Why do other Christians hate Calvinist so much?

strelok0017 · Jan 17, 2012

greatdivide46 said:
If this is true have you ever wondered why Christ does not draw 100% of individuals? Is it because: (1) He is unable to; (2) He just doesn't want to; or (3) He foreknows who will accept Him or not and just doesn't bother to draw the ones He know will reject Him anyway? Or is there some other reason I haven't thought of.

Oh, wait, #3 implies free will, so I don't suppose that could be the right answer, could it?

It's called election.
Unfortunately sometimes it makes people run away from predestination but it is so burden lifting. If God is the one who chose you; and He did; He will keep you. It is His job to keep you not your own because you don't keep yourself by works. Now, God does empower you to good works but that does not mean that good works or any other part of our merit can make God repay us by holding us secured with Him. Predestination makes sure, at least in my case, that I rest fully on the Lord and His work. It's easy to fall into a trap of religion but so far God has been very gracious and has gotten me out of them. I'm not trying to enforce Calvinism on you nor I ever will but know that since God chose us we can't undo His choice. We Christians are His. Period.

Blessings!

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

If this is true have you ever wondered why Christ does not draw 100% of individuals? Is it because: (1) He is unable to; (2) He just doesn't want to; or (3) He foreknows who will accept Him or not and just doesn't bother to draw the ones He know will reject Him anyway? Or is there some other reason I haven't thought of.

Does the Bible ever say #3?

If not, we can rule it out.

German Guy · Jan 17, 2012

I have to admit, I believe in free will pre determined. The Lord knows everything past, present, and future. He knows what our decisions will be and the out come, but that doesnt mean we are forced one way or the other. If the Lord has predetermined everything , why even pray? It is already decided, right? Anyways, we can agree to disagree all day. After that last breath is taken, only 1 decision will make a difference. Did you or did you not accept Jesus. That's what really matters.

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

If the Lord has predetermined everything , why even pray?

Let me pose the counter argument to you my friend.

If the Lord predetermines nothing, why even pray?

When you pray, aren't you asking the Lord to...determine something?

To answer your question in your original argument, we pray, as Jesus says "Your will be done on earth and in heaven..."

We pray precisely because God determines everything.

98cwitr · Jan 17, 2012

Pray to have a relationship with Him, not to get God to do something for you.

German Guy · Jan 17, 2012

I do disagree, we pray to ask for guidance, wisdom, forgiveness, etc.. The Lord knows best, I agree. Sometimes we are given options, we have to choose which path is the right one. That's where prayer comes in. We learn from our choices, right or wrong. But the decision is ours. But one thing we both agree on is, Jesus is the only way.

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

God gives man options, but that in no way means that man is morally neutral in choosing those options, inclined neither to the right or the left.

The bible is clear that man in his fallen state is spiritually dead, hostile to God, finds the gospel foolish. So he is not neutral when it comes to God, but is inclined away from God and towards sin and rebellion.

Only when God changes our heart do we recognize our sin for what it is and willingly turn to Jesus for salvation in repentance and faith.

So God's work in us is to be credited for our salvation, not some mental decision or choice we make.

Robs07M6S · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
The bible is clear that man in his fallen state is spiritually dead, hostile to God, finds the gospel foolish. So he is not neutral when it comes to God, but is inclined away from God and towards sin and rebellion.

I fully agree here and have never had issue with this part.

Skala said:
Only when God changes our heart do we recognize our sin for what it is and willingly turn to Jesus for salvation in repentance and faith.

Its this part that I struggle with.

greatdivide46 · Jan 17, 2012

Originally posted by Skala

Originally posted by greatdivide46
If this is true have you ever wondered why Christ does not draw 100% of individuals? Is it because: (1) He is unable to; (2) He just doesn't want to; or (3) He foreknows who will accept Him or not and just doesn't bother to draw the ones He know will reject Him anyway? Or is there some other reason I haven't thought of.

Click to expand...

Does the Bible ever say #3?

If not, we can rule it out.

So does that mean the reason Jesus does draw 100% of individuals is because He can't or He doesn't want to? Or is there another option that I haven't thought of?

I read the responses and I didn't see another option -- just that #3 was not the right one.

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

What do you struggle with exactly?

"No man can say Jesus is lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)

"You must be born again before you can even see the Kingdom of God, let alone enter it" (John 3)

"The flesh profits nothing...it's the Spirit that gives life." (Jn 6:63)

This article may help you:

Jesus Teaches that Regeneration Precedes Faith by John Hendryx

To ask you another question Robs: Do you think any spiritual change is necessary in a person before a person who was formerly unwilling to repent of his sins and forsake his own righteousness before God and come to Christ is now suddenly willing to do those things?

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

greatdivide46 said:
So does that mean the reason Jesus does draw 100% of individuals is because He can't or He doesn't want to? Or is there another option that I haven't thought of?

I read the responses and I didn't see another option -- just that #3 was not the right one.

Well, Jesus says he came to save all those the Father entrusted him to save..and that he would not lose a single one of them.

In other words the Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) savs exactly who He intends to save, without fail. What does that imply?

phoenixdem · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
Well, Jesus says he came to save all those the Father entrusted him to save..and that he would not lose a single one of them.

In other words the Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) savs exactly who He intends to save, without fail. What does that imply?

It implies this,

Romans

8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that
love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and
whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them
he also glorified.

8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can
be against us?

8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

It seens very plain to me. It is amazing how many people want to argue that
these verses don't say what they say.

Robs07M6S · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
What do you struggle with exactly?

"No man can say Jesus is lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)

"You must be born again before you can even see the Kingdom of God, let alone enter it" (John 3)

"The flesh profits nothing...it's the Spirit that gives life." (Jn 6:63)

I have no problems with any of that, its 100 percent scriptural truth.

This article may help you:

Jesus Teaches that Regeneration Precedes Faith by John Hendryx

Thank you Skala, I will read that.

To ask you another question Robs: Do you think any spiritual change is necessary in a person before a person who was formerly unwilling to repent of his sins and forsake his own righteousness before God and come to Christ is now suddenly willing to do those things?

Yes, before a person is willing to come to Christ there must first be a spiritual change in him. However, it seems to me that this can be resisted by man.

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

Robs07M6S said:
I have no problems with any of that, its 100 percent scriptural truth.

Thank you Skala, I will read that.

Yes, before a person is willing to come to Christ there must first be a spiritual change in him. However, it seems to me that this can be resisted by man.

You say you agree with John 3, but do you really?

It clearly says that you must be born again (regenerate) before you can even see/perceive the kingdom, let alone enter it.

Arminianism says that you see and enter the kingdom and are then born again as a result. I'm pretty sure most Christians who are Arminians (and don't realize it) believe that. I believed it too, when I used to be an Arminian. I was always taught that you have faith in Jesus and then are born again.

But that's seeing and entering the kingdom and then being born again. Where John 3 says you cannot do that until you are born again.

Yes, before a person is willing to come to Christ there must first be a spiritual change in him. However, it seems to me that this can be resisted by man.

What you said doesn't make any sense if you think about. Isn't part of the spiritual change that you are no longer resistent? lol..

If you are changed, why would you resist? That's like saying as you eat food, your belly isn't necessarily getting full. That it could still remain empty even as you consume food.

Robs07M6S · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
You say you agree with John 3, but do you really?

It clearly says that you must be born again (regenerate) before you can even see/perceive the kingdom, let alone enter it.

Arminianism says that you see and enter the kingdom and are then born again as a result. I'm pretty sure most Christians who are Arminians (and don't realize it) believe that. I believed it too, when I used to be an Arminian. I was always taught that you have faith in Jesus and then are born again.

But that's seeing and entering the kingdom and then being born again. Where John 3 says you cannot do that until you are born again.

What you said doesn't make any sense if you think about. Isn't part of the spiritual change that you are no longer resistent? lol..

If you are changed, why would you resist? That's like saying as you eat food, your belly isn't necessarily getting full. That it could still remain empty even as you consume food.

Thanks Skala, I hear what you are saying and im letting it sink in right now. Thanks for hearing me out.

greatdivide46 · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
Well, Jesus says he came to save all those the Father entrusted him to save..and that he would not lose a single one of them.

In other words the Triune God (Father, Son, Spirit) savs exactly who He intends to save, without fail. What does that imply?

That's what I'm trying to find out. Does it imply that He doesn't save some because He can't, because He doesn't want to, or for some other reason that I haven't thought of.

I'm not really concerned about the saved. They're already taken care of. What worries me is why the lost remain lost when God could just as easily save them as he does those whom he does save.

phoenixdem · Jan 17, 2012

greatdivide46 said:
That's what I'm trying to find out. Does it imply that He doesn't save some because He can't, because He doesn't want to, or for some other reason that I haven't thought of.

I'm not really concerned about the saved. They're already taken care of. What worries me is why the lost remain lost when God could just as easily save them as he does those whom he does save.

That is a question that many Christians struggle with. Why me and not them? I have wondered the same thing, but the Scriptures tell us this,

Romans

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me
thus?

377

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction:

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the

vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

When I read the above verses, I guess that I don't have much to say about it except that God will do His Will.

VCViking · Jan 17, 2012

greatdivide46 said:
That's what I'm trying to find out. Does it imply that He doesn't save some because He can't, because He doesn't want to, or for some other reason that I haven't thought of.

I'm not really concerned about the saved. They're already taken care of. What worries me is why the lost remain lost when God could just as easily save them as he does those whom he does save.

This video might help you. He explains what you are asking.

"I don't understand Election" Paul Washer answers - YouTube

VCViking · Jan 17, 2012

Skala said:
You say you agree with John 3, but do you really?

It clearly says that you must be born again (regenerate) before you can even see/perceive the kingdom, let alone enter it.

Arminianism says that you see and enter the kingdom and are then born again as a result. I'm pretty sure most Christians who are Arminians (and don't realize it) believe that. I believed it too, when I used to be an Arminian. I was always taught that you have faith in Jesus and then are born again.

But that's seeing and entering the kingdom and then being born again. Where John 3 says you cannot do that until you are born again.

What you said doesn't make any sense if you think about. Isn't part of the spiritual change that you are no longer resistent? lol..

If you are changed, why would you resist? That's like saying as you eat food, your belly isn't necessarily getting full. That it could still remain empty even as you consume food.

Skala · Jan 17, 2012

greatdivide46 said:
That's what I'm trying to find out. Does it imply that He doesn't save some because He can't, because He doesn't want to, or for some other reason that I haven't thought of.

I'm not really concerned about the saved. They're already taken care of. What worries me is why the lost remain lost when God could just as easily save them as he does those whom he does save.

All Christians whether Calvinist or not believe that God could save everyone if He wanted to. So your concern isn't exclusive to Calvinism is it?

Why do other Christians hate Calvinist so much?

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