Why Do Catholics

[AHJE]

Peace be to all,

Hi, ... I am Catholic by grace and I am Christian because I am Catholic.

Thanks be to God for every gift and blessing through Jesus Christ IN the Holy Spirit.

We give the Honor that is due to God alone (which is called Latria, as opposed to idol -latria) to the One True God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and to the God of Jacob.

We Adore/Worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.

The honor that is given to saints is called "dulia", veneration.
The Honor that is given to the Blessed Mother, ... Holy Mary, Full of Grace, is called "Hyper-Dulia" or Hyper-Veneration.

This is infinitely different from Latria ... which is due to God alone.

I hope this puts the whole matter to rest.

Peace be to you.

 

[christseeker45]

Well that's good news.

What do Catholic do with Mary then? Pray to her?

Ask for prayers just like you ask your friend

 

[steve_bakr]

Well that's good news.

What do Catholic do with Mary then? Pray to her?

We say the Hail Mary, and ask for her prayers.

 

[Ashlantal]

Ask for prayers just like you ask your friend

I understand Mary & the saints are physically dead , thus they are very much alive in Heaven w/ the Father right now . Therefore they are more than likely interceding on our behalf and praying for us down here on earth. But I don't think it's biblical to "pray" to them, I don't even think you can communicate w/ the dead. I think it's a one way thing: them praying for us, which I wholeheartedly believe is happening at this very moment.

You can ask people living here on earth for intercessory, that's fine. As for personal prayers, I believe it's only right that we focus our all on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 22:37-38 - Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. | Not spend some time praying to saints and Mary. There is nothing special about them. They are humans just like us. Anyone who is a true follower of Christ is technically a saint !

I'm also uncomfortable w/ the attributes given to these people in descriptions & prayers and the language used to "venerate" them, which clearly idolizes the subjects in discussion.

 

[AHJE]

Dear Dpiiiius,

Peace be with you,

If you feel uncomfortable, ... well, ... that is a feeling and it may be due to a mis-informed conscience that of course you are obliged to follow since your conscience was given by God. But conscience needs to constantly be in-formed.

Veneration is not Adoration.
Dulia is not Latria.

When you show care for a pet dog. This is far different than the honor and love you show your mother and father, correct? And you know in your heart the vast distinction between the two.

Well, the honor that we render unto the Saints (in Heaven) and the Special Honor we render unto the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) is still infinitely different from the HONOR that we render unto God alone ... LATRIA, Adoration.

Even in the Holy Bible we see that there are degrees of honor, for example to a Priest/Presbyter who presides well is deserving of "double honor". (see 1 Tim 5:17)

Giving honor where honor is due is in keeping with the virtue of justice, which calls us to give to others what they justly deserve. If the President came to your house, it is right to give him due honor don't you think, in virtue of his office? How would it seem to you if someone just wizzed by the President and didn't say a word to him? Wouldn't that seem out of place to you as an American citizen? Wouldn't that amount to a dis-honor?

I think that many times sincere seekers of Jesus become so preoccupied with this issue that they neglect to see how Jesus is OFFENDED when we FAIL to Hyper-Venerate His Blessed Mother Mary or Venerate His Saints, which are His Handiworks of grace. Imagine if you and Jesus were in the kitchen and His Blessed Mother was there and you totally ignored her because you believed you should just speak ONLY with her Son. How do you think Jesus would feel about this?

God bless you.

 

[2CentsEach]

Can you provide Scriptural reasons to bless/exalt Jesus' mother Mary? Because I can't find any. As far as I am concerned (and the Holy Bible too), Mary isn't to be exalted higher than other humans and should form no part of our worship to God

 

[bobsterInJapan]

I think that many times sincere seekers of Jesus become so preoccupied with this issue that they neglect to see how Jesus is OFFENDED when we FAIL to Hyper-Venerate His Blessed Mother Mary or Venerate His Saints, which are His Handiworks of grace. Imagine if you and Jesus were in the kitchen and His Blessed Mother was there and you totally ignored her because you believed you should just speak ONLY with her Son. How do you think Jesus would feel about this?

God bless you.

I don't know of any scripture that point to us being required to hyper-venerate Mary or saints, or of God or Jesus being offended if we don't. Quite the opposite, actually. Look at this:

Matthew 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

...so that's what I do. Where does it say or suggest "listen to Mary", "give special honour to Mary", or "ask Mary for her prayers".

All I can find is "you are blessed Mary!" and that's it. Jesus ignored Mary and his siblings when his disciples informed him that they were waiting for him and said to the crowd of followers "you are my mother, my brothers and sisters". (quoted in my previous post somewhere).

 

[Ashlantal]

Dear Dpiiiius,

Peace be with you,

If you feel uncomfortable, ... well, ... that is a feeling and it may be due to a mis-informed conscience that of course you are obliged to follow since your conscience was given by God. But conscience needs to constantly be in-formed.

Veneration is not Adoration.
Dulia is not Latria.

When you show care for a pet dog. This is far different than the honor and love you show your mother and father, correct? And you know in your heart the vast distinction between the two.

Well, the honor that we render unto the Saints (in Heaven) and the Special Honor we render unto the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) is still infinitely different from the HONOR that we render unto God alone ... LATRIA, Adoration.

Even in the Holy Bible we see that there are degrees of honor, for example to a Priest/Presbyter who presides well is deserving of "double honor". (see 1 Tim 5:17)

Giving honor where honor is due is in keeping with the virtue of justice, which calls us to give to others what they justly deserve. If the President came to your house, it is right to give him due honor don't you think, in virtue of his office? How would it seem to you if someone just wizzed by the President and didn't say a word to him? Wouldn't that seem out of place to you as an American citizen? Wouldn't that amount to a dis-honor?

I think that many times sincere seekers of Jesus become so preoccupied with this issue that they neglect to see how Jesus is OFFENDED when we FAIL to Hyper-Venerate His Blessed Mother Mary or Venerate His Saints, which are His Handiworks of grace. Imagine if you and Jesus were in the kitchen and His Blessed Mother was there and you totally ignored her because you believed you should just speak ONLY with her Son. How do you think Jesus would feel about this?

God bless you.

God bless you too ! I appreciate the kindness and patience you showed in your explanation My question for you is do you think it's a sin if we don't honor these people ? Because you just said Jesus gets offended if we don't. I respectfully disagree w/ you.

Another concern I have w/ the RCC is their concept of Purgatory, which is not found in the Bible.

But the biggest concern is the whole issue of priests being called Father, telling people to do a certain amount of works in order to be forgiven, and actually forgiving sins after ! That's a BIGGG no-no :0

 

[AHJE]

^ For starters, ... you may look at St. Luke 1:48,

"... for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

compare this with the manner in which St. Gabriel the Archangel and St. Elizabeth CALLED Mary "Blessed" (see St. Luke 1:28 and St. Luke 1:42).

Don't you think that we ought to imitate an envoy of God and a woman filled with the Holy Spirit in calling Mary "blessed"?

As for the exalting part ... It is God who has exalted Mary due to her great humility (St. Luke 1:48)

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; ..." see v. 52 also.

It is God who has placed the Mother of His Eternal Son where she is. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. Her honor is relative always to Who her Divine Son IS. All honor rendered unto Mary, the Church teaches, is Christocentric and always leads to Christ.

Mary is always saying "Do whatever he tells you" as can be seen in John 2.

She is so humble that when we say "Mary" ... she says "God". She is always pointing us to God. She herself would be offended if someone gave her Latria or Adoration/Worship which is meant for God ALONE.

I like to say that going to Mary catapults us into deeper love for Christ ... for God.

Why is it this way? ... Because it has pleased God ... it is His Divine Will.

When Jesus spoke his Third Word from the Cross "Behold your Mother" (St. John) He was not only directing Himself to the Beloved Disciple but to ALL BELOVED DISCIPLES.

This is the Church's understanding of that verse.

Mary, Full of Grace, ... is the gift of the Dying Christ.

Alleluia! To Christ be all the Glory. AMEN.

God bless you.

 

[2CentsEach]

Yes, Mary was blessed. But she passed away. Jesus said we are to believe in Him and that He is the only way to God. Mary can't also lead us to God then.

 

[2CentsEach]

My point is that Mary passed away just like any other human being. Jesus came so we could have direct communication with Him and God the Father - so we don't need a priest, Mary or any other person between us and God - we only need the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[bobsterInJapan]

^ For starters, ... you may look at St. Luke 1:48,

"... for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

compare this with the manner in which St. Gabriel the Archangel and St. Elizabeth CALLED Mary "Blessed" (see St. Luke 1:28 and St. Luke 1:42).

Don't you think that we ought to imitate an envoy of God and a woman filled with the Holy Spirit in calling Mary "blessed"?

As for the exalting part ... It is God who has exalted Mary due to her great humility (St. Luke 1:48)

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; ..." see v. 52 also.

It is God who has placed the Mother of His Eternal Son where she is. She is the Mother of the Second Person of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity. Her honor is relative always to Who her Divine Son IS. All honor rendered unto Mary, the Church teaches, is Christocentric and always leads to Christ.

Mary is always saying "Do whatever he tells you" as can be seen in John 2.

She is so humble that when we say "Mary" ... she says "God". She is always pointing us to God. She herself would be offended if someone gave her Latria or Adoration/Worship which is meant for God ALONE.

I like to say that going to Mary catapults us into deeper love for Christ ... for God.

Why is it this way? ... Because it has pleased God ... it is His Divine Will.

When Jesus spoke his Third Word from the Cross "Behold your Mother" (St. John) He was not only directing Himself to the Beloved Disciple but to ALL BELOVED DISCIPLES.

This is the Church's understanding of that verse.

Mary, Full of Grace, ... is the gift of the Dying Christ.

Alleluia! To Christ be all the Glory. AMEN.

God bless you.

Yeah sure, Mary was blessed to be Jesus' mother. We understand that and that is the context of those scriptures you have referred to. But there are numerous scriptures that tell us to focus on Christ, none that tell us to focus on Mary. You appear to be quote tradition rather than scripture.

 

[AHJE]

bobsterinJapan,

... Dear friend, ... Mary would be the first to agree with this ... that we should focus on Christ.

God bless you.

 

[2CentsEach]

bobsterinJapan,

... Dear friend, ... Mary would be the first to agree with this ... that we should focus on Christ.

God bless you.

Then why is she idolized in the church?

 

[bobsterInJapan]

bobsterinJapan,

... Dear friend, ... Mary would be the first to agree with this ... that we should focus on Christ.

God bless you.

Thank you.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the hail Mary stuff then.

I must admit I learnt something, though. I didn't really know why catholics talk to Mary.

God bless you, too.

 

[AHJE]

(To 2CentsEach)
^ Look at the hundreds, thousands of Saints Canonized (who are in heaven and formally recognized by the Church to be in Heaven) ... As a friendly challenge, ... I challenge you to find one Saint that did not have great devotion to the Blessed Mother of our Redeemer.

The Saints knew that the path to holiness included (not excluded) Mary as Mother of the Church. How can one meditate on the Joy and Mystery of Christmas and not be filled with awe of God's Plan which was hinged upon the "Yes" or "No" of a Humble Woman?

The Early Church Fathers said that by her "YES" Mary untied the knot of Eve's disobedience. ... God did not force Himself against Mary's will. Mary FREELY said,

"... Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. ..." (St. Luke 1:38, DRB)

She said her YES to God. God could have chosen any other way to come, ... he could have chosen to appear as a baby in the Jordan river and be found by a good woman, kind of like Moses was found by the Egyptian. But God chose to hinge His ENTIRE PLAN of SALVATION (and in the Fullness of Time, Gal. 4:4) upon the YES or NO of a Woman.

Rightfully, then, did the Early Church call Mary the New Eve. Especially since, they connected Gen. 3:15 with how Jesus referred to His Mother as "Woman" in John 2:4 and John 19:26)

What was Eve's name BEFORE she sinned? ... WOMAN.

The Early Church Fathers were quick to discern with the Help of the Holy Spirit who guided them into this Truth.

By the way, ... there were no superlatives in Aramaic such as BEST, GREATEST, so the way that you say "Most blessed are you above all women" in that tongue is "Blessed ... among ..."

This is very enlightening, I think.

I would love to post more, ... but I have to get some rest.

Nice to meet you all ... ... I'll try to respond at a later time.

May God bless you.

 

[Trogool]

Then why is she idolized in the church?

She isn't.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can you provide Scriptural reasons to bless/exalt Jesus' mother Mary? Because I can't find any. As far as I am concerned (and the Holy Bible too), Mary isn't to be exalted higher than other humans and should form no part of our worship to God

If we break down the Hail Mary, we find that most of it is taken from Scripture, verbatim:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;" - Luke 1:28

"Hail" is an archaic expression, it means "greetings!" or "salutations!". Anyone who is a fan of the Star Trek franchise might be familiar with this language, as ships often hail other vessels.

"blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, [Jesus.]" - Luke 1:42

The first is the angelic salutation, the second is the expression that Elizabeth uses.

The only part that isn't explicitly biblical is the final portion,

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

We could break this portion down further:

"Holy Mary", of course she is holy, she's the mother of our Lord, the highly favored one, chosen to bring into the world God Incarnate.

"Mother of God", of course she is the mother of God, in her womb was Christ God, the Eternal Logos, only-begotten of God the Father, the Everlasting God was in her womb and she gave birth to Him and wrapped Him in swaddling. She fed the Eternal One, blessed be He, with the milk of her breast. Not only is this true, it is essential Christian orthodoxy. To deny this is to deny the Christian faith; if we deny that she is true mother of Christ our God then we deny the Incarnation and humanity of our Lord and make ourselves heretics. It's why the Council of Ephesus was such a big deal in the 5th century.

In fact, at this point, there isn't even anything uniquely Roman Catholic about any of this. All of this, so far, is generically Christian, confessed by Christians across all denominational lines: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, and even Baptists and Pentecostals.

The last part of the last portion is perhaps the one bit that can be said to be theologically questionable:

"pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

If one believes it inappropriate to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us, then this is where the line is drawn.

If one believes it is appropriate, then no problem.

For some, it's a rather grey area. Scripture speaks neither for nor against asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us; as such it may be said to be adiophoric, and thus a matter of personal conscience.

Biblically speaking, Mary is more highly blessed, in the Magnificat as found in the Gospel according to St. Luke it is written,

"For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me. And holy is His name." - Luke 1:48-49

Rejecting the blessedness of the Virgin Mary isn't being biblical, it's being uncomfortable with language that sounds "too Catholic" to those who have been raised in certain traditions. Not to put a too fine a point on it, this is where many radical Protestants have put the "traditions of men" over and against the word of God.

The blessedness of Mary comes from God, not Mary. If we reject that she is indeed blessed in such a unique and lofty way we reject what God has done.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Trogool]

My point is that Mary passed away just like any other human being. Jesus came so we could have direct communication with Him and God the Father - so we don't need a priest, Mary or any other person between us and God - we only need the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You don't need to drink milk, eat meat, drink wine, watch TV, or have electricity either, technically. So I'm failing to see your point.

 

[Albion]

You don't need to drink milk, eat meat, drink wine, watch TV, or have electricity either, technically. So I'm failing to see your point.

There is no doubt that Mary has become--with the church's full support--a focus of devotion that goes way beyond mere veneration. Everyone on both sides knows it. The only question is whether talking about it candidly is to be permitted.