Why do Christians ask for things when they pray?

[DArceri]

Since Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will, then would Yahweh be weakened if Christians stopped praying? His available methods which he is capable of using to accomplish his will would certainly have decreased.

Like I said before, for the true believer, it is the Spirit of God who moves us to pray. That being said, God can also accomplish His will through the actions of wicked people. He used Judas to accomplish His purpose didn't He.

If a person gets sick and a Christian who has never met the patient prays for the patient to get better, is the sick person more likely to recover? Yahweh would certainly have more tools with which to help the sick person.

That is up to God's will. It may well be that His will is for that person to die. Through that person's death, God may accomplish another purpose we are not privy to. That is why we always pray, "if it is your will..."

 

[Whatthedeuce]

Like I said before, for the true believer, it is the Spirit of God who moves us to pray. That being said, God can also accomplish His will through the actions of wicked people. He used Judas to accomplish His purpose didn't He.

I don't see how this answers my question. I wasn't asking about whether or not Yahweh uses wicked people or what moves Christians to pray. You said that Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will. I then asked if Christians stopped praying, would Yahweh be weakened by this decrease in the amount of tools he has at his disposal to accomplish his will?

That is up to God's will. It may well be that His will is for that person to die. Through that person's death, God may accomplish another purpose we are not privy to. That is why we always pray, "if it is your will..."

I also don't see how this addresses the question I asked. I wasn't asking why Yahweh might not answer a prayer. I asked if a Christian prays for a sick person, does it increase the chance of the sick person getting better?

 

[DArceri]

I don't see how this answers my question. I wasn't asking about whether or not Yahweh uses wicked people or what moves Christians to pray. You said that Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will. I then asked if Christians stopped praying, would Yahweh be weakened by this decrease in the amount of tools he has at his disposal to accomplish his will?

I answered your question. I said it is God's Spirit who moves us to pray. That means that essentially it is God who determines when we pray!!! Does that answer your question?

I also don't see how this addresses the question I asked. I wasn't asking why Yahweh might not answer a prayer. I asked if a Christian prays for a sick person, does it increase the chance of the sick person getting better?

God uses His Spirit to accomplish His will. If God wills a person to be healed through prayer, then the Spirit of God will move people to pray.... That being said, I think you need to realize that prayer is not to be viewed as a means whereby we change God's heart, but instead, often times in prayer, it is God who is changing our heart.


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[Whatthedeuce]

I answered your question. I said it is God's Spirit who moves us to pray. That means that essentially it is God who determines when we pray!!! Does that answer your question?

No, it does not answer the question. I will repeat it for the third time: Since Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians as one method to accomplish his will, would he be weakened if Christians stopped praying?

The first time you responded to it you said: Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray and Yahweh sometimes uses wicked people
The second time you responded, you said: Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray so Yahweh determines when Christians pray.

An answer to my question would have to involve saying yes, no, you don't know, or saying that the question is invalid or doesn't make sense. Ideally you would also include an explanation of the answer. You did talk about the general topic of prayer and how Yahweh carries out his will; however, you never said that Yahweh would/would not be weakened if Christians stopped praying or that my question was invalid.

God uses His Spirit to accomplish His will. If God wills a person to be healed through prayer, then the Spirit of God will move people to pray.

This also does not answer the question it is responding to. The question was: If a Christian prays for a sick person, does it increase the chances of the sick person getting better?

The first time you responded to it you said: That [I'm not sure what "that" is referring to ] is up to Yahweh's will. Sometimes good things can come from death. Therefore Christians pray all the time.
The second time you responded to it you said: If Yahweh wants someone to be healed through prayer, then he will force people to pray.

These do talk about the general topic praying and Yahweh helping people recover from sickness. However, neither one of them addresses the question of whether or not a patient who has been prayed for by a Christian has been made more likely to recover.

 

[ebia]

So, then does aligning oneself with "Yahweh's Kingdom" in prayer include asking strangers specific questions about their lives and then praying for their alleged problems?

It's not my cup of tea, but if someone else finds that brings them into people's problems in effective ways then I don't have an issue with it.

Is praying for strangers' problems important enough to divert real efforts that could help people in need?

If we don't spend time on relationships, on empathy, on being a bridge between people's intractable problems and the God who will make all things new, we loose track of the practical stuff as well, and/or the scale of the problem overwhelms us.

While it may annoy some people, I don't think that going door to door offering prayer is a bad thing. However, I do think that diverting philanthropic activities away from helping people in need is a bad thing.

I would say that's a refection of the "instant results now is all that counts" current culture.

Christians are realists, in this sense: we know we can't fix the problems of the world. God can and will do that in the long term, and he includes us in his doing it, but part of the way he includes us in his doing it is in empathy, in prayer, in holding a world in pain with arms outstretched cross-like and being pulled apart in that pain, as much as in the practical stuff and the campaigning for justice stuff.

 

[Whatthedeuce]

If we don't spend time on relationships, on empathy, on being a bridge between people's intractable problems and the God who will make all things new, we loose track of the practical stuff as well, and/or the scale of the problem overwhelms us.

I don't see how this addresses the question of whether aligning oneself with Yahweh's kingdom by praying for people's problems can be more important than helping people.

I would say that's a refection of the "instant results now is all that counts" current culture.

How is this a reflection of that culture?
It is a reflection of the idea that helping people in need is better than not helping people in need. I never even mentioned a timescale so i don't know where the instant part came from.

Christians are realists, in this sense: we know we can't fix the problems of the world. God can and will do that in the long term, and he includes us in his doing it, but part of the way he includes us in his doing it is in empathy, in prayer, in holding a world in pain with arms outstretched cross-like and being pulled apart in that pain, as much as in the practical stuff and the campaigning for justice stuff.

I don't understand what the bold part means. However, for the rest of this quote, are you saying that feeling empathy and praying is equally as helpful as real tangible efforts to solving problems?

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[Whatthedeuce]

Well, I'm saying that God already knows what people are going to ask before they even ask (Matthew 6:8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.).

So, in response to my first question, you aren't saying anything about who benefits from prayer. You are just saying why people pray.

So why should we pray if God already knows? To show to God that we are persistent. But the more important question is, what should we pray?

This is the Lord's prayer: Thank you God.

Saying thank you anticipates an answered prayer.

So, then why would someone ask for something good to happen to another person while praying? Asking for good things to happen to other people is not the same as saying "thank you."

Would you say thank you after/during a prayer in which you ask Yahweh for something? Yahweh has the option of not giving you what you asked for. If saying thank you anticipates an answered prayer, then it sounds very arrogant to assume that Yahweh will answer your prayer before you know what he has decided to do about your prayer.

 

[razeontherock]

O.K. so before I comment further, I am going to ask you if I understand correctly. To me this is what it appears you are saying:

Yahweh cannot do anything unless a human gives him permission first.

Is this correct? If it is not, could you explain what you really meant?

We need to include the scope of my comment, i.e. put it back in context:

God can do anything He pleases. Part of that has been to give man dominion. (He repented of that, including even making us BTW)

The dominion we have been given is limited, but includes everything on this planet - within our lifetime. "It is appointed for man once to die, and then the Judgment."

G-d can do MANY things w/o our permission, including things we really really don't like. While we're alive we can do anything we're big and bad enough to do. These two will meet! It can happen in prayer.

 

[razeontherock]

Since Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will, then would Yahweh be weakened if Christians stopped praying?

No. God does not change. The confusion here is really a mystery, called the Church. I will attempt to give you more simple answers, but expect they still won't be satisfactory, because the Church is a mystery!

 

[razeontherock]

If a person gets sick and a Christian who has never met the patient prays for the patient to get better, is the sick person more likely to recover?

God is not a game of chance. He either moves to heal that person, or He does not. Additionally, there are many different ways God does this, from instantaneous, complete and miraculous, to simply adding comfort to suffering, still resulting in death. And all points in between. Either way, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Although those results often can't be measured in a test tube.

 

[Colin]

I don't understand why a Christian would ask Yahweh for something while praying. For example, when a person gets sick, many people who know the patient or have heard of the situation will pray for the patient to get better and overcome the disease. However, if Yahweh is omniscient, then he would know everything about the situation and whether or not it would be best for the patient to recover regardless of whether people pray or not. In these sorts of situations, how are the Christians doing anything other than waste their time by praying for the person to get better?

Jesus wants us to do it that way.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't see how this addresses the question of whether aligning oneself with Yahweh's kingdom by praying for people's problems can be more important than helping people.

We can all do good works and still be rejected by Him, just like we can all take a bath but it doesn't perform the function of Baptism in God's eyes. Trying to do good works without being aligned with His will is self-righteousness. Nothing good will come of it, ultimately. I would rather see people volunteer in the red cross or the peace corps; they don't claim any Spiritual connection.

The difference is to "help," the individual members of the Church must be in the proper position to extend help from. And that position is - - in Christ. Again, this is not a measurement we have the technology to determine. It is a mystery.

What we do know about the Church (w/ a capital C) is Christ is the Head. This goes to your original question, which I'm now re-phrasing as "will any of us, not having any experience with that particular Church or any of it's members, condemn it as not having Christ as it's head?"

I know those aren't the words you used, but I expect you do not realize that's what's really being asked. I'll also point out that no one here is so foolish as to pretend to sit that high, which I'm glad to see! Really, it is His determination to make; should this particular Church abandon their unusual door to door prayer ministry, or not? If it is His will to act the way they are, the prayer ministry will accomplish more than anything else these individuals could do. This is consistent with my first post in this thread which you will see if you re-read it. What makes you think anyone involved in the prayer ministry would be of any use to the other things you'd rather see them do?
Christians are given different gifts. Mine is not going door-to-door praying for strangers, that I'm aware of. When I function within the capacity Christ has given me, I get good results. If He directs me to knock on doors to pray for strangers, I'd better go do it!

 

[Whatthedeuce]

We need to include the scope of my comment, i.e. put it back in context:

God can do anything He pleases. Part of that has been to give man dominion. (He repented of that, including even making us BTW)

The dominion we have been given is limited, but includes everything on this planet - within our lifetime. "It is appointed for man once to die, and then the Judgment."

G-d can do MANY things w/o our permission, including things we really really don't like. While we're alive we can do anything we're big and bad enough to do. These two will meet! It can happen in prayer.

What do you mean what you say Yahweh gave us dominion? What did he give us dominion over? How does this dominion make people want to ask Yahweh to help other people when they pray? This is a concept no one has ever introduced to me before.

No. God does not change. The confusion here is really a mystery, called the Church. I will attempt to give you more simple answers, but expect they still won't be satisfactory, because the Church is a mystery!

If you don't have satisfactory answers to these questions then wouldn't that mean you don't have satisfactory reasons to ask Yahweh for things when you pray?

God is not a game of chance. He either moves to heal that person, or He does not. Additionally, there are many different ways God does this, from instantaneous, complete and miraculous, to simply adding comfort to suffering, still resulting in death. And all points in between. Either way, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Although those results often can't be measured in a test tube.

I understand that Christians do not think Yahweh is not a game of chance. However, our attempts to predict what he will decide to do when someone is sick and our ability to measure his decisions with past patients is a based on chance.

So, I will ask again, is a sick person more likely to be healed from a sickness if a Christian prays for the patient to get better? Or maybe I should reword it this way: If a Christian prays for a sick person, does that make Yahweh more likely to decide to heal the patient?

I realize that you said that prayer "availeth much" but you didn't say anything about the nature of what it "availeth." It is not clear to me what exactly this means.

 

[razeontherock]

What do you mean what you say Yahweh gave us dominion? What did he give us dominion over? How does this dominion make people want to ask Yahweh to help other people when they pray? This is a concept no one has ever introduced to me before.

Dominion = "ability to do." Maybe in a somewhat legalistic sense, in that we may, even if we are not able. Privileges and responsibility, just like we teach our kids. If you read back over my previous posts in this thread, you will get a clearer picture via context.

If you don't have satisfactory answers to these questions then wouldn't that mean you don't have satisfactory reasons to ask Yahweh for things when you pray?

No, I don't mean that. I have satisfactory answers. I expect they won't be satisfactory to you, seeing as you don't seem to be part of His Church, and none of this is first-hand experience for you.

I understand that Christians do not think Yahweh is not a game of chance. However, our attempts to predict what he will decide to do when someone is sick and our ability to measure his decisions with past patients is a based on chance.

No, it's really not. This is but one example of the difference between what Scripture calls our "carnal mind," and what it means to be Spiritually minded. If someone wants to know what it's like to be wet, they need to jump in the water!

So, I will ask again, is a sick person more likely to be healed from a sickness if a Christian prays for the patient to get better? Or maybe I should reword it this way: If a Christian prays for a sick person, does that make Yahweh more likely to decide to heal the patient?

Do you know what the shortest verse in the Bible is? "Jesus wept." While humans consider this an act of weakness, it accompanies the most powerful act Jesus ever did, raising Lazarus from the grave! Yes, God is moved by compassion. If we feel that, it can only be God's own compassion. (Not being born again, this would not necessarily apply to you) Again, your question while it seems simple, is asking a great mystery. "God's ways are past finding out." We can know what He reveals to us, but often we only see it in hindsight.

I realize that you said that prayer "availeth much" but you didn't say anything about the nature of what it "availeth." It is not clear to me what exactly this means.

that passage of Scripture sure does say EXACTLY what it "availeth." Did you skip over the word "effectual?" (Or maybe I skipped over it?) As in, the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much." I think I left that word out, sorry. So what does "effectual" mean? IMHO, we're back where I started, asking for what we KNOW to be God's will. This is how I've seen prayer answered, anyway, which is why I have the understanding I do. The "if it be thy will" stuff seems weak to me. I've never seen anything change like that. In other words, if we ask for something that won't have any effect, or the effect isn't something God wants or would do, that prayer won't make it past the ceiling. On a somber note, there are portions of the OT that refer to God not answering His people's prayers as a Judgment for sin. I certainly wouldn't ignore that!

 

[Whatthedeuce]

Dominion = "ability to do." Maybe in a somewhat legalistic sense, in that we may, even if we are not able. Privileges and responsibility, just like we teach our kids. If you read back over my previous posts in this thread, you will get a clearer picture via context.

I did read back over what you said in your previous posts. You never say what Yahweh gave us dominion over. If you somehow meant for me to infer it through contextual clues, I am telling you that the hints you gave were lost on me. I respond much better when people simply state what they mean.

No, it's really not. This is but one example of the difference between what Scripture calls our "carnal mind," and what it means to be Spiritually minded. If someone wants to know what it's like to be wet, they need to jump in the water!

I understand, that Christians often feel we can't study what it "feels like" to be healed by Yahweh or determine if one specific person is healed by him. However, from our point of view, when there is a sick person, guessing the simple question of whether or not the person will recover is entirely up to chance. This is not a qualitative experience (like the feeling of being wet) but a yes/no question.

Do you know what the shortest verse in the Bible is? "Jesus wept." While humans consider this an act of weakness, it accompanies the most powerful act Jesus ever did, raising Lazarus from the grave! Yes, God is moved by compassion. If we feel that, it can only be God's own compassion. (Not being born again, this would not necessarily apply to you) Again, your question while it seems simple, is asking a great mystery. "God's ways are past finding out." We can know what He reveals to us, but often we only see it in hindsight.

So then it appears that your answer to the question is "I don't know." You do not know whether or not asking Yahweh to help someone else has any benefit for that person. Am I correct?

that passage of Scripture sure does say EXACTLY what it "availeth." Did you skip over the word "effectual?" (Or maybe I skipped over it?) As in, the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much." I think I left that word out, sorry. So what does "effectual" mean? IMHO, we're back where I started, asking for what we KNOW to be God's will. This is how I've seen prayer answered, anyway, which is why I have the understanding I do. The "if it be thy will" stuff seems weak to me. I've never seen anything change like that. In other words, if we ask for something that won't have any effect, or the effect isn't something God wants or would do, that prayer won't make it past the ceiling. On a somber note, there are portions of the OT that refer to God not answering His people's prayers as a Judgment for sin. I certainly wouldn't ignore that!

We both know you did not leave the word "effectual" out. Why would you apologize for something you did not do?

Anyways, the word "effectual" is an adjective. The statement "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" does not mean that "effectual" is being "availeth." That doesn't even make grammatical sense. In that statement, "effectual" is an adjective modifying the subject ("prayer") of the verb ("availeth"). The thing that is being "availeth" would be the object of the verb. However, the quote contains no object, it just attaches the adverb "much" and ends. Without an object of the verb, what is "availeth" was never stated. Even if "effectual" was intended to be the word despite the fact it is clearly a modifier to the word "prayer", that would make less sense because "effectual" is an adjective, not a noun.

 

[DArceri]

No, it does not answer the question. I will repeat it for the third time: Since Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians as one method to accomplish his will, would he be weakened if Christians stopped praying?

For a true Christian, God is 3 person's in ONE....The Holy Spirit is part of the TRIUNE GODHEAD. Thus I will explain it again. God's Spirit (The 3rd person of the Trinity ie. The Holy Spirit) MOVES US to prayer. So how could GOD be weakened when it is He who is MOVING our hearts to pray......God is in control..... Like I said before, prayer is not to be viewed as a means whereby we change God's heart, but instead, it is God who is changing our heart at the same time He is accomplishing His will for another.......I don't know how else to explain it.



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[ebia]

I don't see how this addresses the question of whether aligning oneself with Yahweh's kingdom by praying for people's problems can be more important than helping people.

How is this a reflection of that culture?
It is a reflection of the idea that helping people in need is better than not helping people in need. I never even mentioned a timescale so i don't know where the instant part came from.

I don't understand what the bold part means. However, for the rest of this quote, are you saying that feeling empathy and praying is equally as helpful as real tangible efforts to solving problems?

A parable:
Schools - the whole education - in Laos was ____'ed over by the Khmer Rouge. The schools are absurdly under resourced and teachers not equipped with the education needed to do their jobs. Two organisations decide to help a school. The first raises money, purchases computers and peripherals, funds the building of a computer lab, installs the computers, sets them up and shows the staff how to use them. The second goes in, spends time talking to the teachers, principles and school bodies about their problem and just getting to know the country and culture, and then sets up a scheme whereby Australian teachers spend their two week July break giving workshops for Laos teachers and paying those Laos teachers their salary while they do it.

 

[drich0150]

When I heard this, it horrified me, because all that effort to pray for all of those people was effort that had been diverted away from actually helping people.

Again it seem you have mis-evaluated the need for hope some people have. Churches like that fill a role. Kinda like a member of your body. If all the different members of you body had the same function, you'd be useless. Because if you were just one big eye, you could Proabaly see pretty well, but you couldn't hear, or speak.

The same goes for the different churches. we are all different members of the same body. if all of us had the same function, then the body of Christ would be useless.

We need the diversity in our denominations to complete the many tasks we have set before us in this life.

 

[Whatthedeuce]

I don't know how else to explain it.

We haven't even gotten to an explanation yet. Before you can explain the answer to the question, you have to provide an answer. Let's start with that.

Again my question was: If Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will, then would he be weakened by the decrease in the tools at his disposal if Christians didn't pray?

I have already stated what an answer is in post #24, but I suppose I was not clear enough. I will make repeat and expand on the idea in this post. An answer to the yes or no question would involve saying something along the lines of one of these responses:
1.Yes (saying that if Christians did not pray, Yahweh would be weaker.)
2. No (saying that if Christians stopped praying, it would not weaken Yahweh)
3. I don't know (you don't have the information necessary to answer the question)
4. Maybe (whether or not this would weaken Yahweh depends on other circumstances)
5. The question doesn't make sense (my question is grammatically or syntactically incoherent. For example, if in the statement of the question I tried to use an adjective as the object of a verb, that would be incoherent.)
6. It's just an invalid question (by asking my question I am implicitly or explicitly assuming something that is false. For example, the question: How many seconds are there in a mile? is invalid because it relies on thev implicit assumption that miles can be divided into seconds.)

If you gave me one of those responses, I am unaware of it. If there is another type of response to a yes/no question that I am unaware of, please inform me of it.

Anyways, let me go summarize what you have told me in response to this question so far:
response#1
1. Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray
2. Yahweh sometimes uses wicked people to accomplish his will

response #2
1. Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray
2. Yahweh determines when Christians pray

response #3*
1. Yahweh is three people in one
2. Yahweh's spirit, which is one of those people, moves Christians to pray
3. Yahweh is in control
4. Prayer is not meant to change Yahweh's heart, but instead Yahweh is changing our hearts while accomplishing his will
*You also include a question asking how Yahweh could be weakened. I'm not sure what its purpose was, since I am clearly in no position to tell you about the nature of a god which you worship and I do not.


Clearly, you feel that you have answered the question. You have stated that you have answered it more than once. However, if you have answered this question, it is not in a form that I am able to recognize. Could you please answer the question in a clear way? I feel like I am being very straightforward. I provided six types of possible answers. If you feel that there is another possible way of answering this question, could you tell me what it is?