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Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

Athée

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It seems to me that the most significant and important events should be the most well attested, that the true things of God would be clearly laid out in the same way that I clearly explain the things I find important to my own children. Do you see it differently?
Why do you think God would give the holy Spirit to lead believers into truth (2philoVoid perspective notwithstanding) and then let them fight and divide when he could easily clear it up? Why do you think he used languages that would be inaccessible to the common person 2000 years later?
Thanks for a great post!

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Athée

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So when these everyday Christians don't have the education to access the old testament, why does God allow them to make errors and spread dissent. Is the holy Spirit not able to overcome their poor education and human error?

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Athée

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Thanks for sharing your story with me/us
When I read your post I wonder how you personally would go about figuring out who is actually hearing the spirit in the way you describe?
I have other questions too but I don't want to derail my own thread!

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Athée

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Man you need to include a tl:dr section on that one!

Just kidding, thank you for the thoughtful response. Since I do this all on my phone I had to take notes as I read just to be sure I would ask all the questions I have so here goes...
It seems your example of an easy issue, by your own admission, is fraught with disagreement. Is salvation and how it happens a trivial matter?

You mentioned that false Christians could be part of sowing confusion. How do you tell who the true and false ones are?

The post says god corrects only his children, in that case why did Paul even bother with the gentiles, they were not gods children at that time and he seemed to be correcting them and bringing them to God.

If being a mature believer means you have a netter sense of the truth why do we have elders in all the different denominations who disagree with each other? Moreover if length of time that ideas are considered leads to truth shouldn't the Catholics or the Orthodox be considered the most mature and therfore true?

When you say people who are wrong can be identified by the way they push bad ideas,wouldn't they say the same thing of you, that you are pushing the bad ideas (where they disagree with you at least)? How do we tell who is correct?

You also said that false believers are dictatorial or controlling, are those traits that can only be exhibited by non-Christian or can a true Christian also behave in those ways sometime?

The post said true Christians fear not and act in love, do you think this is not possible for a non-believer?

When you say you might need to table something for later how would you distinguish between finally being mature enough to understand an idea and the process of eliminating cognitive dissonance by forcing an idea to fit within your preconceived framework?

Thanks again


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Athée

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Do you find the idea of God desiring some level of human suffering and the thought that sin is part of the plan from the beginning to put too much strain on the idea of a loving/just/holy etc god?
Is the current level of suffering intended by God?

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Athée

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many don't test the spirits
-
there are many tests
-reason
-logic
-common sense
-time
-
the test of time is very important
-what has survived the test of time?
I wonder if reasonable Christians could disagree or does reason always lead believes to the same conclusions.
Logic is a tough one. Do you mean formal logic or is this an extension of common sense in your view?
Is common sense truly common across all the global community of Christians or do you think social norms and culture shape what is considered common sense to some extent?

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Athée

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many don't test the spirits
-
there are many tests
-reason
-logic
-common sense
-time
-
the test of time is very important
-what has survived the test of time?
Oops forgot the test of time. If length of time is important the the eastern religions are correct, or maybe the Muslims..?

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Athée

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B) If you belive in Satan, and your post suggests you do, then you have an example of a being who knows the truth of the matter, knows the doctrine completely but still freely chose not to obey and worship. Does knowledge really negate free will?
C) I don't see the benifit to be honest. If all believers knew what was true they could spend their time in worship and service as opposed to arguing with each other and confusing non-believers. Doesn't that seem better to you?
D) If you belive that the church began as one body the fact that you now have thousands of divisions seems to suggest that the trajectory of reconciliation that you suggested might not be so clear. Do you see it differently?

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Athée

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That's a fair response, what if we replaced theology with the truth of the things of God, does approaching these like a child, without any filters, believing whatever you understand from the text uncritically, really make for the best understanding? Do you think God cares if his children understand the truths he is trying to communicate in the bible?

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Monk Brendan

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I like the idea of bibliomancy, I will use that in future discussions Congratulations on your superpower!

Don't! It is superstition. You can very easily be mislead by using it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you find the idea of God desiring some level of human suffering and the thought that sin is part of the plan from the beginning to put too much strain on the idea of a loving/just/holy etc god?
Is the current level of suffering intended by God?
Well, Socrates, are we still trying to answer the question of the OP, or instead move down some other tangent now? Are we interlocuting under the intentions of Street Epistemology here, OR are we trying to actually get at the purpose of why God allows Christians to "whap each other upside the head!?"

I'm more than happy to try to answer questions and be helpful, but at the same time I'm just wondering: what are we trying to specifically "explore" here, Athée.

Peace,
2PhiloVod
 
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David Vogel

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B) If you belive in Satan, and your post suggests you do, then you have an example of a being who knows the truth of the matter, knows the doctrine completely but still freely chose not to obey and worship. Does knowledge really negate free will?
Sorry for confusing the matter by bringing up free will. I meant it as just part of the "whole person" which God loves and desires to save. For whatever reason (see my point a earlier), God chooses not to dump a "knowledge implant" into us at the moment of conversion which would give us perfect clarity about all religious truth. I think his apparent preference for individual persons helps to explain why he handles things as he does.

C) I don't see the benifit to be honest. If all believers knew what was true they could spend their time in worship and service as opposed to arguing with each other and confusing non-believers. Doesn't that seem better to you?
No, actually. What you described is basically heaven, but on earth, with fallen minds and fallen natures, I am quite certain that unification in knowledge would not produce the unity you envision. On this earth, our greatest safeguard is abiding in the Word of God, and there are few better ways to remind us of its importance than to use it to gradually feed and teach us as we dig into it. But, remember, I'm just speculating. God doesn't tell us why he doesn't immediately implant knowledge into us when we're saved, so we can only guess.

D) If you belive that the church began as one body the fact that you now have thousands of divisions seems to suggest that the trajectory of reconciliation that you suggested might not be so clear. Do you see it differently?
I didn't intend to suggest a "clear" trajectory of reconciliation. I do think you'll find that a body of Christians who prayerfully tackle one particular question over a few generations usually reach greater unity on it. The morality of slavery would be another good example. But, as I said in my earlier post, there are also opposing forces which tend toward less unity and the sort of denominational splintering we see historically.
 
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Athée

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Too funny! I was thinking the same thing before I replied, wondering if I should follow up on the question or just let it slide and try to stay true to the thread topic. I have been trying to stay on course but I also enjoy asking questions And yes street epistemology is cool, there are some good channels starting up that are not so focused on religious beliefs, investigating the epistemology of non theists. Good stuff!

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Aryeh

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Yes.

And, yes.

Humans put boundaries on everything. Children dont. They are taught boundaries. This includes intellectual, spiritual and philosophical boundaries.

But, God has no boundaries. His simplicity demands an open, uncritical (to a point,) unfiltered and innocently seeking heart/mind. Otherwise, He becomes overwhelmingly paradoxical, and complicated by the hedges and boundaries we put on a creation for which we didn't make the rules.

Even Christ talks about the importance of wing child-like when approaching God.

I would say God cares more that the children know Him, and build their foundation in Him from an early age. The older someone gets, the harder it becomes for someone to understand and accept God. Life just gets in the way and replaces the importance of spiritual discernment with carnal survival.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I said no such a thing; what makes you think that I did?

You said:

That is a very biased statement. Saying that implies Catholics can't or won't listen to the Holy Spirit. You are also implying that Catholics are mindless drones. They are not. Each and every Catholic has a mind, will, and emotions, and Jesus died for each and every one of us.

Would you like to be compared to a mindless drone? Would you like it if I said about you and your church that they only listen to Scripture through the filter of their denomination and their pastor? Not that I'm saying that about you. Heaven forbid I should say anything nasty about you when I don't even know you.

I am just asking that you keep comparisons that might include Catholics out of these fora.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes, epistemology is VERY cool! Which is, as you may already have surmised about me, why I keep peppering it in my posts here and there. I'm for the Epistemological exploration of ALL points of view, which is the usual working parameter of epistemologists. The problem with "Street Epistemology" is that it is typically stuck in the Boghossian rut of Foundationalism, assessing just about everything by way of the structure of this particular epistemic framework. But, obviously in saying this, I digress somewhat from the OP.

So, back to your questions, Socrates!

"Do you find the idea of God desiring some level of human suffering and the thought that sin is part of the plan from the beginning to put too much strain on the idea of a loving/just/holy etc god?
The first part of it, that of suffering on behalf of Christ, I kind of expect since it keeps coming up as an aspect of the Christian Theology and Doctrine found in the New Testament.

The second part, that of sin being subscribed to as a part of God's plan, is something that I haven't settled on yet, and the little jury that sits in my brain is still "out" on that one. I suppose that if i can see sin not only as a moral fault of humanity, but also as a (partly?) unintentional state of mind because of the usual epistemological limitations of the human brain, then in some sense, I might be able to see God as "sliding" the premise of sin into the list of "necessaries" to carry on His plan for humanity. But, again, that is still under consideration ...

Is the current level of suffering intended by God?
I hate to say this, but I think there is evidence in the Bible, particularly the New Testament, which indicates that God does intend for some level of suffering to be experienced by, and at times even between, those who claim to be Christians in the world, as harsh and undemocratic as that may sound.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Monk Brendan

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HOLD EVERYTHING! Athee has started with the wrong question, and everybody is trying to give him the right answer when what we need to be telling him what the right question is.

Athee, you claim to be an atheist. If that is true, why all of the focus on the Holy Spirit? You cannot receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while you don't believe in God! First, you have to seek Him. If you earnestly seek Him you will find Him. Then you need to begin cooperating with Him. To do that, all you need to do is to humble yourself and pray. Tell Him that you want to cooperate Him. Most Protestants will tell you that you must accept Jesus into your heart. I don't care what they say, I am only interested in you learning to love God.

Once you have done that, THEN you can worry about how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life.
 
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John Hyperspace

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You're completely reading all of that into what I said. I didn't mean to convey anything at all like that; generally, Catholics believe that it is through the hierarchy of the church that scripture is interpreted in any infallible manner. I wasn't attempting to say they are "mindless drones" or anything of that like negative connotation. Believe me, the only "nastiness" in my words is being put into them by your mind.
 
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JacksBratt

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This is very dangerous. God does not work this way.

I knew a guy who tried this when he was depressed. He decided to open the bible and do what ever it said.
The first verse was:

Matthew 27:5King James Version (KJV)

5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

He wasn't sure what this verse was telling him so he closed it up and tried again. This time he opened to this:

Luke 10:37King James Version (KJV)

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.




 
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