Why Do Catholics

[Albion]

Amen, ... this is what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices.

As said before in other words, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[AHJE]

Yes, indeed, ... the only way to really know this is to turn toward God as God,

to Mary, Full of Grace, as the Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us),

and to the Saints as the Handiworks of God's manifold grace.

Try it yourself. In your heart you know who God is and who is not.

Peace be with you.

 

[Albion]

to Mary, Full of Grace, as the Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us),

and to the Saints as the Handiworks of God's manifold grace.

It seems that you've said this, almost identically, in every post to me.

For the last time, honoring Mary is not at question, and we all know her role in the Incarnation. But if you cannot appreciate or acknowledge that it is possible to go too far while attempting to honoring Mary (or any other saint), there doesn't seem to be anything more to discuss.

DO you think that there are devotions that could be abusive, cross the line from paying respect and honor into worship, whether or not intended as such?

__No. It's "anything goes" so long as you mean well.

__Yes. There is a level of homage that belongs to God alone.

 

[AHJE]

It seems that you've said this, almost identically, in every post to me.

For the last time, honoring Mary is not at question, and we all know her role in the Incarnation. But if you cannot appreciate or acknowledge that it is possible to go too far while attempting to honoring Mary (or any other saint), there doesn't seem to be anything more to discuss.

DO you think that there are devotions that could be abusive, cross the line from paying respect and honor into worship, whether or not intended as such?

__No. It's "anything goes" so long as you mean well.

__Yes. There is a level of homage that belongs to God alone.

Dear Albion,

You raise a fine point here, which i'd like to address.

The issue of going too far in devotion to Holy Mary or the Saints in Heaven.

Catholics are formed by the Teaching of Christ and by the Sacred Liturgy (Christian Worship) to have a real sense of the Incomprehensible grandeur of God Most High. And the centrality of Jesus truly PRESENT among us in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is KEY. The prayers to God, ... our sense of God is central and primary in all things.

Even when we pray to Mary or the Saints, ... we usually begin with the Sign of the Cross ... "In the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (These aren't just words or something trivial ... we are invoking the Divine Presence of God and being mindful of Jesus Saving Death on the Cross when we do this ... and His Incarnation) ...

So it is important to understand first ... what God means to us Catholics and how we Worship and Adore God ... what kinds of words we use to PRAY to Him Who is the Tri-Personal God.

Knowing this will help you to see that we are formed and our consciences are very formed to know the difference between God and Holy Mary and the Saints in Heaven.

Now, ... the Church does indeed warn the faithful against any excesses in devotion to Mary that would be in violation against the 1st Commandment. Of course, ... that is a given. The Church doesn't want anyone to go into any extreme and realizing that any person may be superstitious enough to do so ... the Church warns against superstition or excessive Marian devotion.

But also it must be said that even if someone were to cross some line ... I personally feel that it is very very very rare that the person actually is fully aware of it or that he fully consents with his will to do such a grave matter.
This, of course, diminishes moral culpability and is probably not a MORTAL SIN (a sin unto death).

But if I saw a fellow brother committing this kind of thing, I would say something to him to counsel him and guide him.

One can commit superstition against the Most High God as well in the way that we pray ... trying to manipulate God or trying to do external things without the proper interior dispositions ... treating the things of God, like a Bible, as if it were magic or something ... this is wacky as well.

God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Catholics are formed by the Teaching of Christ and by the Sacred Liturgy (Christian Worship) to have a real sense of the Incomprehensible grandeur of God Most High. And the centrality of Jesus truly PRESENT among us in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is KEY. The prayers to God, ... our sense of God is central and primary in all things.

Catholics aren't unique in that regard, but it isn't what we were discussing.

Now, ... the Church does indeed warn the faithful against any excesses in devotion to Mary that would be in violation against the 1st Commandment. Of course, ... that is a given.

I am not familiar with that. What excesses have been warned against in particular?

the Church warns against superstition or excessive Marian devotion.

As I said, what are some examples of a superstitious or excessive devotion? paying homage to a stain on a silo doesn't do it, and apparitions that have not been validated by the church still attract thousands of devotees, including clergy. So what kind of excessive devotion has the church squelched?

But if I saw a fellow brother committing this kind of thing, I would say something to him to counsel him and guide him.

WHAT kind of thing? Please be specific and show us something that the church has acted to prohibit or at least denounce.

 

[AHJE]

Dear Albion,

I found a case where the Church acted to condemn, as idolatry, a heresy of a group of people called the Collyridians who sought to deify the Blessed Virgin Mary.


I believe that the following link should answer your questions well enough:

[Sorry, ... I still need 50 posts to post a link ... but you may go to the EWTN library and just research this using the word "Collyridianism" ... and the article is written by Patrick Madrid ... OK? I hope you find it.]

I hope you see now that the Church would not tolerate any excesses in this direction of Worshipping Mary.



God bless you.

 

[christseeker45]

Here you go:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT

 

[Albion]

Dear Albion,

I found a case where the Church acted to condemn, as idolatry, a heresy a group of people called the Collyridians who sought to deify the Blessed Virgin Mary.


I believe that the following link should answer your questions well enough:

[Sorry, ... I still need 50 posts to post a link ... but you may go to the EWTN library and just research this using the word "Collyridianism" ... and the article is written by Patrick Madrid ... OK? I hope you find it.]

I hope you see now that the Church would not tolerate any excesses in this direction of Worshipping Mary.



God bless you.

I do thank you for looking into this. I've never heard of this group, and it deserved a look by me. However, doesn't this almost prove my point? I mean if it takes a formal, organized effort that treats Mary as a god before the church will take a stand, what, we may wonder, passes inspection?

You have to admit that this group took it to about as far an extreme as can be imagined. From what I read, this happened about 1900 years ago and represented almost a separate religion. It was opposed mainly by one bishop.

So, while being reassured that there is a limit that will bring a response from church authorities, I still have to think that a reasonable person can appreciate that devotions (mostly of a more modern origin) that are just barely on the safe side of the line that the Collyridians represent can well be thought improper by some of us, too. Altars. Grottos. bowing. kneeling, prayers that attribute god-like authority it to her, the mediatrix of all graces, co-redeemer of the world, and so on is all very questionable in our view. It is not that Mary shouldn't be honored at all.

 

[Catherineanne]

Catholic liturgy is very rich, and quite complex. What is offered to God is very distinct; he alone is worshipped and glorified; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A Catholic does not ever pray alone. We pray alongside our brothers and sisters here on earth, whose prayers are offered constantly for one another and for the world, and we pray alongside those who are in eternity with God, and who also pray for us and with us. All of these prayers are directed towards God, and alongside one another.

There are no dead in Christ, because our God is the God of the Living, not the dead, as has been said many times on this thread. The verse from Ecclesiastes which has been quoted to show that the dead are not alive does not refer to Christian belief. It is a reference to the Jewish concept of Sheol, not to either heaven or hell.

The comment that our God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not figurative, as has been asserted, but literal. Those saints are in eternity with God, and their prayers join with ours when we intercede for the world. We know it is literal because at the transfiguration Peter, James and John see Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. They are our eye witnesses of the reality of eternal life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

We can pray to God, and the saints both on earth and in eternity can also pray to God. God is so gracious that he does not demand a hundred, or a thousand; he is happy with even two or three of us combining to ask him for his mercy on those around us. God is good.

Our Lady is foremost among the saints because God chose her, uniquely in all of human history, to bear his Son. As the mother of Our Lord she becomes our mother as well, when we are adopted as the children of God. We can ask her in particular to join her prayers with ours, as we worship God, and as we intercede for one another. Alternatively, we can do even better; we can join our prayers with hers, as she intercedes for the world, in eternity.

As at the wedding at Cana, Our Lady always directs us to her Son, and tells us to do as he tells us to do. And her example to us is always that of obedience to God's will, and acceptance of his direction in our lives. That is why she is respected so much, and that is why she is first among the saints.

However, she is not worshipped as God is worshipped. Rather, she worships him with us, and indeed, shows us how best to do it; by saying, 'Let it be done to me according to thy will' and meaning it.

 

[AHJE]

I do thank you for looking into this. I've never heard of this group, and it deserved a look by me. However, doesn't this almost prove my point? I mean if it takes a formal, organized effort that treats Mary as a god before the church will take a stand, what, we may wonder, passes inspection?

Hyper-Dulia towards Mary is of the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us how to adore God and how to give due honor to Mary. The Holy Spirit flies to a person who is in conscious fellowship with Mary. Consider the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit in bringing to us the Mystery of the Incarnation. This is why Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit (who overshadowed her [St. Luke 1:34] even as the CLOUD overshadowed the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament.)

You have to admit that this group took it to about as far an extreme as can be imagined. From what I read, this happened about 1900 years ago and represented almost a separate religion. It was opposed mainly by one bishop.

I believe it was in the year 350-400? They were heretics and idolaters according to the Church. And their heresy was rightly condemned.

So, while being reassured that there is a limit that will bring a response from church authorities, I still have to think that a reasonable person can appreciate that devotions (mostly of a more modern origin) that are just barely on the safe side of the line that the Collyridians represent can well be thought improper by some of us, too. Altars. Grottos. bowing. kneeling, prayers that attribute god-like authority it to her, the mediatrix of all graces, co-redeemer of the world, and so on is all very questionable in our view. It is not that Mary shouldn't be honored at all.

I can appreciate your difficulty as a non-Catholic looking from the outside in, ... but this is, in all honesty, not a problem for me. We baptized persons all are, in a sense, co-redeemers inasmuch as we share in the mission of Jesus Christ. We just say that Mary is such in a manner Par Excellence. Read Col. 1:24:

"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: ..." (Colossians 1:24, DRB)

And now look at Holy Mary's unique participation in the sufferings of Christ:

This is what Simeon, the old man, said to Holy Mary: "And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed." (St. Luke 2:35, DRB) (... A very mysterious verse, don't you think?)

I see Holy Mary as the gift of the Dying Christ ... as Mother of the Church.
(Who would refuse a gift from a dying man, ... let alone the Gift of the Dying God-Man, the Crucified Lord and King of the Jews?)

It was excrutiating for Jesus to speak while asfixiating to death on the Cross. He would have to lift himself and his sore muscles would explode in pain just to utter one word ... and Jesus managed to say to us his beloved disciples: Behold, ... YOUR MOTHER. (St. John 19:27)

May we, in imitation of the Beloved Disciple, take Holy Mary, Full of Grace, unto our own.

"... And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." (St. John 19:27, DRB)


God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Hyper-Dulia towards Mary is of the Holy Spirit.

How so?

And it is the Holy Spirit that teaches us how to adore God and how to give due honor to Mary.

How do you know that to be so?

The Holy Spirit flies to a person who is in conscious fellowship with Mary.

Where'd you get that?

Consider the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit in bringing to us the Mystery of the Incarnation. This is why Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit (who overshadowed her [St. Luke 1:34] even as the CLOUD overshadowed the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament.)

That doesn't have anything to do with what you said above. Honoring Mary isn't the issue; it's HOW the honoring is done. Wouldn't it be great if you actually were willing to address that?

Sure you can claim the Holy Spirit is the cause of just about anything. The Collyridians probably used that justification, too. In the past several days, I've read on these forums that every individual person gets his doctrines straight from the HS, no need for either Scripture or Tradition or a church. Also that speaking in tongues or handling snakes is of the Holy Spirit. Everyone claims "the Holy Spirit made me do it" whatever practice that person is engaged in.

I can appreciate your difficulty as a non-Catholic looking from the outside in,

Well, I was a Roman Catholic for a lot longer than you've been one, but I've come to expect that line from every recent convert who somehow thinks that becoming a member of the RCC automatically makes him a theologian and church historian.

I'm sorry that you've decided to take refuge behind church membership, but that's what happens when the discussion gets down to the brass tacks. It's too bad, though, because this is potentially a most interesting issue, IMO.

Blessings.

 

[AHJE]

How so?



How do you know that to be so?

Where'd you get that?


That doesn't have anything to do with what you said above. Honoring Mary isn't the issue; it's HOW the honoring is done. Wouldn't it be great if you actually were willing to address that?

Sure you can claim the Holy Spirit is the cause of just about anything. The Collyridians probably used that justification, too. In the past several days, I've read on these forums that every individual person gets his doctrines straight from the HS, no need for either Scripture or Tradition or a church. Also that speaking in tongues or handling snakes is of the Holy Spirit. Everyone claims "the Holy Spirit made me do it" whatever practice that person is engaged in.



Well, I was a Roman Catholic for a lot longer than you've been one, but I've come to expect that line from every recent convert who somehow thinks that becoming a member of the RCC automatically makes him a theologian and church historian.

I'm sorry that you've decided to take refuge behind church membership, but that's what happens when the discussion gets down to the brass tacks. It's too bad, though, because this is potentially a most interesting issue, IMO.

Blessings.

Dear Albion,

The reason why I invoked the Church in this matter is because that is where you have to go to know alot more about Mary, ... its that simple. Having got passed some rough issues with you ... I thought I'd share some of the things that the Church teaches on the Blessed Mother and her relationship to God the Holy Spirit.

What I said is of the Holy Spirit because the Church teaches it. Sacred Writing says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Therefore, the Church is a trustworthy means of knowing the Word of God.

You were inquiring about some of the practices about Holy Mary ... so I shared some things that would reassure you that NORMALLY, as Scripture states, ... the Holy Spirit teaches us HOW to pray. So why is it so difficult to see that the same Spirit shows us how to honor the Saints and give due honor to the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us)?

And having been Catholic, ... you ought to know better than anyone that we do not worship the Blessed Mother.

As I said before, ... we do not offer up sacrifice to Holy Mary. We offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to God the Father, through the Son, IN the Holy Spirit.

We PRAY the Gospel through the Most Holy Rosary.

We have Holy Days of Obligation whereby we commemorate the Marian Dogmas like August 15, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We ask for Holy Mary's intercession (that she take our prayers add her own to them and present them to her Divine Son, Who is the One Mediator between God and men.)

We have images of Holy Mary, paintings and statues.

We wear a scapular (which is like wearing a thread of the Immaculate Mary's garment).

We have our children place a crown of flowers upon the statue of Holy Mary who is the Queen of Heaven.

We kneel before statues of Holy Mary and petition for her maternal assistance.

We light candles for her.

And saturdays are dedicated to Blessed Mother.



Would you like to know more? I am not ashamed of my Mother in the order of grace. She is more my mother than my earthly mother is.

God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Dear Albion,

The reason why I invoked the Church in this matter is because that is where you have to go to know alot more about Mary, ... its that simple. Having got passed some rough issues with you ... I thought I'd share some of the things that the Church teaches on the Blessed Mother and her relationship to God the Holy Spirit.

What I said is of the Holy Spirit because the Church teaches it. Sacred Writing says in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Therefore, the Church is a trustworthy means of knowing the Word of God.

You were inquiring about some of the practices about Holy Mary ... so I shared some things that would reassure you that NORMALLY, as Scripture states, ... the Holy Spirit teaches us HOW to pray. So why is it so difficult to see that the same Spirit shows us how to honor the Saints and give due honor to the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us)?

The answer to the last point is that honoring her is not the issue, but how it's done, and what specifically the devotion is. I think I made that point before. As to the former matter you mention, don't assume that 1) the Roman Catholic Church is being singled out. There are plenty of Episcopalians, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Old Catholics, etc. who engage in similar behavior, or 2) that the Protestants here fell off the theological turnip truck yesterday, such that it's necessary to give them the crash course in Catholicism.

Most of them are better informed about the Catholic Church than the recent converts to Catholicism here who are anxious to testify to the new faith they've found. I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I would wait to be asked.

And having been Catholic, ... you ought to know better than anyone that we do not worship the Blessed Mother.

Many don't. Some do.

As I said before, ... we do not offer up sacrifice to Holy Mary. We offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to God the Father, through the Son, IN the Holy Spirit.

OK, but we really need to look at the whole picture. I see that you have done some of that below, so I'll read it first before commenting.

We PRAY the Gospel through the Most Holy Rosary.

We have Holy Days of Obligation whereby we commemorate the Marian Dogmas like August 15, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We ask for Holy Mary's intercession (that she take our prayers add her own to them and present them to her Divine Son, Who is the One Mediator between God and men.)

We have images of Holy Mary, paintings and statues.

We wear a scapular (which is like wearing a thread of the Immaculate Mary's garment).

We have our children place a crown of flowers upon the statue of Holy Mary who is the Queen of Heaven.

We kneel before statues of Holy Mary and petition for her maternal assistance.

We light candles for her.

And saturdays are dedicated to Blessed Mother.

OK. We're in the area of concern, so thanks for that. In short, I think some of this is benign, but I also think some of it is really a wrongful practice. I think that we've done so well by approaching this systematically, that I'll wait at this point to see if you want to comment before going further.

 

[AHJE]

^ Just that these are some of the ways that we give expression to that very special and unique honor that is due to the Blessed Mother of Him who is our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

We PRAY the Gospel through the Most Holy Rosary.

We have Holy Days of Obligation whereby we commemorate the Marian Dogmas like August 15, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We ask for Holy Mary's intercession (that she take our prayers add her own to them and present them to her Divine Son, Who is the One Mediator between God and men.)

We have images of Holy Mary, paintings and statues.

We wear a scapular (which is like wearing a thread of the Immaculate Mary's garment).

We have our children place a crown of flowers upon the statue of Holy Mary who is the Queen of Heaven.

We kneel before statues of Holy Mary and petition for her maternal assistance.

We light candles for her.

And saturdays are dedicated to Blessed Mother.

^ Just that these are some of the ways that we give expression to that very special and unique honor that is due to the Blessed Mother of Him who is our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Right. We now come to the part where we disagree and there's probably no way for one of us to win over the other, so we can just say that we were able to air the issues in a calm, organized manner.

As for the above items, yes, they are all done by Catholics and do represent most of the devotions that anyone would call standard. For myself, some are benign and I don't give them much thought. That would include celebrating special days such as the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception (although I don't believe there were such events) and, I might add, naming churches and having pictures, etc.

On the other hand, the rosary and the scapular are dedicated to her, not God, and are supposed to confer certain spiritual benefits, again through the power of the saint. That's superstition. Kneeling or lighting a candle (what does lighting a candle FOR her mean, anyway?), or May festivals, are probably not wrong when considered individually. But when all are present in a culture of devotion to the Virgin, along with such pious legends about Mary as considering her a co-redeemer of the world, ever-Virgin, co-mediator of all graces, Immaculately Conceived, Assumed into heaven bodily, plus the fascination with supposed images of her appearing in window rerflections and so on, and it's way over the line. It's far more than mere honor.

In short, that's wrong IMO, and it's made worse by being based upon nothing verifiable. It's just folklore that's perpetuated by the church because of the presumption that heightening devotion to Mary is more important than how it's done. It verges upon worship, to say the least. Nor does it become better if one thinks to himself that there is also a higher kind of worship intended for God.

As I said much closer to the start of our little talk, it's not a matter of honoring or not honoring her; it's how much and in what manner.

 

[Ashlantal]

Being completely honest , I cringe every time I read and see Holy, Blessed, Our Mother, etc. in front of Mary . A line is being crossed by Catholics that should never be crossed .

And AHJE , the majority the practices you listed regarding veneration of Mary are atrociously idolatrous . I don't understand how you can't realize that . Veneration of Mary and saints simply is not biblical , don't do it .

 

[Ashlantal]

Right. We now come to the part where we disagree and there's probably no way for one of us to win over the other, so we can just say that we were able to air the issues in a calm, organized manner.

As for the above items, yes, they are all done by Catholics and do represent most of the devotions that anyone would call standard. For myself, some are benign and I don't give them much thought. That would include celebrating special days such as the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception (although I don't believe there were such events) and, I might add, naming churches and having pictures, etc.

On the other hand, the rosary and the scapular are dedicated to her, not God, and are supposed to confer certain spiritual benefits, again through the power of the saint. That's superstition. Kneeling or lighting a candle (what does lighting a candle FOR her mean, anyway?), or May festivals, are probably not wrong when considered individually. But when all are present in a culture of devotion to the Virgin, along with such pious legends about Mary as considering her a co-redeemer of the world, ever-Virgin, co-mediator of all graces, Immaculately Conceived, Assumed into heaven bodily, plus the fascination with supposed images of her appearing in window rerflections and so on, and it's way over the line. It's far more than mere honor.

In short, that's wrong IMO, and it's made worse by being based upon nothing verifiable. It's just folklore that's perpetuated by the church because of the presumption that heightening devotion to Mary is more important than how it's done. It verges upon worship, to say the least. Nor does it become better if one thinks to himself that there is also a higher kind of worship intended for God.

As I said much closer to the start of our little talk, it's not a matter of honoring or not honoring her; it's how much and in what manner.

Thank you Albion . This is basically a drawn out version of my last post , my exact thoughts .

 

[AHJE]

Right. We now come to the part where we disagree and there's probably no way for one of us to win over the other, so we can just say that we were able to air the issues in a calm, organized manner.

I'm ok with that, ... you are free to seek Jesus and God according to the lights that God has given you but I encourage you to inform your conscience more on how God has revealed Himself to us. The Bible is not the only mode of transmitting the Word of God. This is not taught in Sacred Writing. I hope that you are able to admit this.

As for the above items, yes, they are all done by Catholics and do represent most of the devotions that anyone would call standard. For myself, some are benign and I don't give them much thought. That would include celebrating special days such as the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception (although I don't believe there were such events) and, I might add, naming churches and having pictures, etc.

Dogmas for Catholics are the Word of God ... They are Divinely Revealed ... no one made them up. This is why these Truths or events are so celebrated. It is part of the Gospel. Any part of the Gospel touches on the whole of it like a seamless thread.

On the other hand, the rosary and the scapular are dedicated to her, not God, and are supposed to confer certain spiritual benefits, again through the power of the saint. That's superstition.

The Rosary ... is the very prayer of the Gospel ... what do you have against the Gospel? The scapular is not worn for any kind of magical purposes and it is not superstitious. There are promises attached to it though by our Lady. Is it wrong to believe in the promises made by the Mother of our Saviour?

Kneeling or lighting a candle (what does lighting a candle FOR her mean, anyway?), or May festivals, are probably not wrong when considered individually.

This is piety and the expression of love and affection for our Mother in the order of grace. That's right May is called the month of Mary. See how much we love our Blessed Mother?

But when all are present in a culture of devotion to the Virgin, along with such pious legends about Mary as considering her a co-redeemer of the world

I covered this before in a previous post in this thread. All who are baptized have a participation in the mission of Christ the Redeemer. Mary has a participation in a manner Par Excellence. "CO-" ... does that mean anything to you? ... We are not calling Holy Mary the Redeemer of the human race.

, ever-Virgin,

This is definitely Biblical.

co-mediator of all graces,

Amen, ... that is, Mediatrix of all graces. That is, God has willed to give us ALL through Mary ... This is seen by the fact that He gave us His Only Begotten Son through Mary and through her consent and through her Immaculate Womb. Thus, all the graces that every comes to me or you or anyone comes from God Most High, through Jesus Christ, In the Holy Spirit, ... but before it reaches us they first pass by the hands of the Immaculate Mary. This is true whether you honor Mary or not. There is no grace that ever comes to man that does not first pass by Holy Mary. I believe that it was Calvin that called Mary the treasurer of all graces? (I'm not sure but I think it was him.)

Immaculately Conceived,

Amen. Just read real closely Gen 3:15 and examine the greek of St. Luke 1:28.

Assumed into heaven bodily,

Amen again, ... Just look at Rev. 12:1, 5.

plus the fascination with supposed images of her appearing in window rerflections and so on,

The Church does not approve every single theory out there. If people seen something that's up to their own conscience to decide.

and it's way over the line. It's far more than mere honor.

Says who? NOT the Holy Spirit. In fact, I am ashamed that I do not render a more true devotion to the Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us).

In short, that's wrong IMO, and it's made worse by being based upon nothing verifiable.

Divine Tradition [not human tradition] is the Word of God whether you believe it or not. [see 2 Thes. 2:15, 1 Thes. 2:13]

It's just folklore that's perpetuated by the church because of the presumption that heightening devotion to Mary is more important than how it's done. It verges upon worship, to say the least. Nor does it become better if one thinks to himself that there is also a higher kind of worship intended for God.

As I said much closer to the start of our little talk, it's not a matter of honoring or not honoring her; it's how much and in what manner.

If you knew the prerogatives and priviliges that God has granted to the All-Holy Mary you would take back much of what you have posted. And you would blush for shame before her Divine Son. (I'm just giving you my impression in the light of what is given me by the grace of God the Holy Spirit).


God love you, ...

--AHJE.

 

[AHJE]

Dear Contented,

Peace be with you,

YOU WROTE:

<staff edit>

I would appreciate it if you not project unto us your own misconceived notions of the Holy Catholic Church. Can you establish that there is a causal connection between paganism and the Roman Catholic Church? For ex., there were many stories and myths of a worldwide flood before the People of God received the account of Noah and the Flood in Genesis. Are we to think that it was a myth simply BECAUSE pagans also believed in a great flood?

There are parallels also of virgin births in Egyptian mythology ... are we to now deny the Virgin Birth of Messiah simply BECAUSE of the former? Where is the causal relationship between the two?



God bless you.

PS. Be very careful what you call evil. You may actually be in danger of committing blasphemy.

 

[AHJE]

Being completely honest , I cringe every time I read and see Holy, Blessed, Our Mother, etc. in front of Mary .

Why do you feel that way about the Blessed Virgin Mary? She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. Does that affect you at all?

A line is being crossed by Catholics that should never be crossed .

Christ has united heaven and earth by the blood of His Cross and our Divine Worship of God in the Divine Liturgy makes all of heaven present to us here on earth. In the Apostles Creed it says that we believe in the communion of Saints. We speak to the Saints and to Mary because of this communion in Christ.

And AHJE , the majority the practices you listed regarding veneration of Mary are atrociously idolatrous . I don't understand how you can't realize that . Veneration of Mary and saints simply is not biblical , don't do it .

Can you show me from the Holy Bible where God forbids the Hyper-Veneration of Mary in the ways that I listed above? Remember that just because something is not stated explicitly in Sacred Writing it does not mean

(1) that it is not the Word of God.
(2) that it is not good.


Peace be with you.
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The Word of God in Divine Tradition: 2 Thes. 2:15 and 1 Thes. 2:13