LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

[Peter1000]

Huh. Seems like Spencer W. Kimball should have renamed that book The Demands of Forgiveness. It's certainly not a miracle to turn salvation into a quid pro quo debacle.

Do you really believe that a person can say: I believe in Christ (once in their life) and then go about raping and murdering and with confidence expect that "no man can pluck me out of the hand of Jesus"?

If you have read Matthew 5-7 I am sure you realize that in order for a person not to be plucked out of the hand of Jesus, they must believe in him and be following him.

IOW lip service will not get you eternal life. Hence Kimball is correct to say that forgiveness is a miracle. That Jesus would forgive us as fallen men, but trying to follow him and do as he has commanded us to do in the scriptures. It is these fallen men who will not be plucked out of the hand of Jesus. Those who say they love Jesus but follow not after him will not have eternal life with him.

 

[Jamesone5]

Do you really believe that a person can say: I believe in Christ (once in their life) and then go about raping and murdering and with confidence expect that "no man can pluck me out of the hand of Jesus"?

If you have read Matthew 5-7 I am sure you realize that in order for a person not to be plucked out of the hand of Jesus, they must believe in him and be following him.

IOW lip service will not get you eternal life. Hence Kimball is correct to say that forgiveness is a miracle. That Jesus would forgive us as fallen men, but trying to follow him and do as he has commanded us to do in the scriptures. It is these fallen men who will not be plucked out of the hand of Jesus. Those who say they love Jesus but follow not after him will not have eternal life with him.

Gee, isn't that what your Mormons Church does? Give lip service to Christ and then tells it's Members to then do it on your own?

Does this verse mean "we can be plucked [or snatched}out of Christ's Hands", as you say?

John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Those of us who are in Christ have moved for beyond your arguments which tries to defend the non-Biblical Blood Atonement practice of your Church.

 

[dzheremi]

Do you really believe that a person can say: I believe in Christ (once in their life) and then go about raping and murdering and with confidence expect that "no man can pluck me out of the hand of Jesus"?

What is this based on? When did I even hint at anything so perverse? Obviously I don't believe that. If I believe something, I'll put it in my posts, thank you very much.

Those who say they love Jesus but follow not after him will not have eternal life with him.

This is a great warning to Mormons and others who claim to follow Christ but actually have a different religion, with its own Christ molded according to what they accept instead of Christianity.

 

[He is the way]

The creed most definitely does not say that God the Father died on the cross. That's never been a part of Christianity. But I have seen Mormons claim that. One of them you might recognize:

"I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, c. 1976, p. 346

So why are you now asking Christians this as though it is something that is wrong, when your very own founding prophet teaches it?

No doubt it is wrong -- in fact, it's one of the many ways that Mormonism is wrong.

Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are NOT of the same substance.

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are NOT of the same substance.

Yes they are. This is basic Christian theology. If you disbelieve in this, you do not believe in the Christian God, and will never be accepted as Christians. Of course we know that already about Mormons, but the fact that you guys attempt to present yourselves a Christians here on CF while disbelieving in His revelation to us in His Only-Begotten Son Jesus Christ is simply not acceptable.

What Christ our God said to St. Peter in Matthew 16:23 is applicable to Mormon theological assertions:

Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

 

[Peter1000]

We humans are not uncreated beings. God is; therefore Father, Son, anf Holy Spirit Who are uncreated share one divine essence. Only God is uncreated! When Christians are exalted, they will still not be gods!

Humans had a beginning at creation; God did not begin as a human.

Psalm 90
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

In Mormonism, men are the same essence as gods, and have always existed, but weren't always exalted.

D&C 132:
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

If something cannot be destroyed, like your exalted, gloriously resurrected body, and it will exist for ever and ever and ever, then we say it could only have been in existence for ever and ever and ever. IOW if a substance cannot be destroyed, that substance could not have been made.

That is why we all say that God is uncreated. And we are right. The same thought must exist for humans, whose spirits (and resurrected bodies) can never be destroyed also. Therefore by definition, they too must be uncreated. It sounds heretical, I know, but that is only because after the 2nd century we lost the true doctrines of the pre-earth spirit existence, and so for 1800 years, until JS that doctrine has been squashed by the doctors of religion, who could not reconcile in their finite minds that humans could not possibly be uncreated, not understanding the uncreated spirit inside of each human.

 

[He is the way]

Yes they are. This is basic Christian theology. If you disbelieve in this, you do not believe in the Christian God, and will never be accepted as Christians. Of course we know that already about Mormons, but the fact that you guys attempt to present yourselves a Christians here on CF while disbelieving in His revelation to us in His Only-Begotten Son Jesus Christ is simply not acceptable.

What Christ our God said to St. Peter in Matthew 16:23 is applicable to Mormon theological assertions:

Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

Then I do not believe in the Christian God because Jesus Christ has a different theology of how He and the Father are one:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

NO mention of being of the same substance here. I believe Jesus Christ over the Christian God.

 

[Peter1000]

Yes they are. This is basic Christian theology. If you disbelieve in this, you do not believe in the Christian God, and will never be accepted as Christians. Of course we know that already about Mormons, but the fact that you guys attempt to present yourselves a Christians here on CF while disbelieving in His revelation to us in His Only-Begotten Son Jesus Christ is simply not acceptable.

What Christ our God said to St. Peter in Matthew 16:23 is applicable to Mormon theological assertions:

Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

This is the very reason that HITW would make a statement that according to your belief, God the Father must have been crucified with Jesus on the cross.

And here is his thinking. If God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God and they are made of the same substance, then this one God was crucified on the cross included all three of them.

Which means you need to explain how God the Father, who, according to the scriptures, abandoned Jesus on the cross, can be in a different place than Jesus and still be of the same substance.

I do recall you saying that being of the same substance does not mean They are one physically. So I took from that, that They could be of the same essence/substance and still be separate from each other, like in the case of the cross, and the baptism, or when Jesus says he is going to heaven, but will send the Holy Spirit to comfort you.

I also recall you made an analogy that humans are of the human essence, and their are millions of separate and distinct humans running around on the earth. Same with the Godhead, there are 3 in the Godhead and even though they are of the same essence, they are not physically one, but are physically separate and distinct. Am I getting this right?

 

[dzheremi]

This is the very reason that HITW would make a statement that according to your belief, God the Father must have been crucified with Jesus on the cross.

And here is his thinking. If God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God and they are made of the same substance, then this one God was crucified on the cross included all three of them.

That is incorrect.

Which means you need to explain how God the Father, who, according to the scriptures, abandoned Jesus on the cross, can be in a different place than Jesus and still be of the same substance.

I do recall you saying that being of the same substance does not mean They are one physically. So I took from that, that They could be of the same essence/substance and still be separate from each other, like in the case of the cross, and the baptism, or when Jesus says he is going to heaven, but will send the Holy Spirit to comfort you.

This is as simple as pointing out the difference between ousia and hypostasis, two terms used in the Creed. On this matter, I cannot hope to do any better than our father St. Basil of Caesarea, who distinguishes them in the following way:

The distinction between ousia and hypostases is the same as that between the general and the particular; as, for instance, between the animal and the particular man. Wherefore, in the case of the Godhead, we confess one essence or substance so as not to give variant definition of existence, but we confess a particular hypostasis, in order that our conception of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit may be without confusion and clear.​

So God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit share the same ousia (the divine essence), but are different hypostases (the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Holy Spirit is not either, and neither are the Holy Spirit), in a way that is analogous to how all human beings share the human nature, but that doesn't make each individual the same person. I'm still me, you're still you, Ironhold's still Ironhold, Phoebe Ann is still Phoebe Ann, etc..

I also recall you made an analogy that humans are of the human essence, and their are millions of separate and distinct humans running around on the earth. Same with the Godhead, there are 3 in the Godhead and even though they are of the same essence, they are not physically one, but are physically separate and distinct. Am I getting this right?

See above. You are confusing essence/substance/ousia with hypostasis. And that distinction was not what I was even addressing in that post; if you remember correctly, the point was to explain why the fathers used the term ousia and not something else that is more concrete.

I hope this helps in some way.

 

[Rescued One]

If something cannot be destroyed, like your exalted, gloriously resurrected body, and it will exist for ever and ever and ever, then we say it could only have been in existence for ever and ever and ever. IOW if a substance cannot be destroyed, that substance could not have been made.

That is why we all say that God is uncreated. And we are right. The same thought must exist for humans, whose spirits (and resurrected bodies) can never be destroyed also. Therefore by definition, they too must be uncreated. It sounds heretical, I know, but that is only because after the 2nd century we lost the true doctrines of the pre-earth spirit existence, and so for 1800 years, until JS that doctrine has been squashed by the doctors of religion, who could not reconcile in their finite minds that humans could not possibly be uncreated, not understanding the uncreated spirit inside of each human.

Finite minds???

Here is an example of what was taught in Priesthood meetings in the eighties:

President Brigham Young explained:

"...It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being" (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290)
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984, p. 153

 

[Rescued One]

Note: Per Mormonism Non-Mormons are "the world."

 

[He is the way]

Note: Per Mormonism Non-Mormons are "the world."

We, being members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, know that being worldly is sin. Therefore we are to deny ourselves of ungodliness and worldly lusts:

(New Testament | Titus 2:11 - 15)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[Rescued One]

We, being members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, know that being worldly is sin.

God will judge.

Where is boasting then?

 

[He is the way]

God will judge.

Where is boasting then?

Jesus knows who His friends are:

(New Testament | John 15:13 - 14)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 2:9)

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Rescued One]

(New Testament | John 15:13 - 14)

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.[/QUOTE]

Of course, He knows. God is omniscient. And He's not waiting for an outcome. He knows the plans He has for His friends and His plans can't be thwarted.


Job 42
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Psalm 139:16
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Rescued One]

He is the way said, "Then I do not believe in the Christian God because Jesus Christ has a different theology of how He and the Father are one:"

This is worth saving.

 

[Jamesone5]

He is the way said, "Then I do not believe in the Christian God because Jesus Christ has a different theology of how He and the Father are one:"

This is worth saving.

Good catch.
And then they want us to consider them Christians.

 

[Rescued One]

Then I do not believe in the Christian God because Jesus Christ has a different theology of how He and the Father are one:

Thank you. Rarely does a Mormon reveal this so clearly.

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

NO mention of being of the same substance here. I believe Jesus Christ over the Christian God.

There is no mention of Joseph Smith's false teachings either:

Effective immediately, a man and a woman who have been married civilly may be sealed in the temple anytime after they receive their temple recommends for the sealing ordinance, according to a May 6 letter signed by President Russell M. Nelson and his counselors in the First Presidency, President Dallin H. Oaks and President Henry B. Eyring.

“We affirm that the sealing of a man and woman in the temple offers eternal blessings to the couple and their posterity that can be gained in no other way,” wrote the First Presidency in the letter to general and local leaders. “We encourage all such couples to qualify for sealing ordinances and blessings.”

The change in policy establishes a global standard in the Church regarding civil marriages and temple sealings, the authority to unite families eternally. Local laws in more than half the countries where the Church is established dictate a couple marry civilly before being sealed in the temple, making the scenario common outside of the United States.
First Presidency Discontinues One-Year Waiting Period for Temple Sealings after Civil Marriage - Church News and Events

Mark 12:18-24
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

My friends, do you understand the implication and truth of this statement of the Lord? Though somewhat veiled in scripture, it is clear and understandable when supported by modern revelation.

Elder James E. Talmage writes: “The Lord’s meaning was clear, that in the resurrected state there can be no question among the seven brothers as to whose wife for eternity the woman shall be, since all except the first had married her for the duration of mortal life only. … In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity” (Jesus the Christ, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982, p. 509).

Undoubtedly, the first husband married the woman for eternity by a ceremony that was not limited by time. She became a widow at his demise until she should also die and join her husband. Now, she married number two, “until death do you part,” and it definitely parted them even before posterity, and he went into the spirit world through the veil and with no wife, for their contract also had been terminated by death. And brothers numbers three and four and five and six and finally number seven in turn all married her in temporary marriage, in which ceremonies were the limitations, “so long as you both shall live.”
Temples and Eternal Marriage

Marriage for time and for eternity is the strait gate and the narrow way (spoken of in the scriptures) “that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it,” but “broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat.” (Doc. and Cov. D&C 132:22, 25.) If Satan and his hosts can persuade you to take the broad highway of worldly marriage that ends with death, he has defeated you in your opportunity for the highest degree of eternal happiness through marriage and increase throughout eternity.
“Chapter 12: The Divine Purpose of Marriage,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, 109

Should you believe Harold B. Lee or Jesus?



John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[He is the way]

Thank you. Rarely does a Mormon reveal this so clearly.





There is no mention of Joseph Smith's false teachings either:

Effective immediately, a man and a woman who have been married civilly may be sealed in the temple anytime after they receive their temple recommends for the sealing ordinance, according to a May 6 letter signed by President Russell M. Nelson and his counselors in the First Presidency, President Dallin H. Oaks and President Henry B. Eyring.

“We affirm that the sealing of a man and woman in the temple offers eternal blessings to the couple and their posterity that can be gained in no other way,” wrote the First Presidency in the letter to general and local leaders. “We encourage all such couples to qualify for sealing ordinances and blessings.”

The change in policy establishes a global standard in the Church regarding civil marriages and temple sealings, the authority to unite families eternally. Local laws in more than half the countries where the Church is established dictate a couple marry civilly before being sealed in the temple, making the scenario common outside of the United States.
First Presidency Discontinues One-Year Waiting Period for Temple Sealings after Civil Marriage - Church News and Events

Mark 12:18-24
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

My friends, do you understand the implication and truth of this statement of the Lord? Though somewhat veiled in scripture, it is clear and understandable when supported by modern revelation.

Elder James E. Talmage writes: “The Lord’s meaning was clear, that in the resurrected state there can be no question among the seven brothers as to whose wife for eternity the woman shall be, since all except the first had married her for the duration of mortal life only. … In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity” (Jesus the Christ, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982, p. 509).

Undoubtedly, the first husband married the woman for eternity by a ceremony that was not limited by time. She became a widow at his demise until she should also die and join her husband. Now, she married number two, “until death do you part,” and it definitely parted them even before posterity, and he went into the spirit world through the veil and with no wife, for their contract also had been terminated by death. And brothers numbers three and four and five and six and finally number seven in turn all married her in temporary marriage, in which ceremonies were the limitations, “so long as you both shall live.”
Temples and Eternal Marriage

Marriage for time and for eternity is the strait gate and the narrow way (spoken of in the scriptures) “that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it,” but “broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat.” (Doc. and Cov. D&C 132:22, 25.) If Satan and his hosts can persuade you to take the broad highway of worldly marriage that ends with death, he has defeated you in your opportunity for the highest degree of eternal happiness through marriage and increase throughout eternity.
“Chapter 12: The Divine Purpose of Marriage,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, 109

Should you believe Harold B. Lee or Jesus?

View attachment 274250

John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You said: "Should you believe Harold B. Lee or Jesus?"

They are both correct.