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Why do people even want to put evolution in the equation?

Contenders Edge

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Tiktaalik is the best example determination, they went there looking for it, as that's where it would be in the fossil record, and surprise surprise they found it. Again, we find feathered dinosaurs exactly where in the phylogenic tree we expect and at the right time we expect.

And it is by definition transitional form, and you know paleontologists can tell the difference from a extinct bird and dinosaur not like they haven't spent their entire lives researching this stuff.

As for fossils.

Sinosauropteryxfossil.jpg


Eosinopteryx.jpg


Can you name some examples of fossils they found that were not expecting? Just how far off were they?


The so-called feather impressions have been interpreted as being nothing more than collagen fiber impressions and therefore the fossils with which they are associated with are not considered to be transitional. Apparently not every paleontologist who was supposed to have done a life-time of research can tell the difference between a dinosaur and a bird.

As for this Tiktaalik, how can it be considered a transitional form between aquatic and terrestrial life forms when fossilized tracks belonging to fully terrestrial creatures have been given assigned dates millions of years older
BBC News - Fossil tracks record 'oldest land-walkers'
Fossil footprints give land vertebrates a much longer history -- ScienceDaily

than that of Tiktaalik which is regarded by evolutionists to be the earliest known transitional form between fish and amphibians?
Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland | Nature

If these tracks are older than the so-called oldest aquatic/terrestrial transitional forms discovered, then how is that not in defiance of the so-called phylogenetic tree? How does a discovery like that not discredit the so-called geologic column so often found in our science textbooks?
 
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Job 33:6

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The so-called feather impressions have been interpreted as being nothing more than collagen fiber impressions and therefore the fossils with which they are associated with are not considered to be transitional. Apparently not every paleontologist who was supposed to have done a life-time of research can tell the difference between a dinosaur and a bird.

As for this Tiktaalik, how can it be considered a transitional form between aquatic and terrestrial life forms when fossilized tracks belonging to fully terrestrial creatures have been given assigned dates millions of years older
BBC News - Fossil tracks record 'oldest land-walkers'
Fossil footprints give land vertebrates a much longer history -- ScienceDaily

than that of Tiktaalik which is regarded by evolutionists to be the earliest known transitional form between fish and amphibians?

Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland | Nature

If these tracks are older than the so-called oldest aquatic/terrestrial transitional forms discovered, then how is that not in defiance of the so-called phylogenetic tree? How does a discovery like that not discredit the so-called geologic column so often found in our science textbooks?

The one response that I've heard some young earth creationists is regarding the zachelmie trackways of the early Devonian.

Some young earthers say, well, if tetrapods lived before Tiktaalik, which is a fish to tetrapod transition, it must therefore be true that the entire fossil succession is disorganized and completely made-up.

That's basically what the response is. But this response fails for the following reasons:

Earth history and the geologic succession spans 4.5+ billion years. Or 4,500 million years. Of the geologic record, the fossil record spans 3,500 million years, and macro species of animals span roughly 600 million years.

The zachelmie trackways are dated to roughly 390 million years old.

Non-marine palaeoenvironment associated to the earliest tetrapod tracks | Scientific Reports.

They are contested and others have suggested that they are fish feeding traces. Given that there is no associated bone material, it is hard to know for sure.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...itical_Review_of_Devonian_Tetrapod_Footprints

While the fish to tetrapod transition is believed to have spanned from dates of roughly 385-359.

A Devonian tetrapod-like fish and the evolution of the tetrapod body plan | Nature

With Tiktaalik specimen found in the fram formation, dating between 383-359, on the lower end of the frasnian, estimated around 385-375 million years old.

So with all of the above said, if the rock record were a 4,500 page book, with macro sized animals spanning the last 600 pages, what the YEC argument amounts to, is that, in their opinion, because contested tracks of a tetrapod appear on page 395 (give or take 5 pages) and because Tiktaalik (a tetrapodomorph) is observed between pages 385-375, give or take 5 pages, that somehow, all 600 pages of post Cambrian animals or even all 3,500 pages of the fossil record at large, somehow have no logical sequence because the two pages are in reverse order.

If the geologic record were a book: sure, they could find a t rex (page 70 or 70 million years ago) in the ordovician chapter (page 400 or 400 mya), or they could find any species of bird (pages 150-0) anywhere in the paleozoic (pages 550-250) and it would easily disprove evolution. But instead, they make an effort to say that a disputed fossil (that may just be fish traces, with no bone material) of page 390 (give or take 5 pages of potential dating error) ought to be on page 385 (give or take 5 pages), and that because it's not, the entire animal and fossil succession is meaningless.

As if someone had a 3500 page book of the fossil record and because page 390 and 385 were hypothesized to be out of order (yet without clearly being the case), that somehow the entire book loses its order?

In music terms, it would be like arguing that because b and b flat sound like they may be reversed, that somehow an entire chord has no meaningful order of sound. But in reality paleontologists are simply fine tuning our strings. And such an an argument ignores 99% of the rest of the fossil succession.

As if YECs could not fathom the possibility that perhaps these tetrapods (Tiktaalik and some tetrapodomorps of the early to mid Devonian) lived side by side or that perhaps even genus such as Tiktaalik-like tetrapodomorps might have made such trackways as the zachelmie trackways (assuming they aren't feeding traces of fish). As if evolution hadn't already established that fish had been around since the cambrian and reptiles appeared in the carboniferous, and so it would still be logical to find any tetrapod in the Devonian. YECs additionally don't understand that transitional fossils are not meant to be understood as direct ancestors, but rather related family members that share features of ancestors of a particular time (just as my uncle shares features with my father and both lived in a similar generation of time, and both teach me about my family tree, even though my uncle may not be my direct ancestor). My uncle would still be a "transitional" that depicts physical features of my family tree, even if my uncle isn't my direct ancestor and even if my uncle didn't live at exactly the same time as my father. Tiktaalik does the same even if it isn't a direct ancestor and thus is classified as a transitional fossil.

The YEC response to the summation of phylogenetic trees is really like sticking a bear with a twig. They may think they're doing something, but anyone whos familiar with the vast collection of information that makes these phylogenetic trees up, knows that these arguments are trivial at best. Nothing but a sleight of hand by YECs to make it appear as if they actually have some ground to stand on.


All the while, young earth Creationists still offer no meaningful explanation for how the localities of these fossils are predicted via the theory of evolution. Nor do YECs offer an explanation for why these phylogenetic trees align across independent fields of study.

 
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loveofourlord

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The so-called feather impressions have been interpreted as being nothing more than collagen fiber impressions and therefore the fossils with which they are associated with are not considered to be transitional. Apparently not every paleontologist who was supposed to have done a life-time of research can tell the difference between a dinosaur and a bird.

As for this Tiktaalik, how can it be considered a transitional form between aquatic and terrestrial life forms when fossilized tracks belonging to fully terrestrial creatures have been given assigned dates millions of years older
BBC News - Fossil tracks record 'oldest land-walkers'
Fossil footprints give land vertebrates a much longer history -- ScienceDaily

than that of Tiktaalik which is regarded by evolutionists to be the earliest known transitional form between fish and amphibians?
Tetrapod trackways from the early Middle Devonian period of Poland | Nature

If these tracks are older than the so-called oldest aquatic/terrestrial transitional forms discovered, then how is that not in defiance of the so-called phylogenetic tree? How does a discovery like that not discredit the so-called geologic column so often found in our science textbooks?

You do know the difference between form and species right? Might want to keep up with this, this is the stupid, "If we evolved from monkeys while are there still monkeys." argument. Even assuming those are legit, it doesn't require tiktaalik to be the first, just the oldest that we've found at this point.

As for collagen fibers, funny how they are all in the same direction like feathers would be, rather then haphazard like collagen tends to be. not sure why it would all stand straight up like that. Plus there is the dinosaur tail with feathers that we found. Creationists really need to learn the difference between form and species and such and stop with these pratts. If it was stupid with monkey it's stupid here.
 
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Job 33:6

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You do know the difference between form and species right? Might want to keep up with this, this is the stupid, "If we evolved from monkeys while are there still monkeys." argument. Even assuming those are legit, it doesn't require tiktaalik to be the first, just the oldest that we've found at this point.

As for collagen fibers, funny how they are all in the same direction like feathers would be, rather then haphazard like collagen tends to be. not sure why it would all stand straight up like that. Plus there is the dinosaur tail with feathers that we found. Creationists really need to learn the difference between form and species and such and stop with these pratts. If it was stupid with monkey it's stupid here.

Oh yea, that was in the news not too long ago.

First Dinosaur Tail Found Preserved in Amber

Screenshot_20210412-082116~2.png
 
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stevevw

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Why does this impossible process, with impossible odds, seem so rational to this new breed of Christians? It's growing, and it might be blasphemy. Aren't they calling God a liar?
I think the fundelmental issue here is putting so much emphasis on evolution or creation as something that determines salvation or not. The important point is that God (however he did it) created the earth, the universe and life. That this didn't happen from nothing and Gods finger prints are all over it in some way, shape or form spiritually and physically.
 
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BoomsTheory

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I find the evidence for evolution to be convincing. I find the insistent comparison between evolution and the first couple Genesis chapters to be a category mistake.



How can you be so sure about the reliability and authenticity of this so called data and research? You know you're really giving the scientific and astrophysics community alot of unwarranted trust. They lie about global warming. Covid. Vaccine research, NASA lies about space and the Moon. How do you know they aren't just fabricating the data and statistics? They make the formulas, and offer the interpretation of the research. The same way they make everyone believe earth is billions of years.

One is a religious document making claims about God, the world, and humanity (and the relation between the three). The main thrust of these claims is outside the purview of scientific investigation, i.e. metaphysics. The other is a theory based on data, i.e. physical phenomena. It's a category mistake and a sign of intellectual laziness and arrogance to not acknowledge and allow for the differences between the two.
 
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BoomsTheory

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How does believing in evolution call God a liar?
God created man in his image and breathed into us the breath of life. All in 6 days. He spoke it into being . And it is complete. Evolution says we're expanding through a never ending universe at 515000 mph on a rotating ball and there's trillions of other galaxies. God created us. In 6 days not 4.5billion years
 
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The Barbarian

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God created man in his image and breathed into us the breath of life.

All Christians acknowledge that. The problem is, most creationists don't approve of the way He did it.

All in 6 days.

That's man's revision of scripture. Scripture itself tells us that they "yom" of creation are not literal 24 hour days.

He spoke it into being.

The initial creation, yes. And then created things brought forth other things as He intended. If you believe His word in Genesis.

And it is complete.

Not yet. He'll let us know when it's done.

Evolution says we're expanding through a never ending universe at 515000 mph on a rotating ball and there's trillions of other galaxies.

No. Evolutionary theory says no such things. You've confused biology with astrophysics. And even then, you got it wrong.

God created us.

Yep. Why not just Him do it His way?

In 6 days not 4.5billion years

Just let God decide. And then it won't bother you any more.
 
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BoomsTheory

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All Christians acknowledge that. The problem is, most creationists don't approve of the way He did it.

Well what we approve or disapprove of is irrelevant. It's not our opinions and feelings that matter. It's what God says. How can we disapprove of what God does? We are becoming too much of this world and we are too considerate and sensitive to pleasing the world than obeying the law of our Heavenly Father. We can't make scripture fit our wants.
 
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BoomsTheory

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Why are you so concerned about making the lie of evolution fit into the bible? It's obviously not scripturally true. I mean I get your open-mindedness, but you don't seem to recognize the "physics" and explaination of the heliocentric theory that we have to believe in order to support the big bang. Evolution, big bang, singularity event, etc are 100% false. No amount of math and science and quantum physics will ever explain it. Space is fake. Like there are no other galaxies. NASA is lies. I do know what I'm talking about. I research heavily.
 
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The Barbarian

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How can you be so sure about the reliability and authenticity of this so called data and research?

Documentation and reproducibility. If a paper reports findings that no other scientist can replicate, the person who wrote that paper is in trouble. Remember cold fusion? Remember "vaccinations cause autism?" Didn't work out so well for those guys.

You know you're really giving the scientific and astrophysics community alot of unwarranted trust.

There's no trust involved. Reproducible results are the gold standard. But there is increasing concern that the explosion of knowledge has led to numerous cases of irreproducible results. There's a lot of effort right now, to see that the system remains reliable. Some new standards being implemented by journals address those issues.

10 Rules for Creating Reproducible Results in Data Science

They lie about global warming.

That's a testable claim. As early as the 1970s, when a brief cooling led many news magazines to predict a new ice age, most climatologists even then were predicting warming. Thirty years out, James Hansen accurately predicted the level of warming. So it was politicians and lobbyists who are lying to you. Sorry.

Covid. Vaccine research, NASA lies about space and the Moon. How do you know they aren't just fabricating the data and statistics?

Reputable journals won't publish without review. And even one someone slips a shoddy of dishonest paper through, they eventually get caught. The anti-vaxxer fake that made it to Lancet was caught and retracted by the journal, for example.

They make the formulas, and offer the interpretation of the research.

Not the formulas. That's science, not research. But they do offer interpretations. Not long ago, some researchers noticed a genetic bottleneck in late populations of wolly mammoths as their numbers declined. The researchers suggested that this was the cause of the extinction. However, if populations drop sufficiently, they always have a loss in genetic diversity. The researchers interpreted a cause when it appears to have been an effect of ongoing extinction. This was promptly pointed out by a number of others in the field, and while the initial interpretation was likely wrong, it did lead to an interest in the mechanism of reduced diversity as an additional factor in extinction.

The same way they make everyone believe earth is billions of years.

There is all that evidence from physics, astronomy, geology, etc. Hardly any of it related to evolution.

One is a religious document making claims about God, the world, and humanity (and the relation between the three).

Lots of those. Koran, Taode Jing, etc. None of them offer any scientific data of the sort you were asking for. They are about God and man and our relationship. No one with any sense would use them as a guide to the way the physical universe works.

The main thrust of these claims is outside the purview of scientific investigation, i.e. metaphysics.

And hence, not a very useful guide to the mechanics of the world. Science depends on data and observation. But science is not very useful as a guide to God, in spite of the truth St. Paul gives us:

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

And considering St. Paul's observation, I have to believe that God made the universe orderly and predictable for a reason. And that just might be the truth that you're looking for.
 
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d taylor

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Why are you so concerned about making the lie of evolution fit into the bible? It's obviously not scripturally true. I mean I get your open-mindedness, but you don't seem to recognize the "physics" and explaination of the heliocentric theory that we have to believe in order to support the big bang. Evolution, big bang, singularity event, etc are 100% false. No amount of math and science and quantum physics will ever explain it. Space is fake. Like there are no other galaxies. NASA is lies. I do know what I'm talking about. I research heavily.

Sounds like a fellow flat earther, if so come over to the conspiracy section.
 
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The Barbarian

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Well what we approve or disapprove of is irrelevant.

To God it is. You could be a doctrinaire YE creationist, and still be Christian and saved.

It's what God says.

Look in Matthew 25:31-46 for what He says is necessary to spend eternity with Him. It's not that difficult. And we shouldn't put additional conditions on it. Trust Him.

How can we disapprove of what God does?

In the case of YE creationists, it's just a faulty interpretation of scripture.

We are becoming too much of this world

Instead of relying on the world's interpretation, just go to Matthew 25, and He's clearly laid it out for you. That's what matters. The rest is just something for theologians to mutter about. And theology won't save you. A heart turned toward God and your fellow man will save you.

Just love him and trust Him, and try to follow Him. That's all you need:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

Do this and you can't fail. So simple, and yet so difficult for fallible humans.
 
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The Barbarian

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Why are you so concerned about making the lie of evolution fit into the bible?

It's directly observed daily. So there's no point in denying the fact. But why would you want to have things like evolution, protons, DNA, etc. in the Bible? That's not what the Bible is for.

I'm guessing that you don't actually know what "evolution" means in biology. What do you think it means?

I mean I get your open-mindedness, but you don't seem to recognize the "physics" and explaination of the heliocentric theory that we have to believe in order to support the big bang.

You've confused evolution with astrophysics. No wonder it's difficult for you. Evolution is very straightforward; we know precisely why it works.

No amount of math and science and quantum physics will ever explain it.

The field of population genetics does that very well. Would you like to see a simple demonstration?

Space is fake.

It's what keeps everything from being in the same place. Kind of necessary.

Like there are no other galaxies.

What's this, then?
dims


NASA is lies.

I notice that they seem to do a pretty good job of navigating the solar system, and finding things out thereby.

I do know what I'm talking about. I research heavily.

Well, show us some of that data.
 
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BoomsTheory

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Okay, well I agree that there I guess is somewhat a system of oversight and peer review. Personally don't have enough confidence Faith or trust in these organizations to have enough confidence that they are not corrupt lying or blatantly deceiving us. NASA gets like 20 million a day out of our budget so that's plenty enough money to fake what they have to fake and pay off who they have to pay off to keep everyone quiet. And just because a system is in place by no means does that mean that it cannot be manipulated or bypassed. I mean we have a system in place to ensure secure and fair elections but we just had an election stolen right in front of our faces and everyone knows it and even the supreme Court is not upholding the Constitution or the law or what is right in this situation so what makes you think that NASA or a company that has the prerogative to lie about creation and evolution to be honest to the people? Like you got to kind of understand that Satan is deceiving the whole world and these lies go so deep that it sounds like a conspiratorial rabbit hole but honestly if they have the motivation to lie about evolution in the first place in the Big bang theory what makes you think that they're going to be truthful about the data and information that they do have?
 
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BoomsTheory

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Well I am a young Earth creationist. I'm actually a flat hollow earth believer. and I wouldn't say I have the most Orthodox doctrinal opinions on the Bible I believe that it is literal that it has figurative and metaphorical meanings and that there are some deep deep meanings and there's some downright mysteries. The gospel and the road to salvation is what lay the foundations for Christians I agree. But with so many evolutionist and atheist advocating for evolution and singularity event and the heliocentric model. I don't see how it has been official for Christians to try to confirm or make sense of evolution just to seem mainstream normal or in the same train of thought as evolutionist because they are dead wrong and trying to work with them to help make logic of their theory is only pulling you farther away from the truth while showing them that we are not even firming our own beliefs and it's sad that so many Christians are being pulled toward the evolution Gap theory lie, but we're never adamant about explaining our beliefs and explaining creation without evolution aspect. Evolution is a lie from the devil to make us think that we're insignificant flying through infinite space and we happened by chance we came from a rock essentially. Just understand these scientists that claim they have proof and data of the size of the universe and black holes and string theory have just as much proof as you would if they ask you to produce proof of God's existence. You're giving them the benefit of the doubt and trusting them when they are denying the Bible and trying to disprove creationism.
 
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FaithT

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Well I am a young Earth creationist. I'm actually a flat hollow earth believer. and I wouldn't say I have the most Orthodox doctrinal opinions on the Bible I believe that it is literal that it has figurative and metaphorical meanings and that there are some deep deep meanings and there's some downright mysteries. The gospel and the road to salvation is what lay the foundations for Christians I agree. But with so many evolutionist and atheist advocating for evolution and singularity event and the heliocentric model. I don't see how it has been official for Christians to try to confirm or make sense of evolution just to seem mainstream normal or in the same train of thought as evolutionist because they are dead wrong and trying to work with them to help make logic of their theory is only pulling you farther away from the truth while showing them that we are not even firming our own beliefs and it's sad that so many Christians are being pulled toward the evolution Gap theory lie, but we're never adamant about explaining our beliefs and explaining creation without evolution aspect. Evolution is a lie from the devil to make us think that we're insignificant flying through infinite space and we happened by chance we came from a rock essentially. Just understand these scientists that claim they have proof and data of the size of the universe and black holes and string theory have just as much proof as you would if they ask you to produce proof of God's existence. You're giving them the benefit of the doubt and trusting them when they are denying the Bible and trying to disprove creationism.
What’s a flat hollow earth believer?
 
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BoomsTheory

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What’s a flat hollow earth believer?
I believe in a stationary, disc shaped earth. With a literal underworld beneath us.
 

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