Why do Arminians...

[sdowney717]

Haha, nice try. I am saying Jn 6:29 is proof positive from Jesus Christ Himself of the truth of Monergism in salvation.

FTR Stan, I accept all of Scripture, all (all means all in this instance ) 66 books of the protestant canon. I do not believe Scripture is contradictory in any way, I believe the Scriptures are harmonious, complimentary, and compatible. The contradictions (for whatever reasons) arise in fallible man's interpretations of the Word of God. Yes the writers of Scripture were fallible men, but they chosen for the specific task of accurately preserving written revelations from God, illuminated, inspired, and "carried along" by the Holy Ghost in a manner unlike other fallible men.

SO I am saying your question does not apply.

excellent, very good.
The work of God is that you beleive in Jesus whom God has sent.
They will say can the work of God be prevented?
How can that be as in the New covenant that God makes it is God himself putting his laws into their minds and writing His commandments on their hearts. The Old covenant which man broke can not be broken with the new covenant because God's work on the mind and the heart is the guarantee that He will perform it and not man.

He is able to make all grace abound towards us.

 

[stan1953]

Haha, nice try. I am saying Jn 6:29 is proof positive from Jesus Christ Himself of the truth of Monergism in salvation.

FTR Stan, I accept all of Scripture, all (all means all in this instance ) 66 books of the protestant canon. I do not believe Scripture is contradictory in any way, I believe the Scriptures are harmonious, complimentary, and compatible. The contradictions (for whatever reasons) arise in fallible man's interpretations of the Word of God. Yes the writers of Scripture were fallible men, but they chosen for the specific task of accurately preserving written revelations from God, illuminated, inspired, and "carried along" by the Holy Ghost in a manner unlike other fallible men.

SO I am saying your question does not apply.

I don't know what you mean by nice try...the scripture says; Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The same message is in Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord

How exactly do you reconcile just these two verses with SE?

 

[Skala]

Still doesn't mean drag, just a different type of drawing. How about DRAW as in "If I am lifted up I will DRAW all men unto me."

Do you not understand what CONNOTATIONS are?

Do you not understand what definitions are?

No matter how badly you want helkuo to mean "woo, attract, persuade", it will never mean that

 

[Skala]

helkō, does NOT convey drag

helkō, does NOT convey drag

helkō, does NOT convey drag

helkō, does NOT convey drag

This refutation was never acknowledged.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you not understand what definitions are?

No matter how badly you want helkuo to mean "woo, attract, persuade", it will never mean that

Why are you refusing to agree with Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon and the meaning of helkuo [helko] in John 6:44 as meaning 'figurative of the pulling on man's inner life ... draw, attract' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:251)?

Renowned Greek scholar and exegete from the 20th century, A T Robertson, wrote of 'except the Father draw him' in John 6:44:

John 6:44

Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net ( John 21:6 ), or sword ( John 18:10 ), or men ( Acts 16:19 ), to draw by moral power ( 12:32 ), as in Jeremiah 31:3 . Surw, the other word to drag ( Acts 8:3 ; Acts 14:19 ) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse 65 . The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse 37 . See Romans 8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudei dunatai here (Robertson 1932:109).
​

So these 2 substantive Greek scholars do not agree with your conclusion about helkuo. What are you going to do about that? When will you admit that you are wrong in your understanding of the etymology of helkuo in verses such as John 6:44?

Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Robertson, A T 1932. Word pictures in the New Testament: The fourth gospel and the epistle to the Hebrews. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press. Also available HERE.

 

[OzSpen]

This refutation was never acknowledged.

I find it interesting what you did in highlighting Strong's meaning of helkuo. You wanted to highlight 'drag' so you gave that the emphasis and circled it. But you left out the remainder of what Strong's stated that helkuo means 'drag, draw, pull, persuade'. Why did you censor 'pull, persuade'?

Let's get back to the meaning of helkuo. Like the English, 'draw', it has some breadth of meaning. We can use 'draw' as in drawing a picture, drawing a gun to shoot, draw a tissue from a box (which I have just done), etc. Are you going to tell me that drawing a gun to shoot has the same meaning in English of 'draw' as drawing a tissue to blow my nose?

Elko, according to Arndt & Gingrich (1957:251), can also mean 'drag, draw'. As a transitive verb in Josephus and the LXX, it can refer to drawing something like,

• a sword;
• haul a net

In the NT, one of its meanings is 'drag',

• 'drag someone out of the temple' (Acts 21:30);
• 'dragged into the marketplace' (Acts 16:19);
• 'hale into court' (Jas 2:6).

In classical Greek and the LXX, helkuo as an intransitive verb, can mean 'flowing along of a river' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:251).

So demanding that helkuo MUST MEAN 'drag' is false according to this major Greek lexicon and I could find other Greek resources to demonstrate this point. But I think I'm wasting my time. I have provided the other meaning of helkuo above.

Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

 

[stan1953]

Do you not understand what definitions are?

No matter how badly you want helkuo to mean "woo, attract, persuade", it will never mean that

Hate to point this out, but Greek translators have already decided what it means in the context and connotation of the word used in John 6:44

I also know that the meaning you want to make this word for all its uses doesn't work in John 2:8, or the three times in John 4 or in John 12:32

 

[stan1953]

This refutation was never acknowledged.

As your example is about two totally different uses of the word in Acts, I have no idea how you see this as a refutation, but it is a very good example of how some read their Bibles eisegetically.

 

[Skala]

Just pointing out what the Greek experts say the word means. Sorry you disagree with the experts.

 

[OzSpen]

Just pointing out what the Greek experts say the word means. Sorry you disagree with the experts.

No, I don't disagree with the Greek experts. This is your distortion of what I wrote.

I disagree with the way you filtered out the meanings of the Greek experts from the Strong's reference you highlighted. You filtered the meanings of helkuo that you did not like or want.

In fact, I gave you 2 posts to demonstrate what the Greek experts say and you haven't refuted those posts.

Oz

 

[stan1953]

Just pointing out what the Greek experts say the word means. Sorry you disagree with the experts.

so then why didn't you show THE word and not a different one plus the word IN CONTEXT?

 

[Hammster]

Hate to point this out, but Greek translators have already decided what it means in the context and connotation of the word used in John 6:44

I also know that the meaning you want to make this word for all its uses doesn't work in John 2:8, or the three times in John 4 or in John 12:32

And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. (John 2:8 NASB)

Yeah, that's the definition we mean. Thanks for the reverence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. (John 2:8 NASB)

Yeah, that's the definition we mean. Thanks for the reverence.

Sure, in THAT context, yes. But the word is as fluid as the English word "draw" and DOES have different meanings in different contexts.

Is your suggestion really to believe that when Jesus said that when He was lifted up, He would drag all men to Him?

btw, per Jn 2:8, did Jesus really tell the servants to drag some water out of the jar?

 

[Hammster]

Sure, in THAT context, yes. But the word is as fluid as the English word "draw" and DOES have different meanings in different contexts.

Is your suggestion really to believe that when Jesus said that when He was lifted up, He would drag all men to Him?

No, more like water being drawn.

btw, per Jn 2:8, did Jesus really tell the servants to drag some water out of the jar?

Literally, yes. He certainly didn't tell them to woo or entice the water.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Sure, in THAT context, yes. But the word is as fluid as the English word "draw" and DOES have different meanings in different contexts.

Is your suggestion really to believe that when Jesus said that when He was lifted up, He would drag all men to Him?

No, more like water being drawn.

Please explain. I don't see it.

Literally, yes. He certainly didn't tell them to woo or entice the water.

Wrong. Please explain how one can literally drag water anywhere.

Jesus meant to extract water from the jar. Not drag it out.

As I've pointed out before, "drag" has 3 meanings:
- extraction
- traction
- attraction

What Jesus meant about being lifted up was that by His sacrificial death for mankind He was attracting mankind to Himself. Not dragging anyone anywhere.

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
Sure, in THAT context, yes. But the word is as fluid as the English word "draw" and DOES have different meanings in different contexts.

Is your suggestion really to believe that when Jesus said that when He was lifted up, He would drag all men to Him?

Please explain. I don't see it.


Wrong. Please explain how one can literally drag water anywhere.

Jesus meant to extract water from the jar. Not drag it out.

As I've pointed out before, "drag" has 3 meanings:
- extraction
- traction
- attraction

What Jesus meant about being lifted up was that by His sacrificial death for mankind He was attracting mankind to Himself. Not dragging anyone anywhere.

Extract: to get, pull, or draw out, usually with special effort, skill, or force: to extract a tooth.

That's what's meant by drag. I'm not sure what you think we are talking about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Extract: to get, pull, or draw out, usually with special effort, skill, or force: to extract a tooth.

pulling or drawing out only requires "special effort" when there is a special function. So, generally, usually not with special effort. I doubt the servants required special effort to draw wine from the jars.

 

[Hammster]

pulling or drawing out only requires "special effort" when there is a special function. So, generally, usually not with special effort. I doubt the servants required special effort to draw wine from the jars.

"Usually with special effort". Not always, though. But you introduced the word. If you disagree with it, I guess we have to go with traction or attraction. Which one do you want to use? That they attracted the water?

 

[stan1953]

And He said to them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it to him. (John 2:8 NASB)
Yeah, that's the definition we mean. Thanks for the reverence.

So obviously the meaning or connotation is dependant on the use IN context, right? They weren't DRAGGING wine out of the barrels were they?

I'm sure you meant reference.

 

[stan1953]

Literally, yes. He certainly didn't tell them to woo or entice the water.

That's right, so you approve of the word the translators use here as it doesn't threaten your POV, but you equivocate on how it can't have another connotation somewhere else? That would be the height of bias.

BTW, woo and entice were your words, again to equivocate on the issue.

Thayer's show it is sued in a metaphorical use and connotes to draw by inward power, lead, impel.

You can read what Trench has to say on it HERE.
Vine's comments;
This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse, Jhn 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Sgs 1:4; Jer 31:3, "with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

Sadly this will probably not convince any who are bound by the RT dogmas, but it is how the verse is properly rendered in the NT.