- Jul 12, 2003
- 4,011
- 814
- 83
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Politics
- UK-Labour
Luther entertained the idea of predestination aswell.
Indeed. Hence the paradox.
Upvote
0
Luther entertained the idea of predestination aswell.
We are simply not justified by our works. When God saves us, he adopts us and gives us a promise. We do not believe our salvation is the result of our faithfulness, since faith itself is a gift. Our salvation is the result of the merits or works of Christ alone.
My assertion is that if there is just one specific unconfessed sin in your heart, then you cannot guarantee that God will fellowship with you or listen to your prayers. "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Psalm 66:18). Also, on the day of judgment there won't be a "we", there will be just you, and you might have difficulty answering God's question, "Why did you not confess and discuss that specific sin with Me? Why did you keep it in your heart?"
I totally agree.Whilst I admire your obvious hatred of sin, and willingness to excercise the gift of repentance, I don't believe your statement makes room enough for the sheer broadness and vastness of human sinfulness. Yes it's a good thing for us to be mindful of those times we have knowingly transgressed the commands of our God, and of course we should confess those things and appeal for forgiveness on account of the sacrifice of Christ for us. However if that is solely how we define sin, then in my opinion that is a very blinkered view of it.
We can sin against God in thought, word and deed. There are sins of commission (doing the things we shouldn't), and sins of omission (not doing the things we should). We can do seemingly righteous works from unrighteous motives, which is an offense to God. We can fail to give thanksgiving where thanksgiving is due, praise where praise is due etc.. We can pray with fear and unbelief in our hearts mixed in with faith. Daily we fail to fear, love and trust God with all our heart, soul and mind. And daily we transgress His command by failing to love our neighbour as ourself. And what is more, as the book of James instructs us; to break the least command of God's Law is to break it all.
We can guarantee that God will fellowship with us and listen to our prayers, but solely on account of the sacrifice Christ made on behalf of sinners. It is His faithfulness, His righteousness, and His holiness that is credited to us as our own, and our sins and transgressions that are credited as His own upon the Cross. And it is on account of this divine exchange that has taken place that we approach God, not as servants seeking to be made right with Him, but as His children and rightful co-heirs with Christ.
It seems to me that the Calvinist conception of God is not a personal God at all, but rather an impersonal, mechanistic, force.The Calvinist/ Reformed system is attractive to some because it looks like an elegant, almost clockwork design. It seems to have a clear, unambiguous answer to most questions. This is very comforting if we are looking for a religion of mathematical formulae rather than the living God. This is an outgrowth of Renaissance humanism and Neoplatonism. Lutheranism of course has its influence from this current too but does not allow it to override the Gospel.
It's funny, but a lot of the Lutherans I run into in Facebook Lutheran groups seem to think Lutheranism is Calvinism plus the Real Presence. This despite the fact that half the Book of Concord was spent refuting the Calvinists. They spend most of their time ripping Arminians whom they absolutely despise.
In a semi-related note, I've seen a bunch Lutherans complaining loudly about Evangelicals being "heart Christians" instead of "head Christians". Are they even aware that Martin Luther was absolutely contemptuous of the Scholastics who tried to intellectualize Christianity?The irony in that is that Arminianism is, in a way, just another flavor of the Reformed tradition.
-CryptoLutheran
In a semi-related note, I've seen a bunch Lutherans complaining loudly about Evangelicals being "heart Christians" instead of "head Christians". Are they even aware that Martin Luther was absolutely contemptuous of the Scholastics who tried to intellectualize Christianity?
I think it is a reaction to many Evangelicals taking the complete extreme from what Luther was speaking about. There really can be a happy medium for "the head and the heart" (also the name of a good band )
As a member of the Reformed tradition, I can tell you that there are lots of complexities hiding in this statement.In Calvinism, the answer is simple: Christians don't fall away. That doesn't mean Calvinists are correct, of course, but it is very clear.
Hello,
I've been a Christian for nearly a decade, but I haven't been able to settle on a denomination. I think the two denominations that come the closest to the teachings of the Apostles are Lutheranism and Calvinism, but there are a few issues that I have yet to be able to settle. One is related to "falling away."
I know Lutherans believe people can come to a truly justifying faith but then fall away later on. In some cases, these people never come back to faith and die in unbelief.
My question is: According to Lutheran theology, why do Christians fall away?
This is one of my biggest issues with Lutheranism. If Christians can fall away, there must be some reason for it, but all the reasons I can think of (environment, biological, etc.) can all be traced back to God's initial creative act. Consider Adam and Eve, for example. They chose to reject God, but God is the one who created them and He did so with perfect foreknowledge. Doesn't that mean God created Adam and Eve in such a way that he knew they would fall away, and thus desire it? The same could be said of every single Christian who has ever lived. That would mean those who fall away do so because God desires them to fall away, which violates specific passages of scripture that state clearly God does NOT desire Christians to fall away.
In Calvinism, the answer is simple: Christians don't fall away. That doesn't mean Calvinists are correct, of course, but it is very clear.
Any guidance on this issue would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!
Two things, if I may....
1. The problem with the Calvinist position is: A) It's unbiblical. B) it means that no one - EVER - REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING - can know if they are saved. I'm more than willing to explain both but such is not your question here.
2. Lutherans do not answer the question you ask. ONLY that such is not God's will or act. We'd also be apt to say it's not because of sin (if it were, no one would remain in faith for all sin). Again, I'll explain if you desire.
THIS is how my theology teacher taught us on this (sorry, it's not very systematic, lol)
Let's say Bob, a Christian, commits a specific sin. And he is sorry. And he repents in faith. Does God forgive him? Of course, it is His promise and heart. Next day, the same sin is committed and the same repentance happens. Does God forgive Bob? Of course, it is His promise and heart.
This continues for 10 zillion days. The sin continues as before, the ritual of repentance continues as before. And does God forgive? Yup, 70 times 7. It is His promise. It is His heart. BUT here's the deal.... likely, Bob is turning all this into a game... repentance has come to mean permission to sin and not feel guilty about out and not worry about his relationship to God and eternity. BUT does God forgive him? Ahha.... it is His promise. 70 times 7. Bob/s game has two eventual likely consequences: God's heart is breaking (with the intentional PLAYING with His grace and Jesus' blood).... and Bob is slowly wrecking his faith. Eventually, Bob is not being repentant at all..... and not really looking to Jesus as His Savior. He is just playing his game. Bob has abandoned the faith.... abandoned Jesus.... abandoned God. Did God withdraw from Bob? NO! Did God's mercy run out? NO! Did Bob's sin cause him to loose faith? NO! Bob played with God's grace.... and in the process, eventually wrecked his faith. Bob has only Bob to blame. BUT even here..... God heart longs for Bob to return, the Holy Spirit is working to grant faith to him again! Even his game can be forgiven.
I hope that helps.
- Josiah
.
Hello,
I've been a Christian for nearly a decade, but I haven't been able to settle on a denomination. I think the two denominations that come the closest to the teachings of the Apostles are Lutheranism and Calvinism, but there are a few issues that I have yet to be able to settle. One is related to "falling away."
I know Lutherans believe people can come to a truly justifying faith but then fall away later on. In some cases, these people never come back to faith and die in unbelief.
My question is: According to Lutheran theology, why do Christians fall away?
This is one of my biggest issues with Lutheranism. If Christians can fall away, there must be some reason for it, but all the reasons I can think of (environment, biological, etc.) can all be traced back to God's initial creative act. Consider Adam and Eve, for example. They chose to reject God, but God is the one who created them and He did so with perfect foreknowledge. Doesn't that mean God created Adam and Eve in such a way that he knew they would fall away, and thus desire it? The same could be said of every single Christian who has ever lived. That would mean those who fall away do so because God desires them to fall away, which violates specific passages of scripture that state clearly God does NOT desire Christians to fall away.
In Calvinism, the answer is simple: Christians don't fall away. That doesn't mean Calvinists are correct, of course, but it is very clear.
Any guidance on this issue would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!