Why do Christians ask for things when they pray?

[DArceri]

We haven't even gotten to an explanation yet. Before you can explain the answer to the question, you have to provide an answer. Let's start with that.

Again my question was: If Yahweh uses the prayers of Christians to accomplish his will, then would he be weakened by the decrease in the tools at his disposal if Christians didn't pray?

I have already stated what an answer is in post #24, but I suppose I was not clear enough. I will make repeat and expand on the idea in this post. An answer to the yes or no question would involve saying something along the lines of one of these responses:
1.Yes (saying that if Christians did not pray, Yahweh would be weaker.)
2. No (saying that if Christians stopped praying, it would not weaken Yahweh)
3. I don't know (you don't have the information necessary to answer the question)
4. Maybe (whether or not this would weaken Yahweh depends on other circumstances)
5. The question doesn't make sense (my question is grammatically or syntactically incoherent. For example, if in the statement of the question I tried to use an adjective as the object of a verb, that would be incoherent.)
6. It's just an invalid question (by asking my question I am implicitly or explicitly assuming something that is false. For example, the question: How many seconds are there in a mile? is invalid because it relies on thev implicit assumption that miles can be divided into seconds.)

If you gave me one of those responses, I am unaware of it. If there is another type of response to a yes/no question that I am unaware of, please inform me of it.

Anyways, let me go summarize what you have told me in response to this question so far:
response#1
1. Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray
2. Yahweh sometimes uses wicked people to accomplish his will

response #2
1. Yahweh's spirit moves Christians to pray
2. Yahweh determines when Christians pray

response #3*
1. Yahweh is three people in one
2. Yahweh's spirit, which is one of those people, moves Christians to pray
3. Yahweh is in control
4. Prayer is not meant to change Yahweh's heart, but instead Yahweh is changing our hearts while accomplishing his will
*You also include a question asking how Yahweh could be weakened. I'm not sure what its purpose was, since I am clearly in no position to tell you about the nature of a god which you worship and I do not.


Clearly, you feel that you have answered the question. You have stated that you have answered it more than once. However, if you have answered this question, it is not in a form that I am able to recognize. Could you please answer the question in a clear way? I feel like I am being very straightforward. I provided six types of possible answers. If you feel that there is another possible way of answering this question, could you tell me what it is?

OK, I'll be more direct, but first of all, just to clear things up, God cannot be thought of as 3 people. By saying 3 people, it sounds like you are saying that there are 3 human beings in the Triune Godhead. That is just not the case. But lets not go there since we will go way off topic. So, when I asked you the question, "How could God be weakened if it is God Himself who moves us to prayer?", I basically wanted you to conclude for yourself the obvious answer rather than me just saying to you,... "NO, God can NEVER be weakened SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT,.....ETC. ...God will ALLOW things to occur (for a season) for a reason!!!". ......Again, my attempt was to push you to 'see' why the answer is NO,.....

 

[Whatthedeuce]

We can all do good works and still be rejected by Him, just like we can all take a bath but it doesn't perform the function of Baptism in God's eyes. Trying to do good works without being aligned with His will is self-righteousness. Nothing good will come of it, ultimately. I would rather see people volunteer in the red cross or the peace corps; they don't claim any Spiritual connection.

This is confusing to me. You say that trying to do good works without being aligned to Yahweh's will does not bring any good. However, in this same paragraph you endorse organizations that try to do good, and are not spiritually aligned. This appears to directly contradict itself.

The difference is to "help," the individual members of the Church must be in the proper position to extend help from. And that position is - - in Christ. Again, this is not a measurement we have the technology to determine. It is a mystery.

Why is "help" in quotation marks? It is a very commonly understood word, and we have been using it without quotes for a while in this discussion already.
Also, what do you mean by a person must be "in Christ" in order to extend help? I can help people no matter where I am or what I believe. If I give food to a starving person, it is helpful regardless of where I do it or what my beliefs are. I find this very confusing.

What we do know about the Church (w/ a capital C) is Christ is the Head. This goes to your original question, which I'm now re-phrasing as "will any of us, not having any experience with that particular Church or any of it's members, condemn it as not having Christ as it's head?"

I know those aren't the words you used, but I expect you do not realize that's what's really being asked.

It's true, I can't possibly have any idea what you mean by whether or not this church has Christ as it's head. However, I do hope you don't think I'm asking you to condemn it. I stated more than once that the church does a lot of things to help its community.

I'll also point out that no one here is so foolish as to pretend to sit that high, which I'm glad to see! Really, it is His determination to make; should this particular Church abandon their unusual door to door prayer ministry, or not?

I was under the impression that the members of this Church designed, proposed, considered, accepted, and implemented this program through their own free will. Are you saying other wise?

If it is His will to act the way they are, the prayer ministry will accomplish more than anything else these individuals could do. This is consistent with my first post in this thread which you will see if you re-read it. What makes you think anyone involved in the prayer ministry would be of any use to the other things you'd rather see them do?

I think they would be of use in other activities because they are effective, competent workers. Also, many of them are involved in other philanthropic activities and often choose between several. My friend, the only one of them I personally know, is one of these people.


Anyways, it is understandable that you would feel uncomfortable making opinions about actions of real people you have not met. How about answering a more general question:

Do you think it is better to pray for several people, or is it better to spend the same amount of time working to actually help one person? Or, if it is sometimes better to do one, and sometimes better to do another, what determines which is better?

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[Greg1234]

how are the Christians doing anything other than waste their time by praying for the person to get better?

Prayer at its very core, is the attunement of the mind with spiritual aspect of reality. The mind is an active force. Constantly fluctuating to accommodate the predominant force which dwells upon it. Whether it is of material or non material origin. Some people meditate and pray. Some people pray so hard that they fall into a meditative state as did Paul in Acts 22:18. But its not necessarily the meditation itself but what is meditated upon which is important.

The mind of God, the divine mind within an entity, under the conditions attained through prayer, will filter down guidance through a situation. A God's eye view, so to speak, of a string of events. This is not a grant or a gift, but natural law. Often referred to as "promises from God". I have also seen cases where the mind will act upon the physical aspect of a person. But this gets even more complicated as the disease involved karmic ties, some were caused by the mind in the first place inducing tangible physical alterations and it was otherwise untreatable through physical means as body constantly reverted to its previous state.

When Jesus would heal a person, you could say that he was praying for that person, but without the need for prior attunement as the mind is already in accordance with the infinite.

Therefore no, its not "Christians doing anything other than waste their time". Though prayer has been stigmatized, it remains as a very powerful tool when understood and applied.

 

[Whatthedeuce]

Prayer at its very core, is the attunement of the mind with spiritual aspect of reality. The mind is an active force. Constantly fluctuating to accommodate the predominant force which dwells upon it. Whether it is of material or non material origin. Some people meditate and pray. Some people pray so hard that they fall into a meditative state as did Paul in Acts 22:18. But its not necessarily the meditation itself but what is meditated upon which is important.

The mind of God, the divine mind within an entity, under the conditions attained through prayer, will filter down guidance through a situation. A God's eye view, so to speak, of a string of events. This is not a grant or a gift, but natural law. Often referred to as "promises from God". I have also seen cases where the mind will act upon the physical aspect of a person. But this gets even more complicated as the disease involved karmic ties, some were caused by the mind in the first place inducing tangible physical alterations and it was otherwise untreatable through physical means as body constantly reverted to its previous state.

When Jesus would heal a person, you could say that he was praying for that person, but without the need for prior attunement as the mind is already in accordance with the infinite.

Therefore no, its not "Christians doing anything other than waste their time". Though prayer has been stigmatized, it remains as a very powerful tool when understood and applied.

Thank you, that was an interesting description of why many Christtians might pray. I have a further question though. Nothing about the benefits from or reasons you just wrote about require or are even related to asking Yahweh to help someone else. This quote describes how praying, as a general act, can have purpose to a Christian. What I am wondering is: Is there any reason for specifically asking Yahweh to help another person while praying as opposed to just praying for something generic or nothing at all?

 

[ProScribe]

Why do Christians ask for things when they pray?

Because consistent prayer is communion with God.

When we as Christians ask in prayer, we are asking God our Father because He is the Great Provider for those in need.

. . .

 

[razeontherock]

You never say what Yahweh gave us dominion over. I respond much better when people simply state what they mean.

I'm assuming based on your questions you are reading at least some select portions of the Bible? Super foundational things like these parameters would be "in the beginning," i.e. Genesis. Before it goes on to the story of Cain and Abel even. There really is a logic to all this! God is knowable.

At the very first mention of making man, God gives the scope of our Dominion. It's Earth, and everything in it. Including dumping all this oil into the Gulf and doing nothing about it. Chapter 1, verse 26; not so much to read.

However, from our point of view, when there is a sick person, guessing the simple question of whether or not the person will recover is entirely up to chance.

For this to make sense I would have to know who you refer to by the use of "our."

So then it appears that your answer to the question is "I don't know." You do not know whether or not asking Yahweh to help someone else has any benefit for that person. Am I correct?

A. This is a hypothetical situation. Specifics please. Those cannot possibly be given w/o a singular, REAL situation, that at least one of us is actually involved in.
B. Prayer is both communication and communion with God. Don't pigeon hole it into a single dimension, even if it is noble like helping someone else. You say you're seeking to understand, but you won't find the answer of prayer = bad.
C. What you describe in your question is not the prayer of Faith. If a believer were to come from such a place, he/she should certainly not expect anything at all from God. A very strong statement! (Right out of Scripture, written by the Lord's Brother, ol' camel knees)

This:

Anyways, the word "effectual" is an adjective. The statement "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" does not mean that "effectual" is being "availeth." That doesn't even make grammatical sense. In that statement, "effectual" is an adjective modifying the subject ("prayer") of the verb ("availeth"). The thing that is being "availeth" would be the object of the verb. However, the quote contains no object, it just attaches the adverb "much" and ends. Without an object of the verb, what is "availeth" was never stated. Even if "effectual" was intended to be the word despite the fact it is clearly a modifier to the word "prayer", that would make less sense because "effectual" is an adjective, not a noun.

That's a perfect example of "the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, for they are foolishness to it." Sorry don't mean to be harsh, but can you see how you went from asking a question to rejecting the answer? Wires got crossed somewhere. If you can find a Christian with consistently answered prayers, accompanied by signs and wonders confirming the word, who will say that a prayer against God's will is effectual, then you've got something there. HINT: you won't ever find that, and until then may I humbly suggest it means to give God the authority to do what we know He wants?

 

[Whatthedeuce]

Because consistent prayer is communion with God.

When we as Christians ask in prayer, we are asking God our Father because He is the Great Provider for those in need.

. . .

Why would Yahweh being the "Great Provider for those in need" compel you to ask him for things?

 

[ProScribe]

Why would Yahweh being the "Great Provider for those in need" compel you to ask him for things?

I found this Bible passage in the New Testament.

(Matthew 18.19) Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth as to anything, whatever they shall ask, it shall be to them from My Father in Heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

As for the question, I would say it is in His omniscient nature to hear our prayers.

 

[Greg1234]

This quote describes how praying, as a general act, can have purpose to a Christian.

And its effects.

What I am wondering is: Is there any reason for specifically asking Yahweh to help another person while praying as opposed to just praying for something generic or nothing at all?

Just given. The answer is not as simple as often circulated "man in the sky" assertion within atheistic circles. It is a combination of the mind of the entity praying, the mind of the afflicted person, the oneness of reality, or the mind of God the Father from which all things came, and the effect of the mind on the physical body.

 

[razeontherock]

My whatthedeuce (great name btw)

if you're trying to understand, I think you should be asking different questions.
Try these:

It's true, I can't possibly have any idea what you mean by whether or not this church has Christ as it's head.

Forget about the larger issue for now, but ask your friend if Christ is acting as His head when he's involved in this door-to-door prayer ministry, or if he'd be better off spending that time and effort in philanthropy. Isn't that your biggest underlying concern? Put those to him as 2 separate questions, word for word. Wait for his answer to the first before moving on to the second. Let us know what he says.

Your frustration w/ our inability to answer your questions as directly as you'd like comes down to the fact the we don't know if this Church has Christ acting as it's head, at all, or in this particular instance. That really IS what your question should be!

This is confusing to me. You say that trying to do good works without being aligned to Yahweh's will does not bring any good. However, in this same paragraph you endorse organizations that try to do good, and are not spiritually aligned. This appears to directly contradict itself.

Why is "help" in quotation marks? It is a very commonly understood word, and we have been using it without quotes for a while in this discussion already.
Also, what do you mean by a person must be "in Christ" in order to extend help? I can help people no matter where I am or what I believe. If I give food to a starving person, it is helpful regardless of where I do it or what my beliefs are. I find this very confusing.

Again, you are thinking purely in carnal terms. Does the Church exist merely to address the natural man? If so, we are of all men most foolish. If that were the case we might as well close up shop and do something else.

The Church is the bride of Christ, and we are in this world to fulfill the Great Commission, which has to do with the Spiritual man. You cannot compare spiritual things to carnal, but you must compare spiritual things to spiritual; hence, my use of "help" in quotation marks. I posit you have absolutely no clue what it means to "help" someone, but we are all saying it can NOT be done even by a believer if we are not currently & actively being lead by Christ, and functioning within the Body of Christ with Jesus as the head.

IOW, if we were to do things the way it seems best to you right now, we'd all be running around like a chicken with it's head cut off and doing no good whatsoever.

 

[map4]

I don't understand why a Christian would ask Yahweh for something while praying. For example, when a person gets sick, many people who know the patient or have heard of the situation will pray for the patient to get better and overcome the disease. However, if Yahweh is omniscient, then he would know everything about the situation and whether or not it would be best for the patient to recover regardless of whether people pray or not. In these sorts of situations, how are the Christians doing anything other than waste their time by praying for the person to get better?

The gospels tell us that Jesus prayed. And Jesus said He did what He saw His Father do. If Jesus had to pray, then we do too. If we need to know what our Father would have us do, then we need to pray.
Yes, God knows what we need before we pray, Jesus told us this:

Matt. 6:5 Also when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their reward in full already. 6 But when you pray, go into your [most] private room, and, closing the door, pray to your Father, Who is in secret; and your Father, Who sees in secret, will reward you in the open. 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him

He also said:

Mark 11:23 Truly I tell you, whoever says to this mountain, Be lifted up and thrown into the sea! and does not doubt at all in his heart but believes that what he says will take place, it will be done for him. 24For this reason I am telling you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe (trust and be confident) that it is granted to you, and you will [get it]. 25And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop. 26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings.

I believe we should pray for others. Personally, I would not go door to door asking people what they need prayer for unless I KNEW the Holy Spirit was leading me to do that. But, if someone asks for prayer, then I will pray. The question is, how should we pray for that person. We may not know everything that is going on in their lives; we may not know what that person is believing God for. For instance, if someone is sick, they may be praying for doctors to have wisdom to know how to treat them. That is where ‘their faith’ is. Another person with the same sickness may be praying for supernatural healing (beyond what a doctor could do for them). Sometimes we need to know what the other person is believing God to do for them and ‘agree’. Some call this the prayer of agreement and reference the following:

Matt 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

When we don’t know how to pray for someone the Holy Spirit helps us:

Rom. 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Also, we can ask for wisdom:

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

I don’t think praying is a waste of time:

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment

However, we could pray ‘wrong’, or amiss. If we do this then it seems God does not answer our prayers. But if we pray according to His will, then He always hears and answers us:

1 John 5: 14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him

Look at what Jesus prayed:

John 11:38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Prayer is not some ‘que sera sera…whatever will be will be’ thing. Prayer is communication or talking with God. It’s listening to God. It’s seeking, finding and knowing the will of God for our lives….and for others if He chooses to tell us His will for others. If not, it’s back to Romans 8:26-27.
As I stated earlier, I think what we believe when we pray has a lot to do with whether prayer is 'a waste of time' or not.

 

[beforHim]

I've read anout half te posts, and see that whatthedeuce keeps bringing back up te same points over and over, because we are trying to "explain" something without loopholes in our logic. Well, I'll be the first to say:

I am a philosoper and apologist (albeit a very minor league one). I ave tought and thought and thought this through. I have come to one conclusion:
-since we can't know everything about anything, that is:
-since no matter how hard we study any given subject, we'll still come up on logical problems, unsolved questions, seeming contradictions, etc. etc. etc,
-since no matter how much we study any subject, we still never exhaust the knoweledge of the given subject
BUT
at the end of all this we still:
-accept the stuff we figured out to the best of our knowledge and ability. . .
-draw conclusions wich we accept as good and logical
-live out the implications of those conclusions
-etc. etc. etc.

Since we do this with every given subject under the sun, I've often wondered why can we not do this with God? Study God, figure out all we can, and upon drawing the best conclusions possible we go ahead and live with them and accept them.

BUT for some reason, we are expected (by atheists, it seems) to have God 110% figured out (usually by the way of no logical contradictions period), and anytime one little nugget of uncertainty comes in (again, usually in the way of a logical contradiction) we are declared the loser, and the verdict "God doesn't exist" continues to be the winner. Why?! Well. . .

Like I said, since we do this with no other subject, I do not do this with God. And now, upon saying all this, I say:

= =

I totally understand the problems with claiming God to be omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, etc. etc. etc.
and
saying our prayers are answered in a tangible way by God, or in a more direct way: our prayers actually do affect God. He might choose to or not to answer them, and only once we've asked.

I understand VERY well the "problems" with this view, but upon studying the world and such, I have come to this conclusion. Yes, God does answer our prayers in a real way, and only once we've asked Him. (but I believe in a compatibilism of a sorts, in that God can and does obviously act even wen we don't ask, a lot of times).

So that church going door to door and asking for prayer: that time they are praying not being used for physical philantropy- yes, it is helping immensly, and I'd say more immensley than if they never prayed at all and used that extra time for more physical philantropy.

 

[Whatthedeuce]

I am a philosoper and apologist (albeit a very minor league one). I ave tought and thought and thought this through. I have come to one conclusion:
-since we can't know everything about anything, that is:
-since no matter how hard we study any given subject, we'll still come up on logical problems, unsolved questions, seeming contradictions, etc. etc. etc,
-since no matter how much we study any subject, we still never exhaust the knoweledge of the given subject
BUT
at the end of all this we still:
-accept the stuff we figured out to the best of our knowledge and ability. . .
-draw conclusions wich we accept as good and logical
-live out the implications of those conclusions
-etc. etc. etc.

No matter how much we study a given subject, I agree, there may be unsolved questions. In some subjects, there may also be seeming contradictions. However, in almost every subject there are no logical problems.
This is very important because unsolved questions and seeming contradictions tell us that we do not know everything and that we need to study, examine and research further. However, logical problems tell us that we have done something wrong, that something we currently think is true is actually false. Barring philosophy and theology (the two fields which do not necessarily correspond to reality) I know of no fields which contain logical problems. If a field contains logical problems, then we are rendered incapable of following your suggestion of drawing conclusions which we accept as logical.

Since we do this with every given subject under the sun, I've often wondered why can we not do this with God? Study God, figure out all we can, and upon drawing the best conclusions possible we go ahead and live with them and accept them.

In my opinion, there are three reasons we cannot do this with theology.
1. theology contains logical problems, other fields do not have these problems
2. in theology there is no standard or method with which to correct errors and asses accuracy. Other fields have standards and methods to correct errors and asses accuracy.
3. In theology, there are many accepted contradictory views which are equally justified. In other fields when there are equally justified competing claims, none of them is accepted as being the correct one.

BUT for some reason, we are expected (by atheists, it seems) to have God 110% figured out (usually by the way of no logical contradictions period), and anytime one little nugget of uncertainty comes in (again, usually in the way of a logical contradiction) we are declared the loser, and the verdict "God doesn't exist" continues to be the winner. Why?! Well. . .

Like I said, since we do this with no other subject, I do not do this with God.

The reason for this is that when there is a logical contradiction, it means we have made a false assumption or a false step in reasoning.

I'm not sure why you keep saying we don't do this with other subjects. We certainly do. In other subjects when logical contradictions arise, we correct them. If they cannot be corrected, then we know that we have made a false assumption.

I totally understand the problems with claiming God to be omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, etc. etc. etc.
and
saying our prayers are answered in a tangible way by God, or in a more direct way: our prayers actually do affect God. He might choose to or not to answer them, and only once we've asked.

I don't necessarily expect people to tell me that their prayers have real tangible effects. When people are constantly making direct requests to Yahweh, I think that the most likely reason is that they ask Yahweh for things for the same reason that they ask people for things. However, I don't require the justification to come in this form.

I understand VERY well the "problems" with this view, but upon studying the world and such, I have come to this conclusion. Yes, God does answer our prayers in a real way, and only once we've asked Him. (but I believe in a compatibilism of a sorts, in that God can and does obviously act even wen we don't ask, a lot of times).

So, then what makes you come to that conclusion? There must be some reason or reasons that you feel that the "problems" are resolvable even if they haven't been resolved yet. Furthermore, when you say Yahweh answers your prayers in a "real way" what do you mean by "real"?