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I posted this yesterday, which has so far been ignored:
Simply choosing and electing are not the same. Yes, there is overlap, but they are distinct.
Every election involves a choice. But very few choices involve election. That is the clear difference.
Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, why? Thanks.
Glad to! Seems most people think that election is about being chosen for salvation, on all the theological sides. But it isn't an election.I certainly agree with that statement. I must say though that I'm not picking up what you're laying down. Maybe it's a little early for my brain to wrap around it. But could you explain how that ties together with my comments.
Thanks!
As I explained, it matters a great deal. God does NOT elect anyone to salvation. He does choose who He will save, for sure. But that is NOT an election. Election is about service. And does involve unbelievers."You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? (Romans 9:19)
Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not.
I don't believe that is at issue at all. I've never argued against His will.The statement of incredulity that will be issued whenever the doctrine is taught correctly as per the Holy Spirit's meaning through Paul's words - has to do with His creation being unable to resist God's sovereign will.
Inability to do what, exactly? The choice of the younger twin certainly was not about ability, or lack thereof.This inability is what is clearly taught by the passage concerning the twins. This is what the exampled questioner is objecting to.
On the contrary, Greek words all have meaning. And as you have previously agreed, all elections involve choice, but very few choices involve election.It seems to me that your so finely parsing the difference between the words translated as chosen and elect is a clear attempt to justify a position which the Holy Spirit has not allowed one to logically hold from the words and context He has chosen (or is that elected) to provide for us in scripture.
I'm never offended by any poster. Many times amused, but never offended. This isn't personal, but rather, doctrinal. And I fully agree that what God chooses, as well as what He elects, is by His sovereignty.Don't be offended. I mean this is the kindest sense. But you are adding insult to injury in so far as believing God's clear statement in the doctrine of sovereign election (or sovereign choice if you would like to word it that way).
I have done that. My understanding of election is about service and privilege, not about being chosen or elected for salvation.Why not rather bring your doctrine into line with the clear meaning of scripture? You don't have to call yourself a "Calvinist" if that is objectionable to you. I don't like to call myself a Calvinist either.
I have no problem with God's sovereignty and free will. None whatsoever, and there isn't any conflict between them.It is quite possible to combine the concepts of divine sovereignty and free will. It is called by many the doctrine of "concurrence" and is related directly to the doctrine of providence in general.
I agree.Jesus was perfectly willing to subscribe to the doctrine of concurrence. He said that He could only do what the Father was doing and that He liked it that way.
Agreed.Me too! I live and move and have my being in Him and I wouldn't have it any other way. I exercise my faith because He works in me to do so for His glory.
I have embraced it, and see no conflict between them. I do wonder why it seems you think I do have a problem with reconciling them. There is nothing to "reconcile". They are fully compatible.It's not really all that difficult - this sovereignty - will of God - free will thing. He's God. We are the creatures. Live with it. Embrace it - concerning your salvation and your ability to breath for that matter. I do.
You have noted that you don't call yourself a "Calvinist", but the phrase "sovereign grace" is code for Calvinistic doctrine that God elects people to save apart from ANYTHING about them.Loving the sovereign grace of my creator in all that I am and all that I do ----- MARVIN
Once God gave me a new heart, I could do nothing other than believe.
Now you see I can't relate to this, because I always believed as far back as I can remember. It wasn't until I confessed Christ as my savior that it all came together.
This is quite puzzling since you agreed with my statement:FreeGrace2
Like I said before - "Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not."
Perhaps I'm not sharp enough to follow your parsing of the two words, election and choice, and I really don't care to.
This is quite puzzling since you agreed with my statement:
"All elections involve a choice, but very few choices involve an election."
Yet, you continue to say "it matters not" and that I'm parsing words. If you really did understand and agree with my statement, you SHOULD understand WHY they are different and not equal.
But since your comments are internally contradicted, I'm not sure there can be a serious discussion of the issue of election.
Obviously they didn't. That's the point. That's what got us to chapter 36.
That's different. But you think you earn the gift by having faith.
Why do Calvinists even care when people are only doing what God made them to do. Frankly, I'm sick of beating around the bush. Either God is directly responsible for evil in the world or he isn't.
But according to Calvinism some part of him willed for the Devil and his angels to fall and for man to fall away. But wait, then God has the nerve to throw a hissy fit over something he did and punish living creatures for eternity over something that is entirely his fault to begin with? I don't know about he rest of you, but if that's how God is, hell is starting to sound better and better.
Indeed. A "god" that creates people to do evil, then commands them to not do what he created them to do, then punishes them for doing what they were created to do instead of doing the impossible he commanded them to do is clearly insane and not to be trusted or worshiped.
58 If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plaguesgreat and prolonged plaguesand serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.
63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Sway means power ro rule and control.18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
2 Timothy 2:26
New King James Version (NKJV)
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
"Earn" does not enter into it. This is the perpetual Calvinist strawman.
Then perhaps you could enlighten me concerning the very words of God in Ezekiel 18.
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
It's not hard to notice that God will judge Israel according to their conduct. To which, God gave them this command - "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions".
Why? "...so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you."
Concerning their transgressions mentioned in verse 30, God then tells Israel to "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed."
Again, why? (read carefully) ...to make themselves a new heart and a new spirit. For unless they make themselves a new heart and spirit, THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR SINS AND DIE! I don't think this is so hard to understand, unless one is reading from his/her own intelligence.
I reject your understanding of my view. We aren't even speaking of decrees here. The issue is choice and election.That is because whether or not the two words mean exactly the same thing or not - doesn't change your lack of logic concerning the silly idea that God decrees something based on what He sees happening in His universe in the future.
This is nonsense. of course I do.The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that we live and move and have our being in the Word of God.
More nonsense.The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that all things exist through Him, for Him, and in Him have their being.
It is quite obvious that nothing occurs apart from His permission. And many things occur directly because He causes them.That clearly means that nothing can happen without His decreeing that it happen and in that decreeing carry it through to it's conclusion of happening.
Much more nonsense. It is very apparent that you have no idea what you've been talking about.I take it from your wave goodby that you sense that you are reaching a point where your folly will be evident to all and wish to bail out.
I don't expect that you've been following this discussion at all.So be it. Just don't expect anyone to believe that it is for any other reason.
Indeed. A "god" that creates people to do evil, then commands them to not do what he created them to do, then punishes them for doing what they were created to do instead of doing the impossible he commanded them to do is clearly insane and not to be trusted or worshiped.
Please prove how simply believing something (anything) can be called work that is compensated. Otherwise you have no point.Not really. If God only saves those who do something first (believe), then that's earning or meriting salvation.
Please prove how simply believing something (anything) can be called work that is compensated. Otherwise you have no point.
Paul clearly distinguished between faith and works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.
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