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Shoot I forgot to reply directly. Basically I wanted to ask if you have experienced that peace about a verse and later changed your mind about its meaning and also why do you think God allows Satan to sow confusion when God also is said not to be the author of confusion?I have A LOT i want to say. I am doing my best to organize this correctly and not confuse you or get to far ahead or into things as many of the things I am giving you takes a lot of studying of scripture and praying. Please ask me to clarify at any time or say that you're confused so I can try to make things clear as possible.
I will clearly state on scripture that i am still praying about and seeking understanding. I want to be 100% sure and not 90% sure. So if i am only 90% sure of something, I will mention in some way that I am still studying this meaning and verse. I am not claiming I have 100% knowledge of the scripture. If I am not mistaken, there are still things that are hidden in the Bible that are just now being revealed and more to come at the right time. (Pertaining to the end of days) I am 25 years old and the Lord God still has much to teach me. However, He has blessed me greatly and He has given me a good bit of understanding of scripture. This may sound strange to you, but in my heart i feel a sense of peace about a verse and teaching when i come to its understanding. When i come to a teaching or verse that I have "could" mean this and this I will state it as such, give the interpretation argument from the countering views and then do my best to explain WHY i believe one view over another. However, If I do not state to the person, even in this forum, at least two opposing arguments for it's meaning, and why i believe one way, then i believe i have the 100% truth of that verse or teaching.
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First, we must understand your freewill gives you two main choices. What does this mean? You have two choices and only two choices. You are for God (Jesus) or you are for satan (rebelling against God). There is no in-between, there are no other gods (demons or myths) that can save you from hell, there is no other salvation except through Christ. You have two choices to choose from. Destruction or Life. (satan or Christ Jesus).
Getting on the topic of satan can lead to another complicated and indepth discussion. So i dont want to get too far off on this. I wish I could teach you everything right now, but I have so much i need to say now, I'm already overwhelmed. lol This is what we know of satan and good reason why we have so much division among our brothers.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
From here, you see that Satan is infiltrating the church. Even way back in the day. He's had hundreds of years of planting false seeds, no matter how small, to weaken the churches position and it has worked. Not because we couldn't stop it, but because we didn't obey the word of God and do as instructed. We didn't listen to the Holy Spirit. However, that Holy Spirit is still ministering if you will listen, if you will seek God. You can be a beacon of truth to the church and those around you and not caught up in tradition, denominations, religion, but caught up in the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is his plan. Look at the division among the church over small things. Look at the denominations today. What satan planned was for division to occur. If division occurred, that would limit the testimony of the church, goals, and resources. Take yourself for example. Look what we've done by allowing the church to be split, we've given a bad example to unbelievers and it hurts my heart deeply to see what this division has done. It is confusing to none believers. Satan's planned worked, at least in part. Now, we need more Christians standing up for what it is right, preaching to believers, teaching them. Their denomination is the Lord Jesus Christ, not pentecostal, not baptist, not Lutheran.
There's much more detail to this I am leaving out, and feel free to ask. But the largest division occurred during the protestant reformation. The actions and sins of the Catholic Church caused many believers to split off into Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and Anglican. The persecution from the Catholic (universal) church, that Satan penetrated during those times caused division that, in my opinion, had to have happened as the Catholic church during those times were evil. So we are beginning to see Satan's plan in a way. Divide and conquer which he cannot conquer the church. So divide and harass.
So the divisions of the church are because of deception that christian men allowed. You have a choice, even as a Christian, to listen to the holy spirit or not. Though, God will only allow satan to do so much (He is restrained by the Holy Spirit and does the restraining through Christians). So sin and Lawlessness are restrained by the faithful, but as you see, sin still exists.
I still have A LOT to add, but i'll stop here to allow you to read and ask any questions. I may not have answered your question the way you wanted just yet as there's a lot to try and teach you before i can even really answer it.
Do you think that like in the telephone analogy the truth was only given once a long time ago and that we are all just passing it along multiplying the errors? Or do you belive that there is a way god steps into this process and clarifies the meaning for new generations, teaching them what the actual truth of the matter is?short answer here--yes, there is an actual truth which is very easily provable via the old schoolyard game called "telephone".
two teams of people are formed as the 'receivers".
Then the person that is 'it' whispers a message in the person's ear who is first in each line. that person then whispers to the next person in their line what they heard, etc.
when the end of the line is reached, the last person says the message that they heard out loud.
and then the original message is revealed.
there are 2 morals to the story;
1. be careful how you hear.
2. the further one is away from the original message, the greater the
possibility of error.
and those are the real reasons that there is so much variation in the church, as was proved even in Jesus' time between what He taught and what the scribes, Pharisees, and Saducees believed.
So the holy Spirit whispers to those who want to listen but some portion of those still don't hear?very easy.
The Holy Spirit does indeed whisper the same thing into every person's ear who willl listen.
the key is how do they hear what the Holy Spirit says?
is there garbage (sin) in their lives that gets mixed into the message of the Holy Spirit, or are their lives a clean conduit which can then carry that message freely and deliver it unspoiled and in it's original form to the next person.
That's really interesting, so to pick an example when God says it is sin to lie he doesn't mean that it is actually sinful to lie, he means that it might be sinful for some people at some times? Or if one church says yes women can be our head pastor and the one down the road say they can't, God is speaking directly into the lives of each individual congregants and telling them their interpretation of that injunction is correct? Am I understanding you properly or am I off the mark here?Very simple. It's called "The Living Word" for a reason. The Bible is not just a dead collection of words printed out in ink on a page. They are a personal spiritual guide that can only be understood when read through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The differences in interpretation are to be expected. The Bible can't produce the same interpretations to everyone. This is a design, not a bug! God made all of us different, and He reaches us in different ways and speaks to us in different ways.
The error is that many humans are so full of pride that they think that if they personally come to a belief, then that interpretation of the verse is the *only* viable one, and anyone who is led by God to see something else, is in fact an evil heretic.
This is the mark of someone who is not humbly following God.
God moves us all in different ways. We have so many different denominations because God designed it that way. There is no "one size fits all". God has a custom message, just for you. He does for everyone.
Just as the print of the finger you use to hold the Bible in place is one of a kind, so too is the spiritual fingerprint you use to trace over God's Word.
Do you think that God has a view on these things, an objective truth that we are correctly discerning (or not) or is it up to us to muddle along as best we can?Christian disagree mainly because at the end of the day we are imperfect Human Beings.
I dislike the extreme side of Christianity and i don't like the way the bible is often used to oppress women and control people. i have been shocked over the years at how bits of scripture can be twisted to fit just about anything.
I am what you would call a common sense Christian and I try and stay clear of all the religious dogma.
I have heard this explanation before. However, we forget. Abraham would have received this history third hand.Do you think that like in the telephone analogy the truth was only given once a long time ago and that we are all just passing it along multiplying the errors? Or do you belive that there is a way god steps into this process and clarifies the meaning for new generations, teaching them what the actual truth of the matter is?
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Regarding the first part, have you ever felt a peace of understanding about a verse and then later (maybe even years later) been exposed to a new perspective on that verse and changed your mind on its meaning?
Why do you think God allows Satan to sow confusion when he also says that he is not the author of confusion?
Also just a point of clarification you seemed to ay that this is specifically the fault of Christian men, did you mean Christians in general?
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Considering that I will give an account for every idle word I want to be careful how I answer you. I agree with ignotum per ignotius . Somewhere Paul said that there must needs be heresies...i believe this is potentially God's way of sifting the wheat from the chaff. The scripture also says that evil men will wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. ( This is to "believers" since unbelievers are doing the things that unbelievers are supposed to be doing which is choosing the things of this world. ) The bible predicts a great falling away ...which is actually apostasy ..not falling away from religion but from truth. So I believe the things you are observing have been put in place in order to fulfill prophecy and to demonstrate the validity of His Word. Jesus said that if any man follow me, let him first count the cost so should you become a lamb of God by HIS grace, it will be a journey and will cost you much. Without faith, it is impossible to please God because you must believe that HE is and HE is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him. As an atheist but a seeker , I am not sure where this leaves you?Shoot I forgot to reply directly. Basically I wanted to ask if you have experienced that peace about a verse and later changed your mind about its meaning and also why do you think God allows Satan to sow confusion when God also is said not to be the author of confusion?
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So for your tradition the two requirements are access to the Holy Spirit and a clean life of repentance. Is that correct?From the point of view of the Orthodox Church, the only way someone is able to correctly understand the Scriptures is if they have acquired godly stillness, purification of the heart from passions, and illumination of the mind. One cannot be a pure vessel for the Holy Spirit if one does not live a life of prayer and repentance and is prone to disordered passions such as lust, greed and anger.
While this is mostly off topic, I also appreciate the time and effort you clearly put into your post, thank you.I guess it has already been said that Christians are human and thus are fallible. This is true.
Watch a movie or read a book that other people have read and you will get many different critiques of the story and the way it was presented.
My advice, here, is to forget about all the theological arguments.
When we come to being a true believer, we must come as children, even babies. New believers need the basic milk of the scriptures. You don't feed a baby a T-bone steak and mug of beer.
So, without any attempt at being condescending or insulting or offensive in any way, you should take things one step at at time.
Let's start with the basic premise of the Gospel. You are, as everyone else on this earth, a sinner. Thus, you, like every other human, cannot enter an eternal life in the presence of God or Jesus.
So, before you dig into the 8 course dinner, lets get to the milk.
If you believe you are a sinner and need to be forgiven and are sorry for these sins. The first step is to admit it to Christ, ask for forgiveness and turn your life, your heart and attitude to a new direction.
After this, you will slowly grow and thirst for more knowledge and eventually be able to tear of a tough piece of steak and chew on it with the rest of them.
Many of the topics, so fearcefully argued about, here, are of no real consequence to the salvation and eternal destination of the participants.
So, before you get into the meat, start with the milk.
So what relationship does scripture have to truth in your view?It's fairly simple really; Jesus established a church for the purpose of receiving, preserving, and spreading the truth, the faith. Scripture was never intended to serve as a catechism.
Why do you think the Holy Spirit allows us to be wrong about spiritual matters, why do you think God allows such confusion? Is there a way he could clear it up, could the holy Spirit clarify so that all true believers would understand?Athee
The same question has been in my head for years. Yes allot took place 2000 years ago and to discuss scholars have to learn from a teacher to interpret another language. Although the teacher may be bias and pass this on, in the end if we were all guided by The Holy Spirit at least the wise would agree? So my only thought is we allow our own thoughts & ungodly steer us wrong at least on one teaching or another?
There has been a bit of head scratchingAthée,
As you can tell from the differences in opinion in the replies that have been given in this thread it is incredibly difficult to say who is led by the spirit and who is not. The Catholics say they are the true church. The Protestants disagree. The Baptists say they are the true church. It is all ridiculous and from the outside looking in I can see why you would be scratching your head because if Christians are truly led by the spirit they we should all be on the same page. But we are not. And we never will be until He returns.
One thing most all of us DO agree on is that Christ came down from heaven and was born as a man. Lived a sinless life and was innocent. Was crucified as the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Was resurrected and ascending back to heaven and will come back to us again. The belief in these basics is the foundation for all of Christianity. This is what the spirit leads us all to believe.
Anything beyond that which causes disagreement in my opinion is not spirit led. It is all man led.
God bless you in your search.
Way to upend the apple cart my friend! How do you think people have misread the passages that usually get cited to supper this notion that the holy Spirit illuminates scripture for the believing reader?How about this for an answer: The Bible doesn't actually, nor specifically, teach this idea that many Christians hang onto ... (i.e. "when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.")
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
I think we are seeing similar things and hopefully the discussion in the thread is providing interesting food for thought.That's an excellent question and one I've asked more than once.
The simplest answer I got from a Pastor at a church I used to attend was "sin". Apparently, our sinful nature gets in the way of the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
However, like you, I believe if that were the case, then there should still be widespread agreement among mature Christians, and there isn't. Even within a single church, I've found not all people agree on every single theological detail.
A lot of tradition has crept into Christianity since its inception that has tended to obscure the original meaning and intent of the Bible authors. One of the reasons that Christians generally disagree is because those traditions tend to get in the way, and we've elevated them from interpretations to Biblical truth.
I used to fight the "religious wars," both online and face-to-face and it finally wore me down. Instead, I try to find the commonality between me and my brothers and sisters in Christ, and when I can't find that or the differences are too great to overcome, I try to keep my mouth shut.
Do you think it is possible that believers who open their bibles and ask the Spirit to illuminate them, will end up disagreeing?When trying to understand the Bible if you understand the history it will help. The Old Testament was written for us, but not too us. It was written strictly for the Jews and their works. The New Testament was written for us and is the period of Grace. When Jesus died on the cross, He completed the period of works as Jesus died for all our sins and ushered in the period of Grace.
This is where the Holy Spirit enters in - all the prophets and writers of the Scriptures in the New Testament were all led by the Holy Spirit. When you become a Child of God, the Holy Spirit dwells within you. That does not mean you will hear a voice to guide you - it is a heart thing. As you read the Scriptures they will become more and more alive to you. You can see our future lined out as the Bible opens up and the things that are happening today are all outlined in Scripture. We are closing into 'the end of the ages' and nothing more needs to happen before the Rapture of the church. Just open your Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you through it - it is the Living Word and we are living it just as it says.
I think that is a fair comment. In that analogy it seems like you are saying that even if a believer has the holy Spirit teaching them the truth if the matter they simply won't be able to overcome their conditioning. Is that correct?I think you're forgetting that while God is infallible, humans are conditioned by society since in the womb.
If every day of your life everyone around you tells you the sky is green and that green looks like the sky, and then you meet someone who says "the sky is blue" you simply wont accept it - if someone asks you the colour of the sky you will tell them as you've been taught forever
a bit of a silly example, but people can argue simply because of social conditioning in churches, books they read or simply through not having studied enough.
Can you please expand on this a bit? Are you referring to Disciple37's comment that priests did not absolve sin?now contrast that reason with the death of the first martyr, Stephen, and see how your reasoning holds up.
That is an interesting observation but I think perhaps one that is beat suited to a different thread as it doesn't really bear on the question of disagreement among Christians over scripture.
Thanks for your contributions though
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