Why do creationists insist that the theory of evolution is inherently atheistic?

WisdomTree

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I won't dispute that, but that kind of sight is extremely myopic -- moreso than science.

To say "we see a history of 4 billion years" does not convince me to abandon Embedded Age Creation for Theistic Evolution.

Science points toward the how billion year old Earth. Science is cold and heartless, it has no aim. It's just a method we use to find things out (science coming from the Latin scientia meaning knowledge). Scripture tells us that if we want to know the age of the earth and the stars, we ought to ask it and it'll tell. Scripture indeed is inerrant and infallible, but if how we interpret it turns up wrong, perhaps we should abandon such interpretation.

Non literal Genesis interpretation isn't a new idea, it has existed for centuries with one of the most prominent thinker being St Augustine who said that the creation account must be allegorical and not literal.
 
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TheReasoner

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I take most of my claims from the following sources, in descending order: 1) the Bible, 2) basic doctrine, 3) my Boolean standards, and 4) suppositions [educated guesses].

Yet for all the years I have seen your posts here you fall short on most areas. Your theology is severely flawed according to all theologians I have ever broached these subjects with, they are normally devoid of logical substance or consistency and usually they directly contradict available empirical evidence.

Yet you still claim it, meaning:
A) You don't think it through
B) You don't perform due diligence, checking your sources
C) Your standards are sub-par
D) Your suppositions are not based on solid ground.
 
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OllieFranz

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The only reason that evolution seems antitheistic is because Darwinian logic dictates naturalistic explanations rather then God, all the way back to the big bang.

It is not "Darwinian logic" to assume uniformity in the laws of nature and to disregard the supernatural as part of a general explanation. It is a principle of science that goes back at least as far as Newton, as explained in an earlier post in this very thread. A post that I'm sure you read:

Science defined how exactly?

Newton defined it this way:

Rule 1: We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.

Rule 2: Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.

Rule 3: The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intensification nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.

Rule 4: In experimental philosophy we are to look upon propositions inferred by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, not withstanding any contrary hypothesis that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions.(Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica)​
Science is an examination of natural phenomenon based on the epistemology we call science. God is not examined by science and God is not outside the parameters of science. God is altogether other which is called the asiety or utter independence of God. While God is separate from the created universe God's glory and divine revelation transcends the natural world.

Actually, I was surprised when I saw this as part of one of your posts. It explains exactly why science must take the materialistic methodology that you and many of your Creationist colleagues berate adherents to the Evolutionary Model for.
 
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AV1611VET

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Science points toward the how billion year old Earth.
:scratch: ... Huh?
Science is cold and heartless, it has no aim.
Like a ghost ship, adrift on the sea of humanity, eh?
It's just a method we use to find things out (science coming from the Latin scientia meaning knowledge).
Good -- find things out, then. I'm not against finding things out.
Scripture tells us that if we want to know the age of the earth and the stars, we ought to ask it and it'll tell.
Scripture also tells us It is from God, Who cannot lie -- so Scripture isn't going to contradict Itself.
Scripture indeed is inerrant and infallible, but if how we interpret it turns up wrong, perhaps we should abandon such interpretation.
Our interpretation has to be shown wrong first, then we should abandon it.
Non literal Genesis interpretation isn't a new idea, it has existed for centuries with one of the most prominent thinker being St Augustine who said that the creation account must be allegorical and not literal.
The allegorical method was started (or made popular) by Philo of Alexandria, who attempted to unite the writings of Moses with Platonic ideas.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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I take most of my claims from the following sources, in descending order: 1) the Bible, 2) basic doctrine, 3) my Boolean standards, and 4) suppositions [educated guesses].

Reality, the real world, verifiable evidence and intellectual rigour are curiously absent from your list.
 
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TheReasoner

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Like a ghost ship, adrift on the sea of humanity, eh?
Like mathematics as an example, ethics and morality and simply carry no weight because it does not affect the fields that are studied. Ethics do not dictate if a stone you throw hits something. Physics do. That does not mean physics is evil or good. It just is
Good -- find things out, then. I'm not against finding things out.
Unless it conflicts with your opinion. Right?
Scripture also tells us It is from God, Who cannot lie -- so Scripture isn't going to contradict Itself.
So why do most christians disagree with your understanding of the bible? They also believe the bible is divinely inspired, but your conclusion as to the universe is not shared by them. They do not think God lies either. But unlike them you have a problem: Why does not God's creation back your understanding of the bible?
Our interpretation has to be shown wrong first, then we should abandon it.
And it has. But you still hold to it. Why?
The allegorical method was started (or made popular) by Philo of Alexandria, who attempted to unite the writings of Moses with Platonic ideas.
And now you read the bible in the light of another philosophical paradigm. Only thing is, why is it when you do that the conclusions you make do not fit the universe you say God created? Which is it, AV? Are you wrong, or does God lie?Those are the only two options here.
 
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KWCrazy

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Just copy pasting text will not convince me, you need hard evidence and I do not think you have any.
The logical progression of atheism.

1. The atheist requires physical evidence of God before he will believe.
2. Through the sacrifice of Christ, God extended salvation to all people who come to Him through faith. He no longer proved himself to the unsaved because proof replaces faith with knowledge.
3. Those who do not come to God through faith are damned for their rejection of the offer of salvation.
4. The atheist does not come to God through faith.
5. The atheist is damned.
 
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AV1611VET

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Reality, the real world, verifiable evidence and intellectual rigour are curiously absent from your list.

Maybe you need to take another look, eh?
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Yet for all the years I have seen your posts here you fall short on most areas. Your theology is severely flawed according to all theologians I have ever broached these subjects with, they are normally devoid of logical substance or consistency and usually they directly contradict available empirical evidence.

Yet you still claim it, meaning:
A) You don't think it through
B) You don't perform due diligence, checking your sources
C) Your standards are sub-par
D) Your suppositions are not based on solid ground.

To be honest, I don't think he's capable of recognising these flaws in himself. To do so would require a normally functioning twaddle detector on his own thought processes. The evidence in post after post indicates that he just doesn't have one.
 
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TheReasoner

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The logical progression of atheism.

1. The atheist requires physical evidence of God before he will believe.
2. Through the sacrifice of Christ, God extended salvation to all people who come to Him through faith. He no longer proved himself to the unsaved because proof replaces faith with knowledge.
3. Those who do not come to God through faith are damned for their rejection of the offer of salvation.
4. The atheist does not come to God through faith.
5. The atheist is damned.

So you expect people to believe claims that have no supporting evidence, no logical support, cannot be tested, appear false if one studies the predictions and claims given by various groups who spread that faith?

Why should we believe, KW? What separates christianity from all the other claims of the same nature? Why should we believe when logic, reason and data appear to point to your supposition regarding the validity of your faith being wrong?

Besides, according to the bible god proved his existence many times with great wonders. Wonders we tend not to spot traces of these days. And there are claims of miracles. Miracles we can't find traces of. There are claims of the fruits of the spirit that will follow believers. Again, it seems absent. In addition there are claims you make regarding science that are demonstrably false. You still make them and put them down as part of the foundation of your faith.

So you do not only demand we believe in an unprovable, unlikely god or be damned to all eternity for making the sound and sane choice - not believing a claim without any apparent basis - by a loving god who is also fair and just (this eternal damning of people who make sound choices make the 'loving, fair and just' part a contradiction in terms) you also expect us to believe something despite it being falsified (see creationism, special creation etc.) or this same loving god who is fair and just will damn us to hell.

:doh:
 
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KWCrazy

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So you expect people to believe claims that have no supporting evidence, no logical support, cannot be tested, appear false if one studies the predictions given by various groups who spread that faith?
No, God does. He reveals Himself to those who seek Him. Christ promised, "Seek and you shall find." Salvation and forgiveness are not handed out like coupons for 10% off on frozen pizza at the supermarket. Back in earlier times when we were a somewhat moral nation this was easy because you were brought up in the church and your parents were people of faith. Today we believe in nothing and deny the existence of God, which is why we think we can shoot up a bunch of school kids and get away with it.
Why should we believe, KW? What separates christianity from all the other claims of the same nature?
Not only do we have a long history of God's miracles, we have the gift of the Holy Spirit which allows us to communicate with God. It also gives us a greater understanding of the Scriptures if we take the time to actually read them not just cherry pick verses that other atheists have flagged as somehow contradictory. Nobody is born knowing the Lord. Many have found Him, though. It's a life changing experience.
Why should we believe when logic, reason and data appear to point to your supposition regarding the validity of your faith being wrong?
But it doesn't. Logic requires a first cause, and science cannot provide it. Logic would hold that if we live in a perfectly physical word that apparitions, second sight, visions, premonitions, spiritual encounters, and violations of nature could not occure. However, there are literally millions of such encounters. Some can be described as hysteria. Much cannot. A common Creator answers the questions a common progenitor cannot, including the logical absurdity of everything that exists coming from random amino acids that somehow formed the first proteins.
Besides, according to the bible god proved his existence many times with great wonders.
Yes, He did. In those days the Israelites followed God and the rest of the world were atheists or worshiped other gods. We don't have many artifacts from thousands of years ago. We can't describe how the eart was changed after the flood because we don't know how it looked BEFORE the flood. We don't even know if it was the same size. Amazingly, cities mentioned in the Bible are being found by archeologists right where they should be. Chariot wheels are found in the Red Sea. Whale skeletons are found in the desert and other inland locations. Sea fossils are found on mountain peaks. Google miracles and you will find many things that can't be explained. Google Near Death Experiences and you will find people who are absolutely convinced they were outside of their bodies. many describe things they could not possible see or visions they could not possibly explain. Ask any Christian you know what miracles or spiritual encounters they have personally experienced. I think that if you actually LOOK you'll find that a great many people have experienced such things. I watched an old telecast of a minister who was approached by a Navajo woman who could not speak English. She started talking in her native tongue and he actually began to understand her. Could that have been faked? Maybe, but in the earlier days of television to even attempt such a thing would have resulted in a blacklist and in humilitation that would destroy a person. The risk of being caught would make the stunt not worth doing. Today there are many fakes and the networks love them because they draw controversy and viewers.
There are claims of the fruits of the spirit that will follow believers. Again, it seems absent.
Perhaps in your life. There was a post on here I read last night about a person who was filled with the Holy Spirit at a prayer meeting. He said it changed his life. The people who responded posted similar experiences. Were they lying, or have you just missed it?
In addition there are claims you make regarding science that are demonstrably false.
Such as...?
I make statements based on the information I have, just like you do. One thing that I do know is that we are NOT isolated in a physical universe. I know from reading the Bible that all the earth was creted in its mature state, from the trees, to the animals, to man, and of course to the rocks. A planet has to have many resources in order to sustain a population for as long as ours has. All of these resources had to be there at the creation of the planet. Some people think that it proves age. I contend that it proves only the magesty of God and His infinite wisdom. What I post concerning my faith is supported by verses from the Scriptures. What I post about science I usually link to accredited sources. That they may hold a minority view is a given, but that doesn't invalidate their findings either. Science is the study of the physical world around us. It cannot account for or discount the influence of the supernatural.
So you do not only demand we believe in an unprovable, unlikely god or be damned to all eternity for making the sound and sane choice
I make no such demands. I simply re-state what the Lord said about the matter. Take it up with Him if you have the strength of your convictions. However, how sound and sane can it be to deny that there are things that happen in this word that can't be explained by science? We have a spirit. It's an electromagnetic field found in the living and not in the dead. Scientifically, it's created by the flow of energy throughout the nervous system. When life ends, those processes stop and the field ceases to exist. Spiritually, that field is who we really are; a separate spiritual entity merely contained for time in a physical body. This energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed in form. It is our immortal soul and it will live forever somewhere.

The evidence of the Lord is all around us. The sane man looks at the evidence and makes his conclusions based on what he sees as well as what he feels. Is it logical to ignore the first hand witness of millions of people who have experience the presence of God? Don't cloak your disbelief in logic. The logial thinker doesn't close his eyes to the possibility there there is more to this existence than what can be physically proven.
you also expect us to believe something despite it being falsified (see creationism, special creation etc.)
Falsified by whom? For whom? I've never seen any scientific evidence yet that can exclude a six day creation. God exists outside of science. He can no more be disproved than proved.
 
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Split Rock

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Our interpretation has to be shown wrong first, then we should abandon it.

And it has. But you still hold to it. Why?

I have to agree with reasoner on this point. Embedded Age makes certain testable predictions (which I applaud, btw.). These predictions are found to be wrong (specifcally that the record of the earth provides no more than 6,100 years of history). Yet, you insist that E.A. makes no testable predictions and refuse to acknowledge that these predictions fail.
 
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super animator

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The Pentateuch has been attributed to Moses by Jewish and Christian scholars throughout it's history.
appeal to tradition much mark?

“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” (John 5:45-47)​
As a Christian who do you think I'm going to believe, you or Jesus Christ?
Stating that Moses did not wrote genesis does not equate to accusing Moses. I'm accusing YOUR statement that he did wrote genesis. Big difference there.

Also implying that I'm not a christian is against the forums rules.
 
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verysincere

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Today we believe in nothing and deny the existence of God, which is why we think we can shoot up a bunch of school kids and get away with it.

Who is the "we"? Please identify (even just one name!) someone who thinks "we can shoot up a bunch of school kids and get away with it". [You can't. WE know that, don't we?!]

Secondly, explain how you determined that the denial of the existence of God accounted for the killing of "school kids".

In the Newton, Connecticut horror, 28 died. But the worst "school kid" tragedy in American history was the Bath Township, Michigan school massacre of 1927 where the death toll was a devastating 45 dead. Was that bloodbath caused by denial of the existence of God?
 
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AV1611VET

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I have to agree with reasoner on this point. Embedded Age makes certain testable predictions (which I applaud, btw.). These predictions are found to be wrong (specifcally that the record of the earth provides no more than 6,100 years of history). Yet, you insist that E.A. makes no testable predictions and refuse to acknowledge that these predictions fail.
That's because:

1. You can't see what you're testing. You assume you are looking at n-years of history, but that is something only God can do.

2. You assume uniformitarianism, when in fact, the Bible espouses catastrophism.
 
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verysincere

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....we have the gift of the Holy Spirit which allows us to communicate with God. It also gives us a greater understanding of the Scriptures if we take the time to actually read them not just cherry pick verses that other atheists have flagged as somehow contradictory.

Unfortunately, many Christians have misunderstood and misapplied this concept. The scriptures promise that that Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the Gospel to those who seek God. ("Seek and ye shall find.") But the Bible does NOT promise that the believer has (a) automatically superior insights into scripture and science topics, and (b) will be spared the human foibles of wrong conclusions and even illogical, unbiblical, and even delusional thinking. Even the most sincere, Bible-affirming, Christ-follower has no reason to assume his/her conclusions about the Bible or related topics are automatically superior to those of anyone else. And that's why a sound knowledge and important conclusions about the Hebrew exegesis of Genesis 1, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, The Theory of Evolution, and the meaning of any particular New Testament pericope depend upon INVESTIGATION AND STUDY and not simply a prayer or a spiritual transformation in general. (Accordingly, various foolish ideas which Christians have wrongly attributed as "spiritual insights" into the scriptures should NOT be blamed on the Holy Spirit, the Bible, or ANYTHING but the naive immaturity of the person pontificating the nonsense.)

So yes, the Bible states that the Holy Spirit leads the repentant to an understanding of the Gospel. But both believers and non-believers must ultimately blame our recurrent foolishness on our fallibility and gullibility under the human condition. Even the most sincere and devout Christian is not vaccinated from the mallady of ignorance when we fail to educate ourselves on the evidence---both the biblical evidence and the evidence from creation itself. (And that helps explain why so many Christians continue to attribute to Satan the very wonders which they SHOULD be assigning to God himself.) And Christians who presume to rebuke and "tutor" scientists on their fields of study would do well to emulate the humility of Christ. We as believers have no automatic and Biblical basis for assuming that we are the world's tutors in every field of inquiry outside of the Great Commission's call to "make disciples" of Jesus Christ.
 
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Of course it's not religion, mythology is something that happens when you lose your religion.

Mythology is a part of religion. Take the creation mythology in Genesis as an example.

Back to begging the question of proof, it's a nice change from the ad hominems.

No, I am pointing to the facts while you are ignoring them.

Now for the equivocation, science isn't synonymous with the a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic means.

Universal common descent is a product of the scientific method just as all theories are. Universal common descent is no different than the conclusion that germs cause disease or that matter is made up of atoms.

I have yet to see a Creationist that was opposed to Mendelian genetics for one simple reason, Creationism is not opposed to science or evolutionary biology in the proper sense of those terms. They are opposed to Darwinism pure and simple. The only thing being repeated is your repertoire of fallacious logic.

And yet you reject the Mendelian genetics of ERV's demonstrating that humans and chimps share a common ancestor.

Not once have I seen a theistic evolutionist willing to take a stand on the Scriptures. Instead they want to demean and ostracize anyone who dares affirm the foundational doctrine of Creation.

And here you are demeaning and ostracizing theistic evolutionists.

Biology is about living systems, pure and simple.

Yes, both past and present. Why do all animals with fur have three middle ear bones? To answer that question about living systems you have to understand the history of their evolutionary lineages. The present living systems are contingent on their past evolutionary histories.

Want to determine the function of a protein from it's sequence? Guess what you can use? You can use Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships (SIFTER). It uses the evolutionary history of a phylogeny to determine protein function, and it does so with extreme accuracy:

We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5'-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature.
Protein molecular function prediction by Ba... [PLoS Comput Biol. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
The evolutionary histories of species are extremely important in understanding and researching the function of living systems. It is vital to the understanding of biology.

Those nested hierarchies are zoological categories largely organized for convenience.

Then show me a mammal that that could also be nested with birds.

The nested hierarchies are facts, not conveniences.

One of the clearest indications of bias being the complete absence of Chimpanzee ancestors even though the vast majority of our supposed ancestors had Chimpanzee size brains, particularly the Homo habilis ones.

Bias? How is that bias? Also, we have hominids that have brain sizes in between chimps and humans. They are transitional.

Genomics has demonstrated that the human genome is far more divergent then was predicted or could be expected.

You have never supported this with evidence. All you have is incredulity.

Our ancestors would have had neither the time nor the means to have tripled the cranial capacity, virtually overnight, about 2 million years ago.

And if you found a 50 year old human pygmy skull and compared it to a modern european you would claim that modern human brain size has doubled in 50 years. We already know how you like to cherry pick the data.

Which leads me to a very serious question, if we are so much alike in our respective genomes why do so many evolutionists lie about the divergence between the Chimpanzee and Human genomes?

They don't lie about it. It is discussed extensively in the chimp genome paper.

Your arguments are spiraling into smaller and smaller circles. If you want substantive answers ask real questions.

If you want to be taken seriously, deal with the facts and don't ignore them.


Science defined how exactly?

As defined by the scientific method:

Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
Steps of the Scientific Method


Science is an examination of natural phenomenon based on the epistemology we call science. God is not examined by science and God is not outside the parameters of science. God is altogether other which is called the asiety or utter independence of God. While God is separate from the created universe God's glory and divine revelation transcends the natural world.

That is only if you define God so that God is indistinguishable from a god who does not exist. If God acts on nature and changes nature then God can be a part of science.
 
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