LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

[Jamesone5]

You are asking, what part of "all" sins will be forgiven do you have a problem with, and then you quote Mark 3:28 as your proof text.

Did you not read Mark 3:29 just below Mark 3:28? Mark 3:29 starts with a "But", which sets a condition for the word "all" in Mark 3:28. That condition is: if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost you will not have forgiveness.

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus even says it stronger: If a person blasphemes the Holy Ghost, that person will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come.

Read these scriptures again, and it will become clear that there is 1 sin that is not forgiven, ever, by the 10 commandments or by Jesus or by God the Father. That sin is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

I'm not sure why you are even arguing this point.

An eternal sin is the same as sins of the Law? We were talking only about sins of the Law. That is between man and God, not others.

Mark 3:29 starts with a "But", which sets a condition for the word "all" in Mark 3:28---Peter1000

So the word all should be eliminated right?. Bet JS did not even catch that. All means ALL.

And, I know why you are arguing this point because Mormons want to be right. Not determine God's truth but just be personally right.
.

 

[Jamesone5]

Those who commit the unpardonable sin will NOT be forgiven.

And you too ignore this:

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

 

[ViaCrucis]

Our missionaries are well equipped to teach the gospel to those who are prepared to receive the good news with a humble and sincere heart, hear and pray and receive answers from God as to the truthfulness of what our missionaries testify of, which is Jesus is the Son of God and came to earth to save all mankind through his atoning sacrifice. Jesus unlocked the bands of death and made it possible for all mankind to live forever and to live eternally with God.
They also teach that JS was chosen by Jesus Christ to be a prophet in this day to restore the church of Jesus Christ and all the true principles and ordinances necessary for a man to live with God eternally.

This is the crucial message that they testify of. All other questions can be answered over time as a person immerses themselves in the work. Many people, who eventually get recommends and attend the temple find the answers to all questions satisfying and continue strong in the work. There are many others that stumble and slide backwards and eventually leave the church because of an answer to a question is unsatisfying and they cannot receive it.

Your approach to our missionaries was not a truly sincere desire to learn what they had to say, but was more of a chance to argue the doctrines, just like you do on this forum. But at least this forum gives you and us an opportunity to give you answers to questions that a missionary will not get into. The missionary can tell who is ready to receive and who are not. Their time is valuable and need not be spent arguing with someone who is not listening, so they picked up and left and began looking for someone to teach who was looking for the truth.

Don't be too offended, I have asked other religions into my home to do the same thing you did with our missionaries. They left rather disgusted also.

I want you to read through what you've posted here again. Really pay attention to what you're saying.

If I come to your house, tell you to become a Lutheran (not that this would happen, it's not how Lutheranism works), but only tell you, "God sent Jesus to save us, and Martin Luther was a really cool theologian. Pray, and see if you feel something." And am unable to offer any actual, meaningful, answers to any question you might have; but tell you that if you want to learn more you'll need to wait and we'll spoonfeed you what we think you're ready to hear because, well, we know better. Wouldn't that, I don't know, be weird?

Like, if I were trying to get you to change your religion. That's kind of a huge deal. I should be able to answer some pretty basic questions you might have right? Like, you might want to know what you're getting yourself into here. Maybe you'd like a little bit more than, "Pray on it", like maybe something with some actual substance? Something actually meaningful.

Does that not make sense to you? Because without even having to ask I'm pretty sure this makes a whole lot of sense to all the non-Mormons on here. And we aren't all conspiring, it's just--you know--sensible.

As far as your accusations against my character. I can't help but think that this is an attempt at engaging in a martyr complex--"the bad non-Mormons are bullies". Which, well, that's just not true.

I'm not your enemy. None of us here are. The reason any of us participate on here, and discuss any of this, isn't because we're disgruntled, angry, spiteful, or mean-spirited. It comes from a place of genuineness and sincerity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

And you too ignore this:

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

I do not ignore it, but in order for sins to be forgiven a person needs to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. True repentance means giving up the sins. The sins are NOT forgiven automatically.

 

[Jamesone5]

Mark 3:29 is indeed about the unpardonable sin. Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 17:12)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This scripture also is about the unpardonable sin.

The son of perdition in this case is Judas. How is that relating to sins or keeping them or even any of us committing the unpardonable transgression?

 

[Jamesone5]

I do not ignore it, but in order for sins to be forgiven a person needs to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. True repentance means giving up the sins. The sins are NOT forgiven automatically.

Oh, you did ignore it and then tried to jump ahead.

You have to build your case to get from A to B and this verse seems to be a big problem.


Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

 

[He is the way]

The son of perdition in this case is Judas. How is that relating to sins or keeping them or even any of us committing the unpardonable transgression?

Yes this is about Judas who also committed the unpardonable sin. Here is another scripture about the unpardonable sin:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:16)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

 

[Jamesone5]

Yes this is about Judas who also committed the unpardonable sin. Here is another scripture about the unpardonable sin:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:16)

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

And this verse as well proves what exactly?
You are zero for 2 in posting relevant verses by the way.

Tell you what--I am going to take a break from this for now.

 

[He is the way]

Oh, you did ignore it and then tried to jump ahead.

You have to build your case to get from A to B and this verse seems to be a big problem.


Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

Not a problem at all as there is only one sin that can not be forgiven unto man if he repents with Godly sorrow:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 7:9 - 11)

9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

 

[Peter1000]

And you too ignore this:

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

Let me show you how "all" can be altered by a "but"
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I hope you will not quibble that "every" is not the same as "all". God could have said of "all" the trees of the garden.......

If you stopped after reading 16, you would have lost the entire issue of the garden of Eden.

The same way you lose the entire issue when you read only Mark 3:28 without reading Mark 3:29.

God said that Adam could eat of "every" tree of the garden, but the tree of of good and evil.

Jesus said all sins can be forgiven, but the sin of blaspheme of the Holy Ghost.

I could care less in this instant whether I am right or wrong. But the scriptures are on my side this time around.

 

[Jamesone5]

Let me show you how "all" can be altered by a "but"
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I hope you will not quibble that "every" is not the same as "all". God could have said of "all" the trees of the garden.......

If you stopped after reading 16, you would have lost the entire issue of the garden of Eden.

The same way you lose the entire issue when you read only Mark 3:28 without reading Mark 3:29.

God said that Adam could eat of "every" tree of the garden, but the tree of of good and evil.

Jesus said all sins can be forgiven, but the sin of blaspheme of the Holy Ghost.

I could care less in this instant whether I am right or wrong. But the scriptures are on my side this time around.

Ok let us put together the two

Mark 3:28-29 KJV
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Mark 3:28-29 (NKJV)
28Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—

And, then the ASV which you actually quote reads:

28 Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:


And somehow you came up with this:

Jesus said all sins can be forgiven, but the sin of blaspheme of the Holy Ghost.---Peter1000

This must be from the new Peter1000 version of the Bible.

And, did you mean "blasphemy" in your little display of a rewrite of scriptures?

Penalties for that by the way.

 

[Jamesone5]

Not a problem at all as there is only one sin that can not be forgiven unto man if he repents with Godly sorrow:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 7:9 - 11)

9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Most versions do not list it as a"sin". If some of them do, it is an "eternal sin"---far different than sins of the law.

I go to Bible Gateway which probably has 30 or so English versions.

Now with this display of arguing over something that is really small, you have shown me how badly you want to be just right--even if you have to change scripture to pretend you are right.

Not a way to determine God's Truth by any means.

 

[dzheremi]

There were a lot of people killed for breaking the law. People actually believed they were following the law of Moses by killing Jesus. They believed He had committed blaspheme

Yes, and my point to that is so what? In every case when Christ corrected them concerning the law (e.g., the stoning of the woman, divorce, worship, etc.), they had thought that they were doing the right thing. That doesn't mean that they actually were. Christ's correction was not mere suggestion or opinion. They were quite simply wrong.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you are giving such primacy to the wicked Jews instead of affirming the truth of Christ. You know, there is this very basic question that is the very basic dividing line between the Christian and the non-Christian ('who do you say that I am?'), and you are showing by your argument here that you/your religion answers it incorrectly.

I hope I never have to see another Mormon post on this website that complains about how you guys are not regarded as Christians, then, when you can't even understand and affirm why it is that you even want to be Christians and not Jews. For actual Christians/Christianity, this is perhaps the most basic thing that we can all affirm, and yet you cannot do so, because "well, they thought He was committing blasphemy." Their thoughts don't matter at all. Only Christ matters. He has fulfilled the law.

Forgiving them for what they did to Him was an act of kindness and LOVE.

Of course.

It does not mean that everyone will be forgiven for their sins:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 28:13)

13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

What does this have to do with anything? What sin does Christ have to confess? We're talking about Christ's sacrifice, not what the OT has written about what men should or shouldn't do. Again, what Christ did and taught is our standard, and if you think there is any such conflict between that and the OT, that just shows us all that you don't understand the OT or Jesus.

Yikes. It's like there's zero understanding of even the most basic points of Christian theology. Christ's sinless, voluntary death is such a fundamental point, I can't help but see the recourse to such a motivated reading of the OT as a fairly obvious attempt to implicitly deny this bedrock of the Christian faith.

Meanwhile actual Christians pray things like this:

"When He, the Sinless One, was prepared to accept the voluntary death for us sinners..."

This is the love of God that you are always posting about, that you nevertheless spit on and mock with your strange and disturbing Judaizing tendencies. Lord have mercy.

 

[He is the way]

Most versions do not list it as a"sin". If some of them do, it is an "eternal sin"---far different than sins of the law.

I go to Bible Gateway which probably has 30 or so English versions.

Now with this display of arguing over something that is really small, you have shown me how badly you want to be just right--even if you have to change scripture to pretend you are right.

Not a way to determine God's Truth by any means.

I did not change scripture. Sin NEEDS to be repented of, plain and simple.

 

[He is the way]

Yes, and my point to that is so what? In every case when Christ corrected them concerning the law (e.g., the stoning of the woman, divorce, worship, etc.), they had thought that they were doing the right thing. That doesn't mean that they actually were. Christ's correction was not mere suggestion or opinion. They were quite simply wrong.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you are giving such primacy to the wicked Jews instead of affirming the truth of Christ. You know, there is this very basic question that is the very basic dividing line between the Christian and the non-Christian ('who do you say that I am?'), and you are showing by your argument here that you/your religion answers it incorrectly.

I hope I never have to see another Mormon post on this website that complains about how you guys are not regarded as Christians, then, when you can't even understand and affirm why it is that you even want to be Christians and not Jews. For actual Christians/Christianity, this is perhaps the most basic thing that we can all affirm, and yet you cannot do so, because "well, they thought He was committing blasphemy." Their thoughts don't matter at all. Only Christ matters. He has fulfilled the law.



Of course.



What does this have to do with anything? What sin does Christ have to confess? We're talking about Christ's sacrifice, not what the OT has written about what men should or shouldn't do. Again, what Christ did and taught is our standard, and if you think there is any such conflict between that and the OT, that just shows us all that you don't understand the OT or Jesus.

Yikes. It's like there's zero understanding of even the most basic points of Christian theology. Christ's sinless, voluntary death is such a fundamental point, I can't help but see the recourse to such a motivated reading of the OT as a fairly obvious attempt to implicitly deny this bedrock of the Christian faith.

Meanwhile actual Christians pray things like this:


"When He, the Sinless One, was prepared to accept the voluntary death for us sinners..."

This is the love of God that you are always posting about, that you nevertheless spit on and mock with your strange and disturbing Judaizing tendencies. Lord have mercy.

I did not say Jesus sinned. I said: " People actually believed they were following the law of Moses by killing Jesus." There is a big difference there whether you can see it or not.

 

[Jamesone5]

I did not change scripture. Sin NEEDS to be repented of, plain and simple.

Thank you for your unneeded advice.

Why would I need the Mormon church to tell me what the Word is saying---- which you have proved to me that you do not understand anyway?

 

[He is the way]

Thank you for your unneeded advice.

Why would I need the Mormon church to tell me what the Word is saying---- which you have proved to me that you do not understand anyway?

I understand, because I see the big picture. True Christians LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments.

 

[Jamesone5]

I understand, because I see the big picture. True Christians LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments.

Yes, yes we have all heard about your Mormon holy ghost who in this case is leading Mormons astray.

Believe in the True Christ and then you find it is less about "I" as in "I see the big picture."

 

[dzheremi]

I did not say Jesus sinned. I said: " People actually believed they were following the law of Moses by killing Jesus." There is a big difference there whether you can see it or not.

Yes, I see the big difference, and the result is that you are placing the law of Moses above the sacrifice of Christ. That is the most horrible reading of the Bible that I can possibly think of. Christians read the Old (Testament) in the Light of the New, which is Christ Himself, Who gives light to every man that comes into the world. It seems that Mormons or at least Mormons like you read the NT through an OT lens (and a warped one, at that), as though Christ is basically nothing. I guess Moses is the way for you?

Christ is most definitely above the law of Moses, having fulfilled it in His coming, preaching, miracles, death, and resurrection. And in His second coming, which we look to. So your reading is incredibly wrong. There are many very good reasons we are not Jews, all of which are concluded in Christ; Christ Himself is the reason why we do not read the scriptures as you do.

 

[He is the way]

Yes, yes we have all heard about your Mormon holy ghost who in this case is leading Mormons astray.

Believe in the True Christ and then you find it is less about "I" as in "I see the big picture."

I do not hate the cross and I understand the cross and why we are to take up out cross and follow Christ.