LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

[He is the way]

He Is The Way, not only is this akin to letting the fox guard the hen house (as though we can trust and know our own hearts, when the Holy Bible says otherwise), but you still haven't answered the question.

The question goes like this:

If these people were not "loving Him and keeping His commandments" (which, again, I think we can agree they were not), as you've said was necessary for Christ's atonement to apply to them (or else I can't understand what your original statement was trying to say...), then why does He ask that these people who were not doing what they should do be forgiven? Wouldn't He of all people, being the very savior, have known this rule already, recognized that they weren't following it by the very act of what they were doing (whether they understood it or not), and then known that His atonement would not apply to them -- i.e., they would not be forgiven of their sin(s)? In that case, why would He ask that of the Father? "O Father, break Your own unbreakable rule...just...because?"

I really do not see how you can have it both ways. Either "loving Him and following His commandments" is some kind of a priori principle by which the atonement 'works'/is 'activated', in which case these people are NOT forgiven/the atonement does not apply to them, or it is isn't, in which case your statement -- which I take to be the common Mormon view based on some kind of doctrinal pronouncement in Mormonism -- is wrong, as it is contradicted from the very mouth of Jesus Christ our Lord, God, and Savior on the cross.

Explain how this works. Don't answer with questions that attempt to take things in a different direction, please.

What was Jesus Christ forgiving them for? They were killing the Son of God, their Savior and Redeemer, but they did not know who He was. Jesus was not the only one that was killed for blasphemy. They believed he was guilty of this crime that was punishable by death:

(Old Testament | Leviticus 24:16)

16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

However Jesus knew that they did not understand what they were doing so He rightfully forgave them for killing Him. In order for them to be forgiven of any other sins, they had to repent and thereafter keep the commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

Can you please just answer the question? I don't know how I can be more explicit in what I am asking than in my last post, but you are still dancing around the point:

How is it that you can say that Christ's atonement (the forgiveness of sins) is for those who "love Him and keep His commandments" (and presumably not for others) when there He is, on the holy cross itself, asking for the forgiveness of the very people who are having Him crucified -- which is the exact opposite of "loving Him and keeping His commandments"?

 

[He is the way]

Can you please just answer the question? I don't know how I can be more explicit in what I am asking than in my last post, but you are still dancing around the point:

How is it that you can say that Christ's atonement (the forgiveness of sins) is for those who "love Him and keep His commandments" (and presumably not for others) when there He is, on the holy cross itself, asking for the forgiveness of the very people who are having Him crucified -- which is the exact opposite of "loving Him and keeping His commandments"?

I suspect you do not understand what I said. The people who were having Him crucified were doing what they were commanded to do by the Lord namely putting to death a person guilty of blasphemy. Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. They did not know that He was the Son of God, their Savior, and Redeemer so He did not want that held against them. The Jews were following the law of Moses and the Romans were carrying out the punishment. Jesus did NOT say that He was forgiving them for ALL of their sins. Are you assuming that He was?

 

[BigDaddy4]

If you were shooting one question after another and not taking a breath in between, I could understand the missionary finally saying, OK that is enough for today and picking up his materials and leaving.

Interesting blame shift. HAD to be ViaCrucis' fault right? Pathetic.

but missionaries are young and are there to give people the information necessary for them to get on their knees and ask God if these things are true.

Lame excuse. Your missionaries wear the title of "Elder", right? Throughout Biblical and Christian church history, Elders have been those who are mature in their faith and knowledgeable in Scripture, not just some 18- or 19-year old teenager barely out of what your church calls a "seminary".

In fact, Titus 1:9 says and Elder "must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it."

If your elders cannot do that, then they should not be elders.

 

[dzheremi]

I suspect you do not understand what I said. The people who were having Him crucified were doing what they were commanded to do by the Lord namely putting to death a person guilty of blasphemy. Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. They did not know that He was the Son of God, their Savior, and Redeemer so He did not want that held against them. The Jews were following the law of Moses and the Romans were carrying out the punishment.

Hold on...it is your contention that this was them "loving Him and following His commandments", because this was 'following the law of Moses'? In that case, why did Christ Himself ever educate them on said law in the first place? You know, all of the "You have heard it said ____, but I say unto you...", or "Out of the hardness of your hearts XYZ", etc.? Were those authoritative rulings on said questions, or was it enough that the people Christ was correcting thought that they were following the law correctly? (So Christ need not have bothered...)

Because I think it's a pretty big deal in a Christian context that Christ was not actually guilty of blasphemy at all, because He is in fact God, the Son of God, and the Messiah. So there is no "They were just following the law". Christ Himself is the embodiment of how to follow the law, and He stopped stoning that would have been legal under said law, forbade divorce that would have been legal under said law, and did all kinds of other things all to show that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Why don't you believe Him, in that case? This kind of take on the matter shows that even though Christ has come and shown all of these things, you still don't believe. You think the Sabbath remains above everything else, even above Christ Himself despite His fulfillment of the law of Moses.

Sounds like you're in the wrong religion there, unless 'the way' in "He Is The Way" refers to Moses, and not Jesus.

Jesus did NOT say that He was forgiving them for ALL of their sins. Are you assuming that He was?

This is irrelevant to the question.

 

[dzheremi]

Hey, other Mormons: Are the Jewish supremacy ideas posted He Is the Way common in your religion? Just curious, as I've never encountered this sort of thing from a Mormon before.

I guess maybe this helps explain the fixation on posthumously baptizing Jewish victims of the Holocaust...

 

[Jamesone5]

I suspect you do not understand what I said. The people who were having Him crucified were doing what they were commanded to do by the Lord namely putting to death a person guilty of blasphemy. Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do. They did not know that He was the Son of God, their Savior, and Redeemer so He did not want that held against them. The Jews were following the law of Moses and the Romans were carrying out the punishment. Jesus did NOT say that He was forgiving them for ALL of their sins. Are you assuming that He was?

Wow a God of Love who only forgives us for some of our sins:

Jesus did NOT say that He was forgiving them for ALL of their sins---He is the Way

 

[dzheremi]

The thing that gets me about that is that when did Jesus ever specify "all" anyway? Like in the institution of the Lord's supper in Matthew 26, we read:

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."​

If I were to look at this like our Mormon friends have, I would say "Ah! He didn't say it was given for the remission of all sins, so it must not have been! Also, He said 'many', not 'all', so obviously He didn't sacrifice Himself for all people!"

And yet this is the same religion which will give their 'sacrament', supposedly representing this same sacrifice, to all people, whether they're members or not: "As you know, the bread and water of the sacrament are meant for Church members so we can renew our baptismal covenants. However, we should not do anything during sacrament meeting to prevent nonmembers from partaking of the sacrament." (source)

 

[He is the way]

Hold on...it is your contention that this was them "loving Him and following His commandments", because this was 'following the law of Moses'? In that case, why did Christ Himself ever educate them on said law in the first place? You know, all of the "You have heard it said ____, but I say unto you...", or "Out of the hardness of your hearts XYZ", etc.? Were those authoritative rulings on said questions, or was it enough that the people Christ was correcting thought that they were following the law correctly? (So Christ need not have bothered...)

Because I think it's a pretty big deal in a Christian context that Christ was not actually guilty of blasphemy at all, because He is in fact God, the Son of God, and the Messiah. So there is no "They were just following the law". Christ Himself is the embodiment of how to follow the law, and He stopped stoning that would have been legal under said law, forbade divorce that would have been legal under said law, and did all kinds of other things all to show that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Why don't you believe Him, in that case? This kind of take on the matter shows that even though Christ has come and shown all of these things, you still don't believe. You think the Sabbath remains above everything else, even above Christ Himself despite His fulfillment of the law of Moses.

Sounds like you're in the wrong religion there, unless 'the way' in "He Is The Way" refers to Moses, and not Jesus.



This is irrelevant to the question.

There were a lot of people killed for breaking the law. People actually believed they were following the law of Moses by killing Jesus. They believed He had committed blaspheme:

(Old Testament | 1 Kings 21:10)

10 And set two men, sons of Belial, before him, to bear witness against him, saying, Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.

(New Testament | John 10:31 - 33)

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:64 - 65)

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Forgiving them for what they did to Him was an act of kindness and LOVE. It does not mean that everyone will be forgiven for their sins:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 28:13)

13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

 

[He is the way]

Wow a God of Love who only forgives us for some of our sins:

Jesus did NOT say that He was forgiving them for ALL of their sins---He is the Way

Those who commit the unpardonable sin will NOT be forgiven.

 

[Peter1000]

Frustrating to defend an indefesibable religion isn't it?
Here is what I said:

Many ex-Mormons like me agree that the reason many Mormons do not like the Cross or even hate it at times, is that it represents defeat for satan, that those "many" do not realize.----Jamesone5

Which somehow you transformed into all of this and then went on-and-on about what you thought I was telling you:

You may really think that the church does not show the cross because it reminds us of satan's defeat. But I will tell you as a active member of the church for 68 years, I have never heard such an outlandish idea, that we would be worshiping satan and we are cursing the cross because it is on the cross that satan was defeated. Pure nonsense.

So now that you know it is nonsense to the nth degree, do not mention it again, or you will be under condemnation for knowingly telling a lie.---Peter1000

You said it yourself----- [changing my words to fit your agenda is] pure nonsense.

And then that last paragraph----are you pretending to be my consciense? That I should just let you talk for me?

Take a chill pill or whatever it might take to settle down---maybe pray for endurance that your Article of Faith tells you to only hope for--whatever.

And stick with ONLY what you believe you know--I will take care of my own beliefs and knowledge.

All I did was ask you to clarify what you said, because it sounded like we did not like the cross because it was the defeat of satan. (Implying that we like satan and worship him in some way).

Since then, I have come to a conclusion that what you were saying is, we don't like the cross because we are not aware that it was the defeat of satan. (which makes more sense). So will you confirm that I am on the right track now. Thank you.

Just the idea that there are Mormons that don't like the cross or actually hate it is a repugnant idea on your part. You must have been talking to some ex-Mormons when they were stoned out of their minds, because no member of the Church of Jesus Christ that I know would ever be inclined to dislike or hate the cross. That is just nonsense.

 

[Jamesone5]

Those who commit the unpardonable sin will NOT be forgiven.

Christ seems to disagree with you, especially about sin

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

And this next verse tells you what will NOT be forgiven:

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Tell you what. With the True Holy Spirit, I would blaspheme against that True Holy Spirit by denying That Power and went back to Mormonism with their false holy Ghost.

 

[Peter1000]

How about asking a question, listening and paying attention to the answer, and based upon the answer given asking for further clarification?

Would that be acceptable?



Then perhaps don't send people ill-equipped to address meaningful religious questions out to try and convert people?

-CryptoLutheran

Our missionaries are well equipped to teach the gospel to those who are prepared to receive the good news with a humble and sincere heart, hear and pray and receive answers from God as to the truthfulness of what our missionaries testify of, which is Jesus is the Son of God and came to earth to save all mankind through his atoning sacrifice. Jesus unlocked the bands of death and made it possible for all mankind to live forever and to live eternally with God.
They also teach that JS was chosen by Jesus Christ to be a prophet in this day to restore the church of Jesus Christ and all the true principles and ordinances necessary for a man to live with God eternally.

This is the crucial message that they testify of. All other questions can be answered over time as a person immerses themselves in the work. Many people, who eventually get recommends and attend the temple find the answers to all questions satisfying and continue strong in the work. There are many others that stumble and slide backwards and eventually leave the church because of an answer to a question is unsatisfying and they cannot receive it.

Your approach to our missionaries was not a truly sincere desire to learn what they had to say, but was more of a chance to argue the doctrines, just like you do on this forum. But at least this forum gives you and us an opportunity to give you answers to questions that a missionary will not get into. The missionary can tell who is ready to receive and who are not. Their time is valuable and need not be spent arguing with someone who is not listening, so they picked up and left and began looking for someone to teach who was looking for the truth.

Don't be too offended, I have asked other religions into my home to do the same thing you did with our missionaries. They left rather disgusted also.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The thing that gets me about that is that when did Jesus ever specify "all" anyway? Like in the institution of the Lord's supper in Matthew 26, we read:

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."​

If I were to look at this like our Mormon friends have, I would say "Ah! He didn't say it was given for the remission of all sins, so it must not have been! Also, He said 'many', not 'all', so obviously He didn't sacrifice Himself for all people!"

And yet this is the same religion which will give their 'sacrament', supposedly representing this same sacrifice, to all people, whether they're members or not: "As you know, the bread and water of the sacrament are meant for Church members so we can renew our baptismal covenants. However, we should not do anything during sacrament meeting to prevent nonmembers from partaking of the sacrament." (source)

Good points. We already know that Mormons have difficulty with the word "all", i.e., Jesus created all things (John 1:3) doesn't really mean "all things", only what they have redefined "all" to mean.

 

[He is the way]

Christ seems to disagree with you, especially about sin

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

And this next verse tells you what will NOT be forgiven:

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Tell you what. With the True Holy Spirit, I would blaspheme against that True Holy Spirit by denying That Power and went back to Mormonism with their false holy Ghost.

Mark 3:29 is indeed about the unpardonable sin. Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 17:12)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This scripture also is about the unpardonable sin.

 

[Jamesone5]

Mark 3:29 is indeed about the unpardonable sin. Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 17:12)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

This scripture also is about the unpardonable sin.

Does the 10 Commandments cover that "sin" as you say in Mark 3:29?

And I have no idea what kind of case you are trying to make with your John verse.

 

[He is the way]

Does the 10 Commandments cover that "sin" as you say in Mark 3:29?

And I have no idea what kind of case you are trying to make with your John verse.

The 10 commandments do not cover all sin.

Don't you know that Mark 3:29 is about the son of perdition?

 

[Jamesone5]

W

The 10 commandments do not cover all sin.

Don't you know that Mark 3:29 is about the son of perdition?

Mark 3:29 is about the son of perdition? That is news to even Christ.

And what part of ALL sins will be forgiven do you have a problem with?

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

 

[He is the way]

W


Mark 3:29 is about the son of perdition? That is news to even Christ.

And what part of ALL sins will be forgiven do you have a problem with?

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

You are taking that scripture out of context:

(New Testament | Mark 3:28 - 29)

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

(New Testament | Matthew 12:32)

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[Peter1000]

W


Mark 3:29 is about the son of perdition? That is news to even Christ.

And what part of ALL sins will be forgiven do you have a problem with?

Mark 3:28
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme:

You are asking, what part of "all" sins will be forgiven do you have a problem with, and then you quote Mark 3:28 as your proof text.

Did you not read Mark 3:29 just below Mark 3:28? Mark 3:29 starts with a "But", which sets a condition for the word "all" in Mark 3:28. That condition is: if you blaspheme the Holy Ghost you will not have forgiveness.

In Matthew 12:32 Jesus even says it stronger: If a person blasphemes the Holy Ghost, that person will not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come.

Read these scriptures again, and it will become clear that there is 1 sin that is not forgiven, ever, by the 10 commandments or by Jesus or by God the Father. That sin is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

I'm not sure why you are even arguing this point.