I am afraid that seeing my point is not the only thing you fail at, my friend.You don't need to drink milk, eat meat, drink wine, watch TV, or have electricity either, technically. So I'm failing to see your point.
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I am afraid that seeing my point is not the only thing you fail at, my friend.You don't need to drink milk, eat meat, drink wine, watch TV, or have electricity either, technically. So I'm failing to see your point.
Can you provide Scriptural reasons to bless/exalt Jesus' mother Mary? Because I can't find any. As far as I am concerned (and the Holy Bible too), Mary isn't to be exalted higher than other humans
If we break down the Hail Mary, we find that most of it is taken from Scripture, verbatim:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;" - Luke 1:28
"Hail" is an archaic expression, it means "greetings!" or "salutations!". Anyone who is a fan of the Star Trek franchise might be familiar with this language, as ships often hail other vessels.
"blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, [Jesus.]" - Luke 1:42
The first is the angelic salutation, the second is the expression that Elizabeth uses.
The only part that isn't explicitly biblical is the final portion,
And you begin your look at this part by noting that it's not from the Bible"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
Yes but does that language place Mary into the position under question? I mean...Greetings! You've been blessed.
The Annunciation and the Incarnation are extraordinary. Compared to that, this language about Mary herself is remarkably reserved.
And you begin your look at this part by noting that it's not from the Bible![]()
Correct. But I pointed out that calling Mary holy and calling her mother of God are obvious orthodox Christian statements.
They aren't taken verbatim from Scripture, but the former is an obvious statement (it's what we do whenever we call any of the Saints saints) and the latter is an essential orthodox Christological pronouncement. The Child born from Mary is True God.
One can show the Virgin right respect without crossing the line.
We can point out the way in which Marian devotion among some Roman Catholics starts to be a little weird without accusing Catholicism of idolatry
likewise recognizing Marian excesses is not a valid reason to throw the Lord's mother away completely
FWIW, I'm thinking that that approach, more or less, could represent a sound middle ground between the excess and "throwing the Lord's mother away." Unfortunately, most of what is given back to the critics is much less conciliatory or moderate.The fact is Mary is holy and blessed, next to the Lord Jesus Himself she is arguably the most important human being to have ever lived if only because of the honor given to her directly from God. There is no greater honor than for this woman to have given birth to the Eternal and Almighty God Himself.
It should be in light of this, then, that the Lord Himself invites us to be likewise blessed by obeying and believing God's word--even as His mother did at the Annunciation--and to be invited to be Christ's family. Which He graciously does by making us children of His Father, and He the eldest of many brethren as St. Paul says.
I think the Hail Mary is unnecessary and I'd actually go so far as to call it idol worship in some instances. Sure, show reverence and respect where it's due , but don't repeat the same unnecessary prayer 5 times a day everyday because a priest tells you to do so in order to be absolved of your sins.
If the prayers were to God, then it's a different story. But even then, Jesus tells us vain repetitions in prayer is what heathens do. Uh-oh.
Just come to the Father yourself in the name of Jesus ... jeez . You can do it anytime you want , the Holy Spirit is always with us. THIS is what we are told to do, not go to priests to be forgiven , do works to be forgiven , and say prayers to Mary & saints.
I think the Hail Mary is unnecessary and I'd actually go so far as to call it idol worship in some instances. Sure, show reverence and respect where it's due , but don't repeat the same unnecessary prayer 5 times a day everyday because a priest tells you to do so in order to be absolved of your sins.
If the prayers were to God, then it's a different story. But even then, Jesus tells us vain repetitions in prayer is what heathens do. Uh-oh.
Just come to the Father yourself in the name of Jesus ... jeez . You can do it anytime you want , the Holy Spirit is always with us. THIS is what we are told to do, not go to priests to be forgiven , do works to be forgiven , and say prayers to Mary & saints.
There is no doubt that Mary has become--with the church's full support--a focus of devotion that goes way beyond mere veneration. Everyone on both sides knows it. The only question is whether talking about it candidly is to be permitted.
Exactly Albion,
That's why we have a unique word for the kind of honor that is due to the Blessed Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) ... We call it Hyper-Dulia, or Hyper-Veneration. Yet this is infinitely different from the HONOR that is due to God ALONE, which is called Latria (Adoration, which is the opposite of idol -latria)
Which is important to remember when distinguishing worship from worship in order to deny that any saint worship is going on, although it looks like the other worship, has the charcteristics of the kind of worship that is directed at God, and is called by you 'worship.' Yeh, we knew that.
Catholics don't in the sense of worshiping God. Showing respect to heavenly beings is not worshiping as we worship God.Worship angels?
What can I say to you? ... If you cannot discern that, in keeping with the virtue of justice, Mary as Mother of Immanuel (God-With-Us) is deserving of a unique and special honor among the Saints (like Hyper-Dulia) ... well, ... what does that say about your sense of justice? Doesn't the Bible teach to give honor where honor is due?
Giving honor has never been the issue. I know that it is often used as a ploy in debates such as this one, but it's never been an issue. Worship is the issue. If you are uncomfortable debating that, I can well understand. And by the way, I have no interest in you trying to make this a denomational spat with me; after all, there are many churches that engage in this kind of practice.
If you are willing to address the real issue here, please write back.
Hmm, ... the real issue ... Oh, you mean the real issue as YOU see it.
Fine, ... What makes you think that Catholics give to Mary the HONOR
that is due to God ALONE -- Latria (Worship/Adoration)?
What leads you to believe that we Catholics give Latria to Mary?
Albion said:I mean the real issue as it's been debated here for months on end. How much of that are you familiar with?
I see that your position is "We worship Mary but it's not THAT worship." Our position is that if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, etc....it's a duck. If one engages in worship that belongs only to God, it doesn't make much difference if you try to camoflage it by giving a different name. And make no mistake; the issue is what is done, not what it's called.
Dear Albion,
You say that the issue is not about honor, yet Sacred Writing (the Holy Bible) says that Worship/Adoration is indeed a kind of Honor.
Albion, So what you are saying is that there are not degrees of honor or different kinds of honor to be distinguished in any real meaningful sense?
Let's step back for a moment. You called this kind of behavior (I hope that that's sufficiently neutral as a description) an honor. It is an honor, but there are many kinds of honor. Which kind of honor is the question. Is it honor that is also worship? If so, it belongs to God, not to a saint, not even one of the greatest of saints.