Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Aryeh]

The parent analogy is an interesting one ( I have 3 myself - great fun to make but a lot of work after that! ... and well worth the work and love they require too ). As a father it seems to me that if my children were fighting among each other one saying the earth is a sphere, one saying it is flat and the other saying we are floating on A'tuin the giant turtle through space that I would rather step in and tell the the truth (the turtle obviously ) rather than see them create a rift that would last a life time. Why do you think God seems to choose otherwise based on what you wrote?

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Because in the grand scheme of things, arguments like the geometry of the earth are foolish if they occupy so much thought that people are willing to fight against each other.

The thought is, at least, becomes an idol, and God will distance Himself from idol worshippers. He will, again, allow them to go all the way through the consequences of their actions unless they wise up and come to their senses, and Him.

When you are overseeing a finely-tuned universe created by hand, and the point of your plans for humans is salvation, obedience and faith, then everything else is foolishness.

 

[Athée]

I think that when you get into really intricate theology, that the fact that we are incapable to think like God, takes over.

We know so very little about the dimension of the heavens, and their workings, it is arrogant, in many cases to, as mortal men, say that we know for sure, on some issues.

So why do you think God included all these things to fight over. Why not give us the basics that we could understand and unite on?

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[Athée]

I don't think it really matters, does it? Once you have established that the most important possession that you have is your soul and the most important thing you can do is ensure that it will have eternal life in glory compared to Hell, the rest becomes fluff, chatter and banter.

I could really care less if the earth is flat, round, square and flat... Or, that Satan and Lucifer are different entities or the same one... Or that the "sons of God" in Genesis are fallen angels or some strange lineage of other humans... Or if the earth stopped spinning or the moon and sun stopped circling the earth... Or if "once saved, always saved" is true or false.

I have been accepted into the family of Christ. I have accepted His gift of salvation. I strive, every day to not sin or sin less. I use Christ as my compass for every decision I make. I am assured that when I die, or when He comes again, I will be with Him and I will know no more pain or sorrow...

The rest..........clanging symbols, noise and babble.

I read the Bible and K.I.S.S.... or keep it simple stupid.

I am an intelligent enough man to know that I don't know everything. I stand on the Rock of ages... Christ and His cleansing blood...

What else do I need to worry about?

Do the contents of those core beliefs matter? If they do then it matters who decides what they are doesn't it?

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[Athée]

Because in the grand scheme of things, arguments like the geometry of the earth are foolish if they occupy so much thought that people are willing to fight against each other.

The thought is, at least, becomes an idol, and God will distance Himself from idol worshippers. He will, again, allow them to go all the way through the consequences of their actions unless they wise up and come to their senses, and Him.

When you are overseeing a finely-tuned universe created by hand, and the point of your plans for humans is salvation, obedience and faith, then everything else is foolishness.

So the geometry was just an example what we are actually discussing is theology. Does theology matter?

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[JacksBratt]

So why do you think God included all these things to fight over. Why not give us the basics that we could understand and unite on?

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God didn't include these things to fight over anymore than the parents gave the kids two pieces of cake to fight over.

God presented His word. Men and women of education can debate all the want. We need to look at the bigger picture.

It matters little that people argue over. Take the creation of the earth. It matters little if you disagree with how long ago or how many days it was...the fact is God created it. God created us in His image.

We have purpose. We are a deliberate creation of God.

Take the Rapture. Pre trib, Post trib, mid trib..... someone is right. Two are wrong. Fact is, He is going to come for us. We are His bride. We will be with Him forever....

I could go on. However, none of this matters to anyone, if they don't believe in God, Christ and the gift of salvation, Heaven, Hell or angels and fallen angels.

If you don't believe, investigating things that Christians argue over is not going to help ya.

 

[JacksBratt]

Do the contents of those core beliefs matter? If they do then it matters who decides what they are doesn't it?

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The core beliefs are what matters. If you don't believe the gospel, that Christ died for you and me, what does it matter about the Rapture, the creation of the universe, Nephilime and Giants, ... none of it matters. The whole Bible, boiled down is Man is sinful, Christ will save those who believe. Without that, who cares what other issue you are debating.

 

[Aryeh]

So the geometry was just an example what we are actually discussing is theology. Does theology matter?

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Theology can also become an idol. Some of the Pharisees made an idol of theology, instead of focusing on God. They usually ended up opponents of God's people.

If theology takes away from the main purpose of life - to love, obey and respect God - even so much that the point of salvation is not focal, then it becomes foolishness.

Let the fools argue amongst themselves.

 

[timewerx]

If Jesus was the plan from before the universe began perhaps sin might be a normative part of the plan? In any event why do you think that God allows such division and confusion?
Also I didn't read the by line at first but I knew it was you as soon as I read the word normative (ya clear thinking show off! )
Thanks again for a great post.

It is part of the plan.

Matthew 10:35-36
For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…

Not everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved - Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[OzSpen]

So why do you think God included all these things to fight over. Why not give us the basics that we could understand and unite on?

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Athee,

I don't know which country you live in. I'm an Aussie. I cannot imagine a comprehensive history of Australia that would not cause a good number of people to have the heebie jeebies over specifics. They may have special interests and know details not available to the person(s) who wrote the history.

In the Bible, we have detailed history of the Israelites that included some controversial issues (e.g. creation out of nothing, worldwide flood, slaughter of inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah, miracles, etc). Expect disagreement when significant events take place. We are sinful human beings doing the interpretation. When we become Christian those sinful urges are controlled but not eliminated.

Then we come to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Those are humongous events with eternal consequences. Expect disagreements from non-believers and believers alike.

With the epistles of the NT, a lack of knowledge or in-depth knowledge of the original languages and theological issues can lead to controversy.

If you want to hear contemporary controversy, take a listen to a call-in talk-back radio show as I do regularly. Some people can almost get to fist-a-cuffs on the air.

Understanding foreign languages and translating correctly into English comes with challenges. I read and have taught NT Greek.

Just because people fight over theology should give you good reason to know why that is so. Look at the history of the Arminian-Calvinist controversy, gifts of the Spirit, creationism, Trinitarianism, etc debates.

This is the truth of the matter: 'As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another' (Proverbs 27:17 NIV). Are you ready to be sharpened? You already have asked some healthy and controversial questions. I'll enjoy interacting with you as time permits. You'll have to watch my Aussie accent and spelling.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Do the contents of those core beliefs matter? If they do then it matters who decides what they are doesn't it?

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That's not NT thinking. This is how Acts 17:11 (NIV) puts it: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true'.

When Paul was in Berea he made it clear that the people who were to examine the content of his teaching (surely core beliefs come in here) were ordinary listeners (Berean Jews) whose responsibility it was to compare what Paul preached with the OT Scriptures (they were the only Scriptures available in the 1st century).

Today, it is the responsibility of those who sit in the pews, listen to radio, TV and Internet messages, and compare what the preacher teaches with the Scriptures. That's my biblical responsibility.

It is not left up to some church hierarchy to do that but to ordinary, everyday Christians.

Oz

 

[Lazarus Short]

As an ex-atheist, I may be particularly well suited to answer your question.

The Spirit is not something that can be dealt with by intellect. Jesus told His hearers that the wind (same word as "spirit") - "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." [John 3:8 KJV]

What does that mean? It means that we are carried and instructed by this wind/spirit, but we cannot really know HOW it operates in us, but once it begins to operate, we know it is there.

This is how it worked for me - my father had been praying for me for years, but I did not know it until the day I was baptized. When he did some personal repenting, things began to happen in my life. These things eventually led me to become a Christian, though I cannot explain exactly how. I can say that certain attitudes and ways of thinking fell away from me. One notable thing was music - I had been a big fan of hard rock and even heavy metal. A few months after I became a Christian, I found that the music I used to love I no longer loved. After a while, I purged my LP collection with an awl, even some collector's items. More importantly, the Bible began to make sense, when before, it made no sense to me, though I was literate and well-read. I really would not care to be my pre-Christian self again.

 

[com7fy8]

I am still wondering how we determine these right beliefs

My experience is that there are things more easy to determine, because they are stated in plain words and/or various other scriptures fit with them.

One example, I personally understand, is that the Bible clearly says we become saved by trusting in Jesus for all our Heavenly Father desires with us > Ephesians 1:12. But there are people who insist that one must say a prayer or get baptized and/or other things. So, then is when you can have a lot of arguing and accusing, back and forth. But if we consider all it means to trust, this goes way beyond just copy-catting what others tell people to say and do.

If Jesus was the plan from before the universe began perhaps sin might be a normative part of the plan?

Well, that can be like how, if a country attacks you, the enemy is part of your war plan but the enemy is not a welcome part of the strategy. And the main purpose of the plan is to continue your nation's culture of benefit. The main part of the plan is not only to defeat the enemy, and certainly not only to spend a lot of time only or mainly on beliefs about the war plan and the enemy.

Like this, yes sin is in the plan, but not the main or the welcome part of it. And Jesus is our Husband and we are being conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29 < this is the main plan with its main love purpose. All else is secondary, I would say.

In any event why do you think that God allows such division and confusion?

First, there are people who are not with God, at all. They can pass themselves off as being Christians so that people say, oh look at how those mixed-up and fighting Christians are. Ones like this have conducted even religious wars and various other hurtful things. But if they have been leaders in certain groups and denominations, ones can be in denial about this, and keep on promoting their wrong ideas.

I would consider that God is not allowing such people and their activities, meaning it is not His will and they do not have His approval. But His priority is to correct whoever are His children; so in case a wrong person is not a child of God, that person could go all one's life the wrong way, if one does not seek God for Himself and trust in Jesus and submit to our Father's correction bringing His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17.

But, even among those who are God's children, we can be wrong because of our own immaturity and ways we have not given up our selfish motives. In our selfish stuff, we can see things the wrong way and so have wrong ideas. I suppose you have noticed how a human can have a way he or she wants things to be, and so he or she believes what fits with that. We need first, then, how God corrects us in our character so we can better understand Him and His word.

So, then . . . if a Christian is still not mature, the priority is to correct and mature the person, not only get his or her ideas straightened out. So . . . because of priority, God may allow certain ideas to continue.

Also, if wrong people keep pushing their wrong ideas, this can help really Christian people to spot who the false people are > 1 Corinthians 11:19. But we can also tell by how wrong people can be dictatorial and controlling, which is against how Peter says true exemplary leaders are to relate >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

This is, of course, in God's word; so any of us can feed on these things and then use them to help us know who and what to trust. As we get to know the real deal, it becomes more and more easy to spot what is counterfeit . . . like how Secret Service trainees first are told to examine a real dollar bill, instead of studying the thousands or millions of fakes they have in custody. You can tell, by where someone calls your attention, how much he or she emphasizes what is most important, or is decoying you elsewhere. If you get familiar with the Bible, you can see what needs the main attention. How to become in our character is the first thing Jesus dealt with, in His Sermon on the Mount. But you can see how ones can, right away, get away and be arguing and confused . . . because of their decoy questions with evasion of simply seeking God to cure our nature in His love (1 John 4:17, Ephesians 4:2, Ephesians 4:31-5:2) and then personally guide us in His peace (Colossians 3:15).

So the way you identify these Christians to whom the holy Spirit actually speaks (the red caps as it were), is the latest the things they tell you make you feel close to God and help you be more loving?

You say, "feel" close to God. I offer, that if a person is "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17), one is more and more experiencing how God is so absolutely beautifully wonderful in Heaven-quality love which is pure and pleasant with "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit" (1 Peter 3:4). This will cure our nature and personality. So, yes we will feel this, but because it has become our new reality in us. And this gentle and quiet and unconceited and unegotistical love has almighty power to make us immune to fear and all its personality torments >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Yes, you will feel if fear and its torments can't get the better of you. But you feel this because this is a reality, in God's love. And so, God's children who are discovering this love meaning of His word will show and tell this Meanwhile, others might call themselves Christians, but they will stay busy with arguing and promoting their ideas and practices and trying to figure out what certain Bible passages mean - - where the Bible does not say what they mean. But, instead, we first need to seek our Heavenly Father to correct and cure our nature > Hebrews 12:4-11; then we are in His light so we can see better > Philippians 1:9.

We see in life how beliefs can be effected by if we love or if we hate. For one example, if you love a certain black person you might know personally, your love will have you believing things very different from those of someone else who hates that exact same black person. Plus, our motives can greatly effect how we are ready to understand God's word. The Bible is not exactly friendly with the motives of a number of people.

Also you belive that a sign of wisdom (a red cap trait?), is simply avoiding difficult interpretation issues in scripture?

If I don't understand something, there can be different reasons for this. It can be because I need to mature more so I am ready to handle it > Hebrews 5:13-14. Also, if I try to take a short-cut to only learn ideas, without getting personal correction which God knows I need, then I can get in problems. Also, if I go to wrong source people, I can get ideas which will not fit with the right interpretations of the Bible > there are things you can get straight about, just by reading one Bible verse, but ones can take that question and write books about it . . . selling a lot of books, plus getting a lot of speaking engagements, when one verse speaking for itself might tell you more than all that person's books and lectures combined!

A Bible passage can be difficult because of how I have set myself up with things to keep me from understanding something correctly.

So, we might need to table something while we get correction we need. Also, it simply may not be God's will for us to know something, plus the questions we are asking could be misleading our attention, and we need to get or stay on track where our attention belongs.

For an example of how one could ask misleading questions > if you buy a car and ask how fast it can drive, this could get you in trouble if you try to find out. Or . . . to use a silly example > if you get to arguing with your wife about how to find and use the hatchback of a car that does not even have one > that argument could go on for a while, while you do not discover all that really is in the car. Likewise, there are things which are misleading and sidetracking questions, and therefore not what God might be interested in answering.

But in case we are looking for a right thing, but don't get it right away . . . we might table it, but by praying for how and when God pleases to teach us. And feed on all He does have for us now.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If Jesus was the plan from before the universe began perhaps sin might be a normative part of the plan?

It could be. I think I've heard Reformed preachers give some kind of explanation to that effect. But honestly, the issue of sin's place in the world isn't one that I've come to see as normative for humanity. Maybe I'm wrong ... Maybe the Calvinists are right, in which case , my gut response is..."ewww, God, really?!" But, I'm open to suggestions ...

In any event why do you think that God allows such division and confusion?

That's a good question. It's also one that seems to take us into the realm of the ol' Argument from Evil, and being as such, if an answer is provided, it usually never settles the nerves of the one asking, at least not in a satisfactory manner.

But, would you care for a two-penny answer? Ok, my two-penny answer is that God values human growth in body, mind, spirit, and community, and at the same time, social culpability, both individual and communal. And here's the clincher, and it's something no one will like hearing: God also thinks the presence of social difficulty provides a useful, spiritual, filtering process. But, again, that is my two-penny answer after gleaning the New Testament and thinking long, even if not demonstrably hard, on this problem.

Also I didn't read the by line at first but I knew it was you as soon as I read the word normative (ya clear thinking show off! )
Thanks again for a great post.

...yep, it's me, as phantasmagorical as ever!

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[victorinus]

If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?

many don't test the spirits
-
there are many tests
-reason
-logic
-common sense
-time
-
the test of time is very important
-what has survived the test of time?

 

[Athée]

God didn't include these things to fight over anymore than the parents gave the kids two pieces of cake to fight over.

God presented His word. Men and women of education can debate all the want. We need to look at the bigger picture.

It matters little that people argue over. Take the creation of the earth. It matters little if you disagree with how long ago or how many days it was...the fact is God created it. God created us in His image.

We have purpose. We are a deliberate creation of God.

Take the Rapture. Pre trib, Post trib, mid trib..... someone is right. Two are wrong. Fact is, He is going to come for us. We are His bride. We will be with Him forever....

I could go on. However, none of this matters to anyone, if they don't believe in God, Christ and the gift of salvation, Heaven, Hell or angels and fallen angels.

If you don't believe, investigating things that Christians argue over is not going to help ya.

Thanks for the input, I find that ideas that are internally consistent are more compelling but I can see what you are saying.

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[Athée]

The core beliefs are what matters. If you don't believe the gospel, that Christ died for you and me, what does it matter about the Rapture, the creation of the universe, Nephilime and Giants, ... none of it matters. The whole Bible, boiled down is Man is sinful, Christ will save those who believe. Without that, who cares what other issue you are debating.

I can't really respond to this without debating so instead let me just thank you for sharing your thoughts, truly appreciated

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[Athée]

Theology can also become an idol. Some of the Pharisees made an idol of theology, instead of focusing on God. They usually ended up opponents of God's people.

If theology takes away from the main purpose of life - to love, obey and respect God - even so much that the point of salvation is not focal, then it becomes foolishness.

Let the fools argue amongst themselves.

Would you agree that true theology is thinking god's thoughts after him? Is the pursuit of such truth not worth the effort, or is it perhaps not that inprtant to God, hence all the division and argument ? How do you see it?

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[Athée]

It is part of the plan.

Matthew 10:35-36
For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…

Not everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved - Matthew 7:21-23.

How do you reconcile those verses you cited with the ones about the church being one body that should be while and united?

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[David Vogel]

1)Why do you think God prefers all the confusion and division over teaching Christians the truth?

a. I hesitate to speak for God. If I have reason to trust him (as I do), then I'm content to say I can't fully explain all his purposes. That being said...

b. God chose to make real, individual human persons. Being individuals with free will includes certain consequences, such as disagreement---and sin. When we are saved, God doesn't immediately wholly renovate either our hearts or our minds into something 100% different and unrecognizable, because he is saving us, not merely treating us as a husk to be filled with some other, wholly different person. However, leaving us with our mental limitations, presuppositions, etc. means that we'll disagree. Not because disagreement is the goal, but because it is a side effect of something which is desirable, namely real, individual human persons.

c. But I can even see some benefit from the disagreement, because it encourages all Christians to turn back to the Bible in prayer to seek to understand it. If we all perfectly understood Christian doctrine, don't you think we might be less diligent to reading our Bibles and listening to godly preaching? And, in this life, a state of constantly seeking to know God better through his Word is probably safer than just complacently knowing everything right away.

2) If we understand the actual truth better as we continue to study and get older we would expect that the elders in all the various denominations would slowly be harmonizing their views. Do you think this is happening. If not, why?

I wouldn't expect this, no. People die and new, baby Christians are saved and need to start their own process of learning and growing. And new, bad ideas develop (partially through the influence of Satan, undermining the church), and it takes time to compare them to Scripture and see their error. If you look at the history of the church, you do see a gradual process of agreement on many key doctrines. A good example was the debate over the best way to describe the nature of Jesus and his relation to God the Father and the Holy Spirit in the first few centuries. By the 4th century or so, that question was largely settled through the process you described above---it's just that new, different challenges arose and created new disagreements, as one would expect.

 

[Aryeh]

Would you agree that true theology is thinking god's thoughts after him? Is the pursuit of such truth not worth the effort, or is it perhaps not that inprtant to God, hence all the division and argument ? How do you see it?

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God often says that He chooses those who the world sees as unfit, and uses them for His glory.

Real connection and unity with God is not academic. Theology is academic and/or scholarly study and discovery of truths about faith systems. For God, you do not have to be degreed to be close to Him. In fact, He prefers the attitude and approach of a child much more than the supposed scholarship of an adult.

Fellowship is much more important to God than theology. Fellowship working with faith, obedience, and love for God creates the enrichment of the spirit; theology at best satisfies the person.