Why do people blame calvinists ?

[BNR32FAN]

With this terminology in mind, is Irenaneous saying what you say he is saying, that man has the capacity, but not the power?
If so, then I think that puts him in agreement with Calvin, right? . . .as well as the NT.

Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command

Iranaeus specifically said that with that experience man may with make the choice of better things and that he may never neglect God’s command. Again this enablement has come from God not from man.

 

[Clare73]

Are you saying that people must be born again and receive the Holy Spirit before they can come to Christ? I think
you have that backwards.

It seems that way, but
"Unless one is born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
How do you agree with and come to what you can't even see?

Without the Holy Spirit in the new birth, "man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he does not understand them, they are foolishness to him," (2 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of foolishness. . .not gonna' happen!

God must work in man first for him to have understanding, and to be made ready and willing, then he willingly and freely comes.

 

[Clare73]

Here’s a direct quote, again.
Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death.
Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command
If man has been given the ability from God then it means that ability came from God and not by man’s own power.

Irenaeus says man has been give the "knowledge," he did not say man has been given ability (by grace) to obey, but that man has the ability to obey (by nature), right?

That is contrary to the NT regarding unregenerate (no God-life in one's spirit) man's ability.
"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's will, nor can it do so (no ability).
Those controlled by the sinful mind (unregenerate nature) cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8)

 

[Clare73]

Who said anything about man accepting Christ apart from God’s grace? I specifically showed you that
Iranaeus said that God has given man the knowledge and capability to do both good and bad.

God has not given unregenerate mankind the knowledge and capability to see, understand and choose him (2 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8, John 6:65).

 

[Clare73]

Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command

Iranaeus specifically said that with that experience man may with make the choice of better things and that he may never neglect God’s command. Again this enablement has come from God not from man.

God has not given such to unregeneralte mankind.
See my post #423, above.

Irenaeus is not in agreement with NT teaching.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It seems that way, but
"Unless one is born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
How do you agree with and come to what you can't even see?

Without the Holy Spirit in the new birth, "man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he does not understand them, they are foolishness to him," (2 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of foolishness. . .not gonna' happen!

God must work in man first for him to have understanding, and to be made ready and willing, then he willingly and freely comes.

Ok, according to the scriptures did Cornelius and his household believe before or after they received the Holy Spirit? In Acts 19 Paul had to baptize 12 men who believed in Christ because they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The twelve apostles themselves believed in Christ long before they received the Holy Spirit. Jesus sent 70 disciples out to preach before they received the Holy Spirit. Jesus preached to thousands who believed who had not received the Holy Spirit. When Peter preached at Pentecost he said to the people when asked what should we do

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These are numerous occasions where people repented and believed before being born again and received the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God has not given unregenerate mankind the knowledge and capability to see, understand and choose him (2 Corinthians 2:14;
Romans 8:7-8, John 6:65).

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

God has not given such to unregeneralte mankind.
See my post #423, above.

Irenaeus is not in agreement with NT teaching.

Iranaeus was a disciple of John. He heard the apostles preach and was even able to talk with them and ask them questions so I think he has more credibility than a man born more than 1500 years later who’s doctrines have been rejected by every single church established by the apostles.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, according to the scriptures did Cornelius and his household believe before or after they received the Holy Spirit?

They received the Holy Spirit and came to faith while they were hearing the gospel. . .saving faith comes through hearing the gospel.

In Acts 19 Paul had to baptize 12 men who believed in Christ because they had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

They were disciples of John the Baptist, who preached repentance and was killed before there was a gospel of Jesus Christ to preach.
When presented with the gospel of Jesus Christ, they received the Holy Spirit and believed the gospel, to saving faith.

The twelve apostles themselves believed in Christ long before they received the Holy Spirit.

Saving faith is not only faith in Jesus, but also in his atoning work. When they received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, there was no atoning for them to believe in and trust on, until after the resurrection.

Pentecost 40 days after the resurrection was their reception of special empowerment to accompany their preaching of the gospel.

Origins are not the pattern for the ordinary course.
The origin of Adam is not the pattern for the ordinary future course of human beings.
Rebirth by the Holy Spirit at the origin of the church was accompanied with outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit, which is not the pattern for the ordinary future course of rebirths by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus sent 70 disciples out to preach before they received the Holy Spirit.

And they did not preach the gospel of atonement through which saving faith comes by the Holy Spirit for there was no atonement to preach nor for them to believe.

Jesus preached to thousands who believed who had not received the Holy Spirit.

And he didn't preach the gospel of forgiveness through faith in his atonement, through which saving faith comes by the Holy Spirit.

When Peter preached at Pentecost he said to the people when asked what should we do

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

They believed by the Holy Spirit when they heard the gospel, which belief of rebirth was usually accompanied by special manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the origin of the church.

These are numerous occasions where people repented and believed before being born again and received the Holy Spirit.

Not exactly. . .no outward manifestations of the Holy Spirit does not necessarily mean they had not been born again of the Holy Spirit.

Origins are not the pattern for the ordinary course.

Jesus said the course would be rebirth by the Holy Spirit before one could even see, much less receive, the kingdom of God.

 

[Clare73]

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

But only those whom the Father has enabled will come (John 6:65).

 

[Clare73]

Iranaeus was a disciple of John. He heard the apostles preach and was even able to talk with them and ask them questions so I think he has more credibility than a man born more than 1500 years later who’s doctrines have been rejected by every single church established by the apostles.

He doesn't seem to be too familiar with the writings of Paul received from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5).

 

[BNR32FAN]

They received the Holy Spirit and came to faith while they were hearing the gospel. . .saving faith comes through hearing the gospel.

“Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:1-2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Cornelius believed in God before he received the Holy Spirit.

“For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:6-8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

According to the scriptures Cornelius set his mind on the Spirit before he had received the Holy Spirit.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: “ I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Not welcome to Him after receiving the Holy Spirit, welcome to Him before receiving the Holy Spirit.

They were disciples of John the Baptist, who preached repentance and was killed before there was a gospel of Jesus Christ to preach.
When presented with the gospel of Jesus Christ, they received the Holy Spirit and believed the gospel, to saving faith.

That’s not stated in the scriptures either. The scriptures don’t say that Paul preached the gospel to them. It does say that they believed in Christ before receiving the Holy Spirit.

Saving faith is not only faith in Jesus, but also in his atoning work. There was no atoning for them to believe in and trust on until after the resurrection when they received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

Well that’s most unfortunate for Stephen then since he died before he was able to believe in Christ’s atonement.

“And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I’m not sure why you quoted this verse. Did you perhaps quote the wrong passage here?

They believed by the Holy Spirit when they heard the gospel, which was accompanied by special manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the origin of the church.

They were already of the Spirit before receiving the Holy Spirit. Jesus said they do not belong to this world. The reason is because they were already born again by His words and by His power.

 

[9Rock9]

Most Arminians reconcile human free will with God's sovereignty and foreknowledge by holding three points: Human free will is limited by original sin, though God's prevenient grace restores to humanity the ability to accept God's call of salvation.
Works: Classical Arminianism
Founders: Jacobus Arminius

So it's all a big smokescreen that ends with being Pelagianism dressed in twisted bible cliches.

Sure, I'm a Calvinist and disagree with the Arminian interpretation, but this seems way off base.

 

[StillGods]

But only those whom the Father has enabled will come (John 6:65).

maybe God has already enabled us all, but we then have the choice as to whether we will make use of that enabling. without being enabled we couldnt come, but we have all been enabled by God so if we choose to we can come, if we choose not to we dont use that enabling.
i think when we are saved we know because we have made a choice to do so.
many in Calvinism seem to not have assurance of salvation, they seem to think they have no say in whether they come or not, so how can they really know if they are saved or not. i think this is a very sad outcome of Calvinism in its followers. in my opinion it leads to works because that is the only way they can know they are saved if they continue to do good things... but if they stop then they must not be saved. to me outwardly looking in it seems an insecure basis to live on. i acknowlege i do not know everything about Calvinism though.

i think we all have the ability to say no to God, and also the ability to say yes to God because God has enabled us that way. so we can come because God enabled us to do so, we all are enabled - but some dont choose to use that enabling that has been given.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65) -- all are not granted grace to come

Why couldn’t this verse simply be saying that the only reason a person comes to Christ is because God has enabled him? The verse doesn’t imply that God has not enabled anyone. All of those unbelievers standing before Jesus as He made this statement have come to Him and yet they still chose not to believe.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me. (John 6:37) -- those granted grace do come, therefore those who do not come did not receive grace

Yes but how long will they stay? “And the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” As I explained before the Greek word translated to “comes” or “cometh” is only used in the present and imperfect tense. So only those who continue to come will not be cast out.

"I give them eternal life and they shall not perish." (John 10:28) -- those granted grace to come cannot ever perish

Who is the word “them” referring to in that verse? Does it refer to those who hear and follow or does it refer to those who heard and followed?

 

[Clare73]

Why couldn’t this verse simply be saying that the only reason a person comes to Christ is because God has enabled him? The verse doesn’t imply that God has not enabled anyone. All of those unbelievers standing before Jesus as He made this statement have come to Him and yet they still chose not to believe.

maybe God has already enabled us all,

Not according to Jesus in John 6:65.

but we then have the choice as to whether we will make use of that enabling. without being enabled we couldnt come, but we have all been enabled by God so if we choose to we can come, if we choose not to we dont use that enabling.

God's enabling work is an inner work by the Holy Spirit, whom the unregenerate (not born again) do not have, and
"the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him" (1 Corthinians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

Therefore, "no one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him" by an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the rebirth (John 3:3, 5).

i think when we are saved we know because we have made a choice to do so.
many in Calvinism seem to not have assurance of salvation, they seem to think they have no say in whether they come or not, so how can they really know if they are saved or not. i think this is a very sad outcome of Calvinism in its followers. in my opinion it leads to works because that is the only way they can know they are saved if they continue to do good things... but if they stop then they must not be saved. to me outwardly looking in it seems an insecure basis to live on. i acknowlege i do not know everything about Calvinism though.

i think we all have the ability to say no to God, and also the ability to say yes to God because God has enabled us that way. so we can come because God enabled us to do so, we all are enabled - but some dont choose to use that enabling that has been given.

 

[StillGods]

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

'it' being the enabling... that although God has given to people some dont use it.
people still have the choice whether to be saved or not.

we are regenerated when we repent.

many people, although God has already given the enabling to do so, choose not repent choosing the world instead.

I dont think God chooses Tom over Mike so enables Tom not Mike.
I think God has given enabling to both and so they both have the ability to repent because God has enabled that, but Tom repents of his own choosing and Mike choses the world rather than deny himself and follow Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

'it' being the enabling... that although God has given to people some dont use it.
people still have the choice whether to be saved or not.

we are regenerated when we repent.

many people, although God has already given the enabling to do so, choose not repent choosing the world instead.

I dont think God chooses Tom over Mike so enables Tom not Mike.
I think God has given enabling to both and so they both have the ability to repent because God has enabled that, but Tom repents of his own choosing and Mike choses the world rather than deny himself and follow Christ.

Amen and as a result Mike is completely responsible for his actions and has no excuse for refusing to repent. In Calvin’s theology Mike is incapable of repentance because God has not made him capable which utterly makes God responsible for Mike’s refusal to repent. God created Mike and set His expectations knowing that Mike would never possibly be capable of meeting them. So when Mike goes before God on judgement day and God asks him why he didn’t repent Mike will say because you didn’t allow me to. Then God will burn Mike for all eternity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not according to Jesus in John 6:65.
God's enabling work is an inner work by the Holy Spirit, whom the unregenerate (not born again) do not have, and
"the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him" (1 Corthinians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

Therefore, "no one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him" by an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the rebirth (John 3:3, 5).

The people in John 6 did not want to believe in Him so they were not permitted to come to Him. Much like when Jesus explained why He spoke in parables. “He who has ears to hear let him hear”. To those who want to know Him they are permitted but for those who do not want to know Him they will not be permitted.

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again the scriptures specifically state that these people believed in Him before the Holy Spirit had been given to them. They were not born again yet because they had not received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

The people in John 6 did not want to believe in Him so they were not permitted to come to Him.

Precisely.

As previously stated from the Scriptures (in the following), without the Holy Spirit, no one wants to believe in him:

"the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him" (1 Corthinians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

Therefore, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" by the rebirth of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, John 3:5), in which all do not participate.

The people in John 6 did not want to believe in Him so they were not permitted to come to Him. Much like when Jesus explained why He spoke in parables. “He who has ears to hear let him hear”. To those who want to know Him they are permitted but for those who do not want to know Him they will not be permitted.

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again the scriptures specifically state that these people believed in Him before the Holy Spirit had been given to them. They were not born again yet because they had not received the Holy Spirit.

Much like when Jesus explained why He spoke in parables. “He who has ears to hear let him hear”.

Precisely. . .everyone has ears, but only those with the Holy Spirit can truly hear the gospel.

To those who want to know Him they are permitted but for those who do not want to know Him they will not be permitted.

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again the scriptures specifically state that these people believed in Him before the Holy Spirit had been given to them. They were not born again yet because they had not received the Holy Spirit.

And again, the Holy Spirit had been given to them in the same manner as he was given to the apostles without signs in John 20:22 before Jesus' death, but had not yet been given to them in that eminent, plentiful and general effusion promised in Joel 2:28 and fulfilled in Acts 2 at Pentecost, where the apostles were likewise given the Holy Spirit, in addition to John 20:22.