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Why Do Catholics

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Albion

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Can you provide Scriptural reasons to bless/exalt Jesus' mother Mary? Because I can't find any. As far as I am concerned (and the Holy Bible too), Mary isn't to be exalted higher than other humans

If we break down the Hail Mary, we find that most of it is taken from Scripture, verbatim:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;" - Luke 1:28

"Hail" is an archaic expression, it means "greetings!" or "salutations!". Anyone who is a fan of the Star Trek franchise might be familiar with this language, as ships often hail other vessels.

"blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, [Jesus.]" - Luke 1:42

The first is the angelic salutation, the second is the expression that Elizabeth uses.

The only part that isn't explicitly biblical is the final portion,


Yes but does that language place Mary into the position under question? I mean...Greetings! You've been blessed. :confused:
The Annunciation and the Incarnation are extraordinary. Compared to that, this language about Mary herself is remarkably reserved.


"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
And you begin your look at this part by noting that it's not from the Bible :confused:
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes but does that language place Mary into the position under question? I mean...Greetings! You've been blessed. :confused:
The Annunciation and the Incarnation are extraordinary. Compared to that, this language about Mary herself is remarkably reserved.



And you begin your look at this part by noting that it's not from the Bible :confused:

Correct. But I pointed out that calling Mary holy and calling her mother of God are obvious orthodox Christian statements. They aren't taken verbatim from Scripture, but the former is an obvious statement (it's what we do whenever we call any of the Saints saints) and the latter is an essential orthodox Christological pronouncement. The Child born from Mary is True God.

One can show the Virgin right respect without crossing the line. We can point out the way in which Marian devotion among some Roman Catholics starts to be a little weird without accusing Catholicism of idolatry; likewise recognizing Marian excesses is not a valid reason to throw the Lord's mother away completely, only bringing her out for a brief mention around Christmas. The fact is Mary is holy and blessed, next to the Lord Jesus Himself she is arguably the most important human being to have ever lived if only because of the honor given to her directly from God. There is no greater honor than for this woman to have given birth to the Eternal and Almighty God Himself.

It should be in light of this, then, that the Lord Himself invites us to be likewise blessed by obeying and believing God's word--even as His mother did at the Annunciation--and to be invited to be Christ's family. Which He graciously does by making us children of His Father, and He the eldest of many brethren as St. Paul says.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Correct. But I pointed out that calling Mary holy and calling her mother of God are obvious orthodox Christian statements.

Right, but in reply to a person who is strictly "by the Bible....?"

BTW, I am an admirer of your style of writing: very organized, thorough, and readable. But pointing out that the church long has extolled Mary with beautiful language and imagery isn't usually going to succceed. That only sounds like people of old got carried away just like the ones today who occasioned the criticism.

They aren't taken verbatim from Scripture, but the former is an obvious statement (it's what we do whenever we call any of the Saints saints) and the latter is an essential orthodox Christological pronouncement. The Child born from Mary is True God.

Yes, but we all know that Mary gave birth to Jesus and that she's most likely in heaven. That really doesn't get at the heart of the matter, which is how she is honored.

One can show the Virgin right respect without crossing the line.

I agree.

We can point out the way in which Marian devotion among some Roman Catholics starts to be a little weird without accusing Catholicism of idolatry

Agreed again.

likewise recognizing Marian excesses is not a valid reason to throw the Lord's mother away completely

Of course not. I haven't read of anyone here suggesting something like that, however.

The fact is Mary is holy and blessed, next to the Lord Jesus Himself she is arguably the most important human being to have ever lived if only because of the honor given to her directly from God. There is no greater honor than for this woman to have given birth to the Eternal and Almighty God Himself.

It should be in light of this, then, that the Lord Himself invites us to be likewise blessed by obeying and believing God's word--even as His mother did at the Annunciation--and to be invited to be Christ's family. Which He graciously does by making us children of His Father, and He the eldest of many brethren as St. Paul says.
FWIW, I'm thinking that that approach, more or less, could represent a sound middle ground between the excess and "throwing the Lord's mother away." Unfortunately, most of what is given back to the critics is much less conciliatory or moderate.

Thanks, Via.
 
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Ashlantal

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I think the Hail Mary is unnecessary and I'd actually go so far as to call it idol worship in some instances. Sure, show reverence and respect where it's due , but don't repeat the same unnecessary prayer 5 times a day everyday because a priest tells you to do so in order to be absolved of your sins.

If the prayers were to God, then it's a different story. But even then, Jesus tells us vain repetitions in prayer is what heathens do. Uh-oh.

Just come to the Father yourself in the name of Jesus ... jeez . You can do it anytime you want , the Holy Spirit is always with us. THIS is what we are told to do, not go to priests to be forgiven , do works to be forgiven , and say prayers to Mary & saints.
 
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Albion

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I think the Hail Mary is unnecessary and I'd actually go so far as to call it idol worship in some instances. Sure, show reverence and respect where it's due , but don't repeat the same unnecessary prayer 5 times a day everyday because a priest tells you to do so in order to be absolved of your sins.

If the prayers were to God, then it's a different story. But even then, Jesus tells us vain repetitions in prayer is what heathens do. Uh-oh.

Just come to the Father yourself in the name of Jesus ... jeez . You can do it anytime you want , the Holy Spirit is always with us. THIS is what we are told to do, not go to priests to be forgiven , do works to be forgiven , and say prayers to Mary & saints.

I agree with you on much of that. We don't need a go-between to reach God our Father. Jesus even made a point of saying that very thing. And spontaneous, personal prayer is very meaningful.

But at the same time, the Hail Mary is not thought to be especially meaningful in the removal of sins. I think there's some misunderstanding there. Also, the point about vain repetitions is not really about repetitions, but about the vain part! :) Is vanity the reason for the prayer in question--like the Pharisees would do? If so, that would be wrong.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think the Hail Mary is unnecessary and I'd actually go so far as to call it idol worship in some instances. Sure, show reverence and respect where it's due , but don't repeat the same unnecessary prayer 5 times a day everyday because a priest tells you to do so in order to be absolved of your sins.

If the prayers were to God, then it's a different story. But even then, Jesus tells us vain repetitions in prayer is what heathens do. Uh-oh.

What Jesus was criticizing was the notion that somehow we could invoke divine power by simply repeating a word or phrase over and over. This is distinctively different than liturgical prayer, which both the Jews (including Jesus) and later Christians have done throughout history. Saying a prayer over and over as though I can call down divine power to do my bidding--"as the heathen do"--is a no-no. Engaging in liturgical and devotional prayer, such as the Our Father or the Gloria, has been intrinsic to the worship of Israel and the Church for as long as Jews and Christians have worshiped and prayed.

We are prudent to recognize the difference and not confuse the two. However, I agree with you that there is no merit in saying the Hail Mary, or the Our Father, over and over again as though this could contribute anything to our salvation and standing before God.

Just come to the Father yourself in the name of Jesus ... jeez . You can do it anytime you want , the Holy Spirit is always with us. THIS is what we are told to do, not go to priests to be forgiven , do works to be forgiven , and say prayers to Mary & saints.

I agree. But God has also given us Means by which He faithfully reaches down to us. Namely His Word and Sacraments. Scripture also teaches us to freely confess our sins one to another. Not as though priests have power to forgive, but rather because in confessing we are forgiven; and the words of Absolution, whether private or public, is Gospel word: God's faithful promise to forgive us of all unrighteousness when we confess. That God does not require that we confess to those He has called to shepherd the flock, doesn't mean that we can't (after all, "confess to one another" includes pastors).

Let's not combat legalism with more legalism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AHJE

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There is no doubt that Mary has become--with the church's full support--a focus of devotion that goes way beyond mere veneration. Everyone on both sides knows it. The only question is whether talking about it candidly is to be permitted.

Exactly Albion,

That's why we have a unique word for the kind of honor that is due to the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) ... We call it Hyper-Dulia, or Hyper-Veneration. Yet this is infinitely different from the HONOR that is due to God ALONE, which is called Latria (Adoration, which is the opposite of idol -latria)

God bless you.

(I covered this on previous posts in this thread just recently).
 
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Albion

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Exactly Albion,

That's why we have a unique word for the kind of honor that is due to the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) ... We call it Hyper-Dulia, or Hyper-Veneration. Yet this is infinitely different from the HONOR that is due to God ALONE, which is called Latria (Adoration, which is the opposite of idol -latria)

Which is important to remember when distinguishing worship from worship in order to deny that any saint worship is going on, although it looks like the other worship, has the charcteristics of the kind of worship that is directed at God, and is called by you 'worship.' Yeh, we knew that.
 
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AHJE

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Which is important to remember when distinguishing worship from worship in order to deny that any saint worship is going on, although it looks like the other worship, has the charcteristics of the kind of worship that is directed at God, and is called by you 'worship.' Yeh, we knew that.

Dear Albion,

Peace be with you,

What can I say to you? ... If you cannot discern that, in keeping with the virtue of justice, Mary as Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) is deserving of a unique and special honor among the Saints (like Hyper-Dulia) ... well, ... what does that say about your sense of justice? Doesn't the Bible teach to give honor where honor is due?

I invite you to really examine your conscience in this matter: ... what kind of honor does the Mother of our Savior and Redeemer deserve? ... After all, it pleased God to HINGE His entire PLAN of SALVATION upon the YES or NO of this humble handmaid, pure and holy, Virgin and Blessed, FULL OF GRACE ... what kind of honor? ... Ask the Holy Spirit to help you in this matter ... I hope that it does matter to you ... even as it matters to Jesus, the Head of the Church (His Body).

Keep in mind that Jesus said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge just judgment." (St. John 7:24, DRB)

If I saw someone hold and hug their little doggie ... and then I saw this same person hold and hug his/her mother. Would I be of a sound mind if I concluded that "See how much she loves her mother! ... so sweet, in the same way as she loves her little puppy Awwww!"

It is bearing false witness to say that the Holy Catholic Church honors the Blessed Mother even as we HONOR God Most High. We do not make sacrifice to Mary nor the Saints. We offer the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus (the selfsame once and for all Sacrifice) in the Holy Mass to the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

Glory be to the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity.
 
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Yarddog

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Worship angels?
Catholics don't in the sense of worshiping God. Showing respect to heavenly beings is not worshiping as we worship God.

The dictionary shows that one definition for the English word worship is: "extravagant respect or admiration" another is: "reverence offered a divine being".

These are not the same and worship of God is not respect for angels.
 
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Albion

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What can I say to you? ... If you cannot discern that, in keeping with the virtue of justice, Mary as Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) is deserving of a unique and special honor among the Saints (like Hyper-Dulia) ... well, ... what does that say about your sense of justice? Doesn't the Bible teach to give honor where honor is due?

Giving honor has never been the issue. I know that it is often used as a ploy in debates such as this one, but it's never been an issue. Worship is the issue. If you are uncomfortable debating that, I can well understand. And by the way, I have no interest in you trying to make this a denomational spat with me; after all, there are many churches that engage in this kind of practice.

If you are willing to address the real issue here, please write back.
 
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AHJE

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Giving honor has never been the issue. I know that it is often used as a ploy in debates such as this one, but it's never been an issue. Worship is the issue. If you are uncomfortable debating that, I can well understand. And by the way, I have no interest in you trying to make this a denomational spat with me; after all, there are many churches that engage in this kind of practice.

If you are willing to address the real issue here, please write back.

Hmm, ... the real issue ... Oh, you mean the real issue as YOU see it.

Fine, ... What makes you think that Catholics give to Mary the HONOR
that is due to God ALONE -- Latria (Worship/Adoration)?

What leads you to believe that we Catholics give Latria to Mary?


God bless you.
 
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Albion

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Hmm, ... the real issue ... Oh, you mean the real issue as YOU see it.

I mean the real issue as it's been debated here for months on end. How much of that are you familiar with?

Fine, ... What makes you think that Catholics give to Mary the HONOR
that is due to God ALONE -- Latria (Worship/Adoration)?

What leads you to believe that we Catholics give Latria to Mary?

I see that your position is "We worship Mary but it's not THAT worship." Our position is that if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, etc....it's a duck. If one engages in worship that belongs only to God, it doesn't make much difference if you try to camoflage it by giving a different name. And make no mistake; the issue is what is done, not what it's called.
 
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steve_bakr

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Albion said:
I mean the real issue as it's been debated here for months on end. How much of that are you familiar with?

I see that your position is "We worship Mary but it's not THAT worship." Our position is that if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, etc....it's a duck. If one engages in worship that belongs only to God, it doesn't make much difference if you try to camoflage it by giving a different name. And make no mistake; the issue is what is done, not what it's called.

Albion,

I fear that your position on this topic is one of perpetual disagreement and an intransigent refusal to discern the distinctions that have been presented for your understanding. Without a certain penetration to the depths of the Catholic position on this matter--as opposed to a superficial judgment of appearances--how can understanding and mutual respect become possible?
 
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AHJE

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Dear Albion,

You say that the issue is not about honor, yet Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) says that Worship/Adoration is indeed a kind of Honor.

"That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father." (St. John 5:23, DRB)

This is obviously an issue about honor, don't you think?

God bless you.
 
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Albion

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Dear Albion,

You say that the issue is not about honor, yet Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) says that Worship/Adoration is indeed a kind of Honor.

Dear AHJE,

And a Kia and a Mercedes are both kinds of automobiles. Does it matter which one you drive?

Again, the issue is begin sidestepped. WHAT IS DONE is the issue, regardless of what you call it.

I'm more than willing to have a forthright and cordial discussion of the behavior that's in question, if you are interested in doing that.

Peace.
 
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Albion

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Albion, So what you are saying is that there are not degrees of honor or different kinds of honor to be distinguished in any real meaningful sense?

Let's step back for a moment. You called this kind of behavior (I hope that that's sufficiently neutral as a description) an honor. It is an honor, but there are many kinds of honor. Which kind of honor is the question. Is it honor that is also worship? If so, it belongs to God, not to a saint, not even one of the greatest of saints.
 
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AHJE

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Let's step back for a moment. You called this kind of behavior (I hope that that's sufficiently neutral as a description) an honor. It is an honor, but there are many kinds of honor. Which kind of honor is the question. Is it honor that is also worship? If so, it belongs to God, not to a saint, not even one of the greatest of saints.

Amen, ... this is what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices.
 
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