Why do Arminians...

[OzSpen]

The fact that you can't see that, logically, faith precedes regeneration in your view doesn't mean that I am misrepresenting you. The only way misrepresenting you is if you believe, logically, that regeneration precedes faith.

I have provided evidence to demonstrate that you are lying about my view. You engaged in eisegesis of what I said. Why do you find it so difficult to admit that you got it wrong about my view on what I wrote about faith and regeneration?

 

[Hammster]

I have provided evidence to demonstrate that you are lying about my view. You engaged in eisegesis of what I said. Why do you find it so difficult to admit that you got it wrong about my view on what I wrote about faith and regeneration?

I'm not wrong. I've demonstrated that.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Yes, by grace through faith in Christ. Salvation is conditional.

One of the key differences between Christianity and all other religions is that while in other religions we find man striving and reaching up to a god or gods in ascending fashion, in Christianity one true God condescends to man, that is, God reaches down to His fallen creatures to restore as He pleases when He pleases, and where He pleases.

Salvation is conditional in all religions, except Christianity, but if we want to insist on using the term, the condition then is God, who is the "all conditioner" of human experiences.

If we were really trying to be clever, it could be said that salvation is by works alone...yes indeed...by the sole works of God almighty!

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Oh I see, no this is eisegetical in nature, not what the scripture itself conveys.

The starting point is those that come to Jesus. They first must be drawn and if they do come to him, then He will raise them. Of course this is also contingent on them enduring as Jesus also states. Context is everything regardless of what scripture your are dealing with.

I understand. So you believe the "him" of the drawing may be a different "him" of the raising, since someone can be drawn, not come, and thus not be necessarily raised. Correct?

 

[FreeGrace2]

One of the key differences between Christianity and all other religions is that while in other religions we find man striving and reaching up to a god or gods in ascending fashion, in Christianity one true God condescends to man, that is, God reaches down to His fallen creatures to restore as He pleases when He pleases, and where He pleases.

Well said! And we know what pleases God. Faith. Heb 11:6 And we know what He is pleased to do: save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

Salvation is conditional in all religions, except Christianity, but if we want to insist on using the term, the condition then is God, who is the "all conditioner" of human experiences.

This wasn't "well said". In fact, it's just wrong. Salvation is conditioned upon faith, which I've proven from Scripture. So your argument is with the Holy Spirit. The condition for salvation in ALL religions is works. In Christianity, the condition is belief, not works. Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.

If we were really trying to be clever, it could be said that salvation is by works alone...yes indeed...by the sole works of God almighty!

That's not clever at all. In fact, it's not Scriptural. I prefer to stay with what Scripture says, which I've cited here.

We are clearly saved by grace through faith. That IS the condition.

The "work" of salvation is on God's part alone. No man contributes any work to his salvation. It is all of God.

Belief is not a work. And God saves those who believe.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Well said! And we know what pleases God. Faith. Heb 11:6 And we know what He is pleased to do: save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21


This wasn't "well said". In fact, it's just wrong. Salvation is conditioned upon faith, which I've proven from Scripture. So your argument is with the Holy Spirit. The condition for salvation in ALL religions is works. In Christianity, the condition is belief, not works. Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.


That's not clever at all. In fact, it's not Scriptural. I prefer to stay with what Scripture says, which I've cited here.

We are clearly saved by grace through faith. That IS the condition.

The "work" of salvation is on God's part alone. No man contributes any work to his salvation. It is all of God.

Belief is not a work. And God saves those who believe.

Except that it's clear from Scripture that faith is a gift, none with it can boast.

 

[stan1953]

I understand. So you believe the "him" of the drawing may be a different "him" of the raising, since someone can be drawn, not come, and thus not be necessarily raised. Correct?

Yes based on the limited scope of Jesus' statement. However if you note the further qualification in v45 it should make complete sense.
The section from 45-51 clearly show what will happen if WE do our part.

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me. 46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—he has seen the Father.) 47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
​

 

[stan1953]

I'm not wrong. I've demonstrated that.

Not even close.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Except that it's clear from Scripture that faith is a gift, none with it can boast.

That is not only not clear, it's not even taught. The free gift is always eternal life.

But if one wants to argue that faith is a gift, I'll agree, but only when the faith is a noun, not a verb.

Man believes (verb) from his heart (Rom 10:9). Our faith (noun) is from God. Our faith is the body of what we believe in. It includes all of what the Bible reveals. That is the only way that faith is a gift. It is God's gift to mankind to provide His Written as well as Living Word.

But far too many people misunderstand and think that man's action of believing is a gift that God imparts to the specially selected elect to enable them to believe, which is NOT taught in Scripture anywhere.

The "it" in Eph 2:8 refers back to salvation, which is affirmed in Rom 6:23.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

That is not only not clear, it's not even taught. The free gift is always eternal life.

But if one wants to argue that faith is a gift, I'll agree, but only when the faith is a noun, not a verb.

Man believes (verb) from his heart (Rom 10:9). Our faith (noun) is from God. Our faith is the body of what we believe in. It includes all of what the Bible reveals. That is the only way that faith is a gift. It is God's gift to mankind to provide His Written as well as Living Word.

But far too many people misunderstand and think that man's action of believing is a gift that God imparts to the specially selected elect to enable them to believe, which is NOT taught in Scripture anywhere.

The "it" in Eph 2:8 refers back to salvation, which is affirmed in Rom 6:23.

Eph Chap 2 verse 8 explicitly teaches that faith is a gift. "And this is not your own doing" and from verse 9 "not a result of works, so that no one may boast." and from verse 10 "for good works, which God prepared beforehand"

In fact nothing in the context suggests this "conditional" salvation, going backwards in Eph Chap 2 we read:

"4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved" (ESV)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

But far too many people misunderstand and think that man's action of believing is a gift that God imparts to the specially selected elect to enable them to believe, which is NOT taught in Scripture anywhere.

Why do we read the following in Scripture?

Luke 8:9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’" (ESV)

again why do we read the following in Scripture?

Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;" (ESV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph Chap 2 verse 8 explicitly teaches that faith is a gift.

Wrong.

"And this is not your own doing" and from verse 9 "not a result of works, so that no one may boast." and from verse 10 "for good works, which God prepared beforehand"

Why would anyone think that faith is a work, given Rom 4:4,5 as well as Eph 2:8,9. In both places, Paul distinguishes between faith and works.

In fact nothing in the context suggests this "conditional" salvation

In fact, v.8 does.

going backwards in Eph Chap 2 we read:

"4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved" (ESV)

Here's how it works out.

In v.5, Paul equates "being made alive" with "being saved". Then in v.8, Paul clearly says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

His same message in Acts 16:31 for the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

It couldn't be any more clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
But far too many people misunderstand and think that man's action of believing is a gift that God imparts to the specially selected elect to enable them to believe, which is NOT taught in Scripture anywhere.

Why do we read the following in Scripture?

Luke 8:9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’" (ESV)

again why do we read the following in Scripture?

Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;" (ESV)

OK, there are 2 verses. How do they relate to my comment? Scripture without any explanation isn't helpful. I don't see any relevance, so please provide explanation as to why you think they do.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Wrong.


Why would anyone think that faith is a work, given Rom 4:4,5 as well as Eph 2:8,9. In both places, Paul distinguishes between faith and works.


In fact, v.8 does.


Here's how it works out.

In v.5, Paul equates "being made alive" with "being saved". Then in v.8, Paul clearly says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

His same message in Acts 16:31 for the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

It couldn't be any more clear.

Funny, I do not recall claiming that faith is a work...hmm it seems someone is trying to put words in my mouth that were not there to begin with.

At any rate this is what Jesus said; John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (ESV)

uhh you were saying?

 

[stan1953]

Funny, I do not recall claiming that faith is a work...hmm it seems someone is trying to put words in my mouth that were not there to begin with.
At any rate this is what Jesus said; John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (ESV)
uhh you were saying?

This seems to be a regular occurrence on Soteriology, or at least the claim is. Some do it on a regular basis and some just get caught up in the heat of the moment.

SO, AW, are you saying you accept what Jesus said in John 6:29 and therefore SE does NOT apply?

 

[Hammster]

Not even close.

Opinions vary.

 

[stan1953]

Opinions vary.

Not that I've seen.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This seems to be a regular occurrence on Soteriology, or at least the claim is. Some do it on a regular basis and some just get caught up in the heat of the moment.

SO, AW, are you saying you accept what Jesus said in John 6:29 and therefore SE does NOT apply?

Haha, nice try. I am saying Jn 6:29 is proof positive from Jesus Christ Himself of the truth of Monergism in salvation.

FTR Stan, I accept all of Scripture, all (all means all in this instance ) 66 books of the protestant canon. I do not believe Scripture is contradictory in any way, I believe the Scriptures are harmonious, complimentary, and compatible. The contradictions (for whatever reasons) arise in fallible man's interpretations of the Word of God. Yes the writers of Scripture were fallible men, but they chosen for the specific task of accurately preserving written revelations from God, illuminated, inspired, and "carried along" by the Holy Ghost in a manner unlike other fallible men.

SO I am saying your question does not apply.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Funny, I do not recall claiming that faith is a work...hmm it seems someone is trying to put words in my mouth that were not there to begin with.

Funny, your comment:
"And this is not your own doing" and from verse 9 "not a result of works, so that no one may boast." and from verse 10 "for good works, which God prepared beforehand"
seemed to make that conclusion. Maybe some more clarity would help.

At any rate this is what Jesus said; John 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (ESV)

uhh you were saying?

OK, you've given a verse. Now please exegete it so I know how you understand it before I make any comment.

 

[Hammster]

Not that I've seen.

Okay.