Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

[mmksparbud]

What is more relevant is what it does not say: "Michael."

This is I think the ultimate example of SDAs leaping to unfounded conclusions.

Who is the of captain of the host of the Lord? Who can be worshiped other than Jesus;--this says a man--is it? Would Joshua dare worship a man?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
What angel allows himself to be worshipped?
Please answer the questions.

I was referencing Nineteen Eighty Four. Are you familiar with George Orwell?

Yes. I know what you meant. Please answer the questions.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Who is the of captain of the host of the Lord? Who can be worshiped other than Jesus;--this says a man--is it? Would Joshua dare worship a man?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
What angel allows himself to be worshipped?
Please answer the questions.

This is of course irrelevant to the subject of the SDA doctrine since Joshua 5 does not refer to "Michael."

Yes. I know what you meant.

Apparently not, since you seemed to think I was actually saying that 2+2=5, which anyone familiar with Orwell would note was a reference to the brainwashing of Winston inside the Ministry of Love.

Please answer the questions.

Speaking of Oceania...

 

[mmksparbud]

I see you all still refuse to say who it is that is the captain of the Lord's host. Who it is that Joshua could fall down and worship, who it is that can declare the ground he stood on to be holy. You have no idea do you?? You can not even wrap your head around it, you do not want to see it. You will dance and hem and haw and do anything other then give an answer. But you will declare it simply can't be who it obviously is!!!
Is any angel our "prince", no matter his lofty position in heaven??
This is what any angel would say to being worshipped:
Rev_22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev_22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
What angel will allow himself to be worshipped?? None!!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then please tell me why Joshua worshipped the captain of the Lord of Hosts, and why he was standing on holy ground--there was only one being there. I don't care who shares my view, what does the bible say?

A traditional position is that this was, in fact, a theophany.

But a theophany of the pre-Incarnate Logos is not an argument that Jesus is Michael.

This is a case of what the Bible doesn't say. What the Bible doesn't say is that Jesus is Michael. It never says this, it does not even imply it. Michael is mentioned a total of three times in the Old Testament, all in the book of Daniel, and is described as the guardian angel of the nation of Israel. Michael is then mentioned twice in the New Testament, once in Jude which references the Assumption of Moses and another time in the Apocalypse which describes Michael in a war against the dragon.

There isn't a single other mention of Michael.
And there is nothing that suggests, says, or implies that Jesus and Michael are the same.

This isn't a belief which Christians have ever maintained. Best as I can tell (and I'm willing to be corrected) it's an idea that seems to have shown up among the occasional Protestant thinker in the 19th century. It didn't catch on, and seems to have only really have been taken particularly seriously by one particular denomination that has its origins in that same century.

As a rule I am not in the habit of believing 19th century theological innovations over two thousand year old universally accepted Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

A traditional position is that this was, in fact, a theophany.

But a theophany of the pre-Incarnate Logos is not an argument that Jesus is Michael.

This is a case of what the Bible doesn't say. What the Bible doesn't say is that Jesus is Michael. It never says this, it does not even imply it. Michael is mentioned a total of three times in the Old Testament, all in the book of Daniel, and is described as the guardian angel of the nation of Israel. Michael is then mentioned twice in the New Testament, once in Jude which references the Assumption of Moses and another time in the Apocalypse which describes Michael in a war against the dragon.

There isn't a single other mention of Michael.
And there is nothing that suggests, says, or implies that Jesus and Michael are the same.

This isn't a belief which Christians have ever maintained. Best as I can tell (and I'm willing to be corrected) it's an idea that seems to have shown up among the occasional Protestant thinker in the 19th century. It didn't catch on, and seems to have only really have been taken particularly seriously by one particular denomination that has its origins in that same century.

As a rule I am not in the habit of believing 19th century theological innovations over two thousand year old universally accepted Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

the·oph·a·ny
[THēˈäfənē]


NOUN

1. 
   a visible manifestation to humankind of God or a god

LOL!!! OK---so this "theophany" calls himself the captain of the host of the Lord and accepts worship and declares the ground holy? Jesus is calling himself a captain of angels???
So Jesus is the captain of the host of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

you claim an angel, Michael, as your prince??
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

 

[BobRyan]

No, you go by an opinion as to what the Bible said which was shared by precisely no one in the early Church.

Not true. We consider the Bible writers a key part of the early church - just when other folks wish to ignore them.

Some folks look at Paul's statement in Acts 20:29 "29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. " and say to themselves "oh good - I will only take information from -- AFTER Paul's departure -- ignoring Paul I will just listen to the savage wolves that come in after the first century.

Not everyone will say that of course - so not accusing anyone specifically - but in practice many will choose that course

 

[BobRyan]

A traditional position is that this was, in fact, a theophany.

But a theophany of the pre-Incarnate Logos

Funny how that works isn't it.

And of course - God and 2 angels described as "3 men" in Genesis 18 does not mean that God is a man or that angels are men.

So then ... 'the obvious' - that they present themselves in that form - but are not in fact incarnate in that form or merely that form.

BTW the whole "God the Son is also called Michael" topic is not even one of our doctrinal statements of belief. But since you enjoy the subject - I am happy to participate in it.

----------------- "our prince" - according to the Bible is God the Son - Jesus Christ - also called Michael even if someone does not like this Bible detail

Isaiah 9 -- the ONLY prince from heaven - given to us in all of scripture

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Dan 10
21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

---- God the Son - alone --- is commander of all the angels in heaven

And of course God the Son (and not some angel) is the head of all Angels

Hebrews 1 -
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 12
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and His angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.


"unto us is given... Prince of peace" Isiah 9
"Michael your prince" Daniel 10

But just because Genesis 18 calls God and 2 angels "three men" -- you should not think that God and the angels are "just men" -- that would be a mistake.

You are free to choose whatever you wish - of course. And this is not a doctrinal statement in the SDA 28 statements - statements of faith. Just an interesting Bible detail.

This is of course irrelevant to the subject of the SDA doctrine

In that God the Son in the form of Michael is not a doctrinal statement of ours -- on in that sense is your statement remotely true.

Reminder - it is not a doctrinal statement of the SDA denomination --
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

It is merely an interesting Bible detail -- like the fact that it did not rain on earth before the flood. Also not a doctrinal statement - but an interesting Bible detail.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LoveofTruth]

Times too short for playing games... what's you point? You want to do proper Bible study to understand the Word of God better than we did yesterday?

There is a very strong reason i ask you is Jesus Christ in you? I have good reason. And you may not want to answer it knowing that you will expose yourself or trap yourself by your answer.

But try to answer

Yes or no

Is JESUS Christ in you?

 

[LoveofTruth]

You just shot your own argument in the foot. did you intend to do that?

I dint shoot my own argument i was exposing the words of Ellen White as not biblical.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Funny how that works isn't it.

And of course - God and 2 angels described as "3 men" in Genesis 18 does not mean that God is a man or that angels are men.

So then ... 'the obvious' - that they present themselves in that form - but are not in fact incarnate in that form or merely that form.



----------------- "our prince" - according to the Bible is God the Son - Jesus Christ - also called Michael even if someone does not like this Bible detail

Isaiah 9 -- the ONLY prince from heaven - given to us in all of scripture

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Dan 10
21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

---- God the Son - alone --- is commander of all the angels in heaven

And of course God the Son (and not some angel) is the head of all Angels

Hebrews 1 -
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 12
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and His angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.


"unto us is given... Prince of peace" Isiah 9
"Michael your prince" Daniel 10

But just because Genesis 18 calls God and 2 angels "three men" -- you should not think that God and the angels are "just men" -- that would be a mistake.

You are free to choose whatever you wish - of course. And this is not a doctrinal statement in the SDA 28 statements - statements of faith. Just an interesting Bible detail.



In that God the Son in the form of Michael is not a doctrinal statement of ours -- on in that sense is your statement remotely true.

Reminder - it is not a doctrinal statement of the SDA denomination --
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

It is merely an interesting Bible detail -- like the fact that it did not rain on earth before the flood. Also not a doctrinal statement - but an interesting Bible detail.

in Christ,

Bob

Is JESUS Christ in you?

yes or no

this is the starting point

some avoid answering for whatever reasons they fear to do so. But the answer will be clear if you answer.

 

[BobRyan]

Is Jesus Christ in you?

yes or no?

Indeed - yes - "Christ in me - the hope of glory" - for "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Thanks for asking

There is a very strong reason i ask you is Jesus Christ in you? I have good reason. And you may not want to answer it knowing that you will expose yourself or trap yourself by your answer.

But try to answer

Yes or no

Is JESUS Christ in you?

As I said before -

Indeed - yes - "Christ in me - the hope of glory" - for "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Thanks for asking

Is JESUS Christ in you?

yes or no

this is the starting point

some avoid answering for whatever reasons they fear to do so. But the answer will be clear if you answer.

As I said before -

Indeed - yes - "Christ in me - the hope of glory" - for "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Thanks for asking

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all who may read,

The reason I ask some here the question

Is Jesus Christ in you? is because some don't believe Jesus Christ is God the Son from eternity. They say he is Michael, but an angel or "archangel" (which simply defines a rank or headship of angels) cannot be in every believer at one time. Only God can. So i ask is Jesus Christ in you? if they say no, then I show them this verse that exposes them as not in the faith

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

so a reprobate is someone who is unapproved, worthless, a castaway, rejected as the greek word for "reprobate" means

 

[LoveofTruth]

As I said before -

Indeed - yes - "Christ in me - the hope of glory" - for "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Thanks for asking



As I said before -

Indeed - yes - "Christ in me - the hope of glory" - for "20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Thanks for asking

I asked is JESUS Christ in you, very specific wording

if you say yes, then Jesus Christ is God in all believers, for God works in us to will and to do. This would show that Jesus Christ is not an angel or an arch angel. For to which of the angels said he at any time thou art my Son.And how can an angel be in all believers?

Another question.

Is your Jesus a created being or is he part of the Triunity of the God head, is he God the Son from eternity with no beginning or end.?

 

[mmksparbud]

To all who may read,

The reason I ask some here the question

Is Jesus Christ in you? is because some don't believe jesus Christ is God the Son from eternity. They say he is Michael, but an angel cannot be in every believer at one time. Only God can. So i ask is Jesus Christ in you? if they say no, then I show them this verse that exposes them as not in the faith

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

so a reprobate is someone who is unapproved, worthless, a castaway, rejected as the greek word for "reprobate" means

Well, maybe you can answer the questions in post #445.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all,

When we ask others do they believe in Jesus Christ. We must always define who jesus is. many will say they believe in Jesus, The Muslums say they believe in Jesus and many other groups say so as well. But when you examine their Jesus he is not the biblical Jesus. For any to say or even imply or twist scripture to make jesus an archangel, Michael. Is another jesus according to scripture.

I have met many people who say they believe in jesus but when asking them who jesus is i have go answers like

He is a woman in China right now he came back recently , or he is a prophet but not the Son of God , or he is a good man, but not God. etc etc

 

[LoveofTruth]

When I ask the JW's is Jesus Christ in you. They say NO, they may say Christ is in them. But not JESUS Christ in them. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is the almighty God so Jesus Christ to them cannot be in all people. They also believe he is an angels as I understand, Michael they say. They believe he is a created being. But he is the Son of God eternally and he had not beginning or end he created all things. If he created all things then it goes to say that he did not create himself. And he who created all things is God. We read to the Son creating all things in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1 etc

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well, maybe you can answer the questions in post #445.

what was the question again, I looked for it but it seemed to be gone

 

[mmksparbud]

You have not read all the posts on here or you would have gotten your answer long ago---It has been said over and over

Jesus Christ is from everlasting to everlasting, He always was and always will be, He is the one and only Son of God, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He is Jehovah. He is the great I AM, He is the Captain of the hosts of the Lord, Michael, He is the Alpha and the Omega, God, Savior, Brother, The Lamb, our High Priest, the Burning Bush, He who sits on the right hand of God, the writer of the 10 commandments, the Creator of everything that has ever been made, and much, much more!!!

 

[LoveofTruth]

the·oph·a·ny
[THēˈäfənē]


NOUN

1. 
   a visible manifestation to humankind of God or a god

LOL!!! OK---so this "theophany" calls himself the captain of the host of the Lord and accepts worship and declares the ground holy? Jesus is calling himself a captain of angels???
So Jesus is the captain of the host of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

you claim an angel, Michael, as your prince??
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

people often will fall down before angels or any spiritual being or things that seem from God. This does not say the angel there accepted worship. We see even John trying to do this in revelation and the angel forbid him. Moses fell to his face also at the burning bush we see other examples of this.

Here is an interesting thought

"
18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?"

We see that Joseph was in the place of God, not God. Similar to angels and men when they speak in the first person for God. Prophets speak in the first person as if they are God but they are not.



But i ask is jesus Christ in you? and is Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh, the eternal Son of God sent from the father ? Is Jesus Christ part of the Godhead, or trinity?

 

[mmksparbud]

what was the question again, I looked for it but it seemed to be gone

the·oph·a·ny
[THēˈäfənē]


NOUN

1. 
   a visible manifestation to humankind of God or a god

LOL!!! OK---so this "theophany" calls himself the captain of the host of the Lord and accepts worship and declares the ground holy? Jesus is calling himself a captain of angels???
So Jesus is the captain of the host of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

you claim an angel, Michael, as your prince??
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

It was in response to this:

A traditional position is that this was, in fact, a theophany.

But a theophany of the pre-Incarnate Logos is not an argument that Jesus is Michael.

This is a case of what the Bible doesn't say. What the Bible doesn't say is that Jesus is Michael. It never says this, it does not even imply it. Michael is mentioned a total of three times in the Old Testament, all in the book of Daniel, and is described as the guardian angel of the nation of Israel. Michael is then mentioned twice in the New Testament, once in Jude which references the Assumption of Moses and another time in the Apocalypse which describes Michael in a war against the dragon.

There isn't a single other mention of Michael.
And there is nothing that suggests, says, or implies that Jesus and Michael are the same.

This isn't a belief which Christians have ever maintained. Best as I can tell (and I'm willing to be corrected) it's an idea that seems to have shown up among the occasional Protestant thinker in the 19th century. It didn't catch on, and seems to have only really have been taken particularly seriously by one particular denomination that has its origins in that same century.

As a rule I am not in the habit of believing 19th century theological innovations over two thousand year old universally accepted Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran