13)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,

My advice would be to read Christian literature less and read the Scripture more. Then you would know that Jesus became poor so that we could become rich. It is not fate or kismet or some unfathomable choice of God that one man is rich and another poor. God's will is that we prosper as our soul's prosper.

God wants you wealthy my friend. Prosperity does not make you right with God. But if you know that you are right with God and part of your being right with God is prosperity you will prosper. Sadly, many Christian's are captive in poverty due to lack of knowledge (Isa. 5.13)

Of course I don't go to the other extreme and say that good Christians should have a vow of poverty like some traditional denominations teach, but I believe that we have what we have by the grace and will of God. We have no direct control over it.

The richness that is spoken about in Scripture is in spiritual things. Paul says that what is seen is temporary but what is not seen is eternal. There is a church in Revelation which became rich and increased in goods but in His eyes they were poor, blind and naked. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell his worldly goods and follow Him. The rich young ruler went away sadly because his heart was in his wealth and he could not at that time put his wealth aside to follow Christ. James speaks about not giving preference to wealthy people in fellowship meetings, showing them to the best seats while instructing the poor to sit on the floor. Also there is the parable about the man who became rich and built bigger barns to store his wealth, but Jesus called him a fool because that night his soul was to be required of him and where he was going he could not take with wealth with him. Jesus said in that context what does it profit anyone if they gain the whole world but lose their own soul? So, this is what the Scripture teaches about wealth.

So, one can take individual Scriptures and build up a doctrine of prosperity on them, but they would have to ignore other Scriptures that point out quite clearly that prosperity is not directly linked with being in a good place with God spiritually. It is a reality that the Holy Spirit is doing many more signs and wonders in the Third World than in our Western World. Many Christians in the Third World are living in poverty or near poverty conditions, and yet they are much more blessed in the Spirit than many of our more wealthy Christians in the West. So, the reality of how the Holy Spirit works with people contradicts the prosperity doctrine.

The Lord has promised to meet our needs, not our wants.

My devotional reading is firmly based on Scripture and every point made is comprehensively backed up by Scripture.

I have had many experiences of the Lord meeting my family's financial needs, and I have been a Christian for 43 years now, and I have never gone without the things I have needed, and whatever material things I have asked for, God has supplied. Those things have not always been brand new, but they have met my needs completely. I own a 1989 Toyota with 230.000km on the clock, but it is still mechanically sound, not rusty, and drives well. I believe that it has maintained a good mechanical state through the grace of God. Why should I ditch it and buy a new car just for the sake of it? I am due to retire in a couple of years, and I believe that when it is God's time for me to have a replacement car, He will open the way to provide one. I went through university (college) as a mature student in my 30s and spent all my savings over four years. When I graduated I had no money. I started a teaching job, and (I was single at the time), and met and married a rich widow, whose husband had died of bone cancer three years before and left her with enough wealth that she did not need to work to support herself. I came into her life and we have been happily married now for 20 years. So, the Lord provided me with a new wife, a good home, a near brand new motor vehicle, and a good career, not because of my own efforts, but through His grace. I was told that her first husband had told on his death bed, "Don't let any other b... get her for her money." I assured her that I had no claim on her money, and I would not be claiming any of her money if our marriage ever broke up. We moved to another city and had the opportunity to buy a really nice home, so my wife put her money into that. Then I become redundant and had to move to a city where it was more expensive to live. So the home we have (the same value) is a lot smaller, but still quite comfortable and pleasant.

I am saying these things to show that I do believe that God looks after us in the world and does not leave us destitute. But I must say that when I gave up my well-paid teaching job and got a lower-paid job in the Ministry of Justice, God blessed me in bringing me into a fruitful ministry for Him as an elder of my church, and getting people baptised in the Spirit speaking in tongues. So, it is very true that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places.

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

Of course I don't go to the other extreme and say that good Christians should have a vow of poverty like some traditional denominations teach, but I believe that we have what we have by the grace and will of God. We have no direct control over it.

That lie will keep you from riches. The Bible is very clear that our giving, our speaking, our praying and our actions (Luke 6.38, Mark 11.23-24, James 2.24) directly affect our level of wealth.

The richness that is spoken about in Scripture is in spiritual things. Paul says that what is seen is temporary but what is not seen is eternal. There is a church in Revelation which became rich and increased in goods but in His eyes they were poor, blind and naked. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell his worldly goods and follow Him. The rich young ruler went away sadly because his heart was in his wealth and he could not at that time put his wealth aside to follow Christ. James speaks about not giving preference to wealthy people in fellowship meetings, showing them to the best seats while instructing the poor to sit on the floor. Also there is the parable about the man who became rich and built bigger barns to store his wealth, but Jesus called him a fool because that night his soul was to be required of him and where he was going he could not take with wealth with him. Jesus said in that context what does it profit anyone if they gain the whole world but lose their own soul? So, this is what the Scripture teaches about wealth.

Some good teachings. We should never favour the rich. We should never put money above Jesus. However, the Bible still says that Jesus became poor so we could be rich, and you can pen in the word spiritual if you want, but the context of 2 Cor. 8-9 will not allow to do that if you are honest with the Word of God.

So, one can take individual Scriptures and build up a doctrine of prosperity on them, but they would have to ignore other Scriptures that point out quite clearly that prosperity is not directly linked with being in a good place with God spiritually. It is a reality that the Holy Spirit is doing many more signs and wonders in the Third World than in our Western World. Many Christians in the Third World are living in poverty or near poverty conditions, and yet they are much more blessed in the Spirit than many of our more wealthy Christians in the West. So, the reality of how the Holy Spirit works with people contradicts the prosperity doctrine.

No it doesn't. Prosperity, like signs and wonders, comes as we operate in faith. If you listen to the good news that Jesus came to make you well you will receive your healing. If you listen to and keep listening to the good news that Jesus came to make you rich, you will inevitably end up rich.

The Lord has promised to meet our needs, not our wants.

I have already shown that He died poor so we could be rich. 3 John 2 promises prosperity, and Psalm 23.1 says that we shall not WANT.

My devotional reading is firmly based on Scripture and every point made is comprehensively backed up by Scripture.

Then why is what you are saying at variance with Scripture then?

I have had many experiences of the Lord meeting my family's financial needs, and I have been a Christian for 43 years now, and I have never gone without the things I have needed, and whatever material things I have asked for, God has supplied. Those things have not always been brand new, but they have met my needs completely. I own a 1989 Toyota with 230.000km on the clock, but it is still mechanically sound, not rusty, and drives well. I believe that it has maintained a good mechanical state through the grace of God. Why should I ditch it and buy a new car just for the sake of it?

I am glad you have seen God meet your needs. However your imagination and love is very limited when it comes to material possessions. Why ditch the car? Why not give it to someone who has no car? Why not give it to a single mother? Why not believe God for the money to have 4 cars and give them all away?

I am due to retire in a couple of years, and I believe that when it is God's time for me to have a replacement car, He will open the way to provide one. I went through university (college) as a mature student in my 30s and spent all my savings over four years. When I graduated I had no money. I started a teaching job, and (I was single at the time), and met and married a rich widow, whose husband had died of bone cancer three years before and left her with enough wealth that she did not need to work to support herself. I came into her life and we have been happily married now for 20 years. So, the Lord provided me with a new wife, a good home, a near brand new motor vehicle, and a good career, not because of my own efforts, but through His grace. I was told that her first husband had told on his death bed, "Don't let any other b... get her for her money." I assured her that I had no claim on her money, and I would not be claiming any of her money if our marriage ever broke up. We moved to another city and had the opportunity to buy a really nice home, so my wife put her money into that. Then I become redundant and had to move to a city where it was more expensive to live. So the home we have (the same value) is a lot smaller, but still quite comfortable and pleasant.

I am saying these things to show that I do believe that God looks after us in the world and does not leave us destitute. But I must say that when I gave up my well-paid teaching job and got a lower-paid job in the Ministry of Justice, God blessed me in bringing me into a fruitful ministry for Him as an elder of my church, and getting people baptised in the Spirit speaking in tongues. So, it is very true that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places.

I am glad you are seeing a measure of the victory and glory of God. If you never believe it, fine, but if you do God wants you wealthy. You may think you don't need it, but you could give so much more and change so many people's lives so much more. You could help give the gospel out more and more.

So many people are so limited when it comes to prosperity. They get enough to pay their electric bill and are so excited. Why not dream of paying the electric bill of everyone in the church. You say your car is fine for you, but what about the single mum with three children who has to get up at 7am to get to church because the Sunday bus service is so bad. How much would she appreciate you having two cars, or four cars, or ten cars?

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

I am not sure if I believe JESUS was poor in money...I think HE was poor because HE left Heaven and came to earth...

If you read your Bible in context you will be sure because that is what it says: He became poor so we could be rich. And the context is clearly money. 2 Cor. 8 if you don't know...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That lie will keep you from riches. The Bible is very clear that our giving, our speaking, our praying and our actions (Luke 6.38, Mark 11.23-24, James 2.24) directly affect our level of wealth.

I have already shown that He died poor so we could be rich. 3 John 2 promises prosperity, and Psalm 23.1 says that we shall not WANT.

I am already rich. I am the righteousness of God in Christ (Romans 3:21, 22), and I have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3). So, if I have Christ, then I have everything right now. What more do I need or want?

 

[ahigherway]

Sometimes we forget that it is more blessed to GIVE than to receive.

Blessings,
brian

 

[Teclils]

If you read your Bible in context you will be sure because that is what it says: He became poor so we could be rich. And the context is clearly money. 2 Cor. 8 if you don't know...

I do not believe that the word poor here means material wealth...JESUS came from Heaven to earth ...if you ask me Heaven is a wealthy place comopared to earth but I believe our richness is spiritual

in saying that I do not believe HE wants us poor in wealth, relationships , spiritually etc...as to be wealthy in material and $$$ we all have HIS blessing to do so and that is between the person and HIM...

 

[Teclils]

If you read your Bible in context you will be sure because that is what it says: He became poor so we could be rich. And the context is clearly money. 2 Cor. 8 if you don't know...

I believe HIS poornes was that he was beaten and hung on a tree like a criminal as if he was nothing a no body...

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

I am not going to post 2 Cor 8 and 9 here so everyone can see that the context is money, you should be able to read it for yourself.

I agree with Oscarr that being righteous is true wealth, but it is not his salvation that is the issue with prosperity, it is other people's. The more money I have the more people I can reach with the message of good news. It is not sufficient for me to sit down and count my blessings one by one and ignore the ignorance of the world.

 

[Teclils]

I agree with Oscarr that being righteous is true wealth, but it is not his salvation that is the issue with prosperity, it is other people's. The more money I have the more people I can reach with the message of good news. It is not sufficient for me to sit down and count my blessings one by one and ignore the ignorance of the world.

I totally agree with you on the more money the more people that can be reached...I don't believe that being rich is a sin it is when your Riches are your idols and replace GOD when it becomes a sin...I myself do not have a problem with the prosperity msg...but there are some teachings with it that I question...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I totally agree with you on the more money the more people that can be reached...I don't believe that being rich is a sin it is when your Riches are your idols and replace GOD when it becomes a sin...I myself do not have a problem with the prosperity msg...but there are some teachings with it that I question...

I agree with you. To me prosperity is a bonus that God gives to those He has purposed to be prosperous because that is the way they can serve God most effectively.

To be honest, we'd all like to be prosperous and have plenty of money to do the things we want. But, of course, economic theory says that there will always be limited resources and unlimited wants. So, by this principle, the more resources in terms of money, the greater the wants. Even multi millionaires can be unhappy and unsatisfied because there will have been a growth in their wants to the degree that not even their millions will satisfy the wants they may have. This is the snare of riches, and it takes a special believer to be able to have riches and still be totally dependent on Christ.

When our church was building its manse a few years ago, there were no funds for it and it looked like we had to get a mortgage. We had a builder in the church who would do the labour for next to nothing, but we needed $35,000 to end up with a debt free manse. In a prayer meeting, we decided to ask God for it, so we ask specifically for the money. Within three months that money came in and the manse was debt free by the time it was built. So God has demonstrated that He will always finance His will, whether it be for us personally or as a church.

 

[donnamabob]

I agree with you. To me prosperity is a bonus that God gives to those He has purposed to be prosperous because that is the way they can serve God most effectively.

To be honest, we'd all like to be prosperous and have plenty of money to do the things we want. But, of course, economic theory says that there will always be limited resources and unlimited wants. So, by this principle, the more resources in terms of money, the greater the wants. Even multi millionaires can be unhappy and unsatisfied because there will have been a growth in their wants to the degree that not even their millions will satisfy the wants they may have. This is the snare of riches, and it takes a special believer to be able to have riches and still be totally dependent on Christ.

When our church was building its manse a few years ago, there were no funds for it and it looked like we had to get a mortgage. We had a builder in the church who would do the labour for next to nothing, but we needed $35,000 to end up with a debt free manse. In a prayer meeting, we decided to ask God for it, so we ask specifically for the money. Within three months that money came in and the manse was debt free by the time it was built. So God has demonstrated that He will always finance His will, whether it be for us personally or as a church.

I've come to the understanding that while we certainly are not promised riches (which is where the false prosperity gospel misses it by teaching that you can "claim" them), the Lord does desire to financially prosper those he can trust (and those who will not be harmed spiritually). Not so that they can have a luxurious lifestyle, but so that they can bless others in his name.

2 Corinthians 9:11-12 "You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God."

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

The Bible says it is the prosperity of a fool destroys them. If you want to be wealthy, you don't have to be a super-class of Christians (an unscriptural idea, based on economic theory which is entirely unspiritual) you just have to stop being a fool.

Now if only the Bible promised that God would generously give wisdom to anyone who asked without reproach then we could all prosper as our souls prosper.

Now I am new to this forum, but it seems that this subforum is for Word of Faith people (people who have faith that God wants them well and wealthy, among other things).

Maybe you should start a thread in the non-faith forum so you can discuss economic theory or call the gospel false or so on, then we in the faith forum would know that we only have faith stuff in here and encourage each other in prospering each other's souls so we can be as wealthy as possible so we can preach the gospel to the nations.

Thanks!

 

[psalms 91]

The Bible says it is the prosperity of a fool destroys them. If you want to be wealthy, you don't have to be a super-class of Christians (an unscriptural idea, based on economic theory which is entirely unspiritual) you just have to stop being a fool.

Now if only the Bible promised that God would generously give wisdom to anyone who asked without reproach then we could all prosper as our souls prosper.

Now I am new to this forum, but it seems that this subforum is for Word of Faith people (people who have faith that God wants them well and wealthy, among other things).

Maybe you should start a thread in the non-faith forum so you can discuss economic theory or call the gospel false or so on, then we in the faith forum would know that we only have faith stuff in here and encourage each other in prospering each other's souls so we can be as wealthy as possible so we can preach the gospel to the nations.

Thanks!

Been done over and over and the end result isa name calling, belittling what we believe and so on, thuas this forum. If we want to debate these doctrines there is plenty of opportunity but I for one am tired of it and I know what God has shown me and what has worked for me. I am not wealthy in the worlds view but God has always supplied what I had need of and always in ways I couldnt see. I am not where I am today because of me but because God has honored His word and supplied when there was no way

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

I don't mind a good debate. Always easier when what you believe is based on the Word of God and not theory of man.

I had hoped that this sub-forum would simply be a place to discuss and build each other up. There are a couple of threads and people that do (Cindy's one, and Shepherd's one come to mind) but it seems people just want to chuck water on people that are on fire.

Ah well...

 

[psalms 91]

In the main forum you get that. I want to tell of Gods goodness and His suppluy and see the Word that says He supplies al;l my need and testify that He does. I just dont like people telling me what I mean and twisting doctrine around. If you wish to hear testimony of Gods provision then I am happy to tell you.

 

[Stoopot, Lord of Mice]

I would like that a lot, Psalm 91. Please do.

 

[psalms 91]

God has always supplied my need even when there didnt seem to be any way. The one I really remember that built my faith tremendously was I was living in a place andd getting ready to go to a 10 day campmeeting. I was told two days before I left that I would have to move within two weeks. I was fairly new in trusting God and I really agonized over whether to go or to stay and take care of it. The night before I was to leave I was sitting outside looking at the stars agonizing and I clearly heard God say to go. I couldnt believe it and I still fought it but I went knowing that I had no money to move and no prospect of any place to live. I left and enjoyed myself but always with this worry in the back of my mind. I prayed and prayed while there and when I came home the church had already moved me and I came home to a new place to live firnished and ready to go. That really showed me how God cares for us. I have many more instances of Gods provision so I know when it says that God will supply all my need that it is true. I am a living example of Gods grace and mercy and provisiooon for His. Be blessed and rest in the knoweledge that God does supply for us.