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Only the saved will call on his name.
Only believers will do this. Unbelievers certainly won't.Whosoever calls on His name in repentance is what I read in the bible.
You can't be saved before you see your need for a Saviour.
Oh I forgot, God's chosen don't have to that. They are already saved before they call on Him.
They need directions for living a holy life.Is evangelism even needed in Calvinism? If God is going to save certain people anyway?
Evangelism is the method God chose to deliver the means.Is evangelism even needed in Calvinism? If God is going to save certain people anyway?
Accepting pure charity is not work, but than you can do what you want, which out of gratitude will be pleasing to God activities.With Calvinism you see your faith as proof God saved you. You could not believe otherwise. With Arminianism you see the gospel as a job offer. And believe God will owe you salvation when you accept the offer and go to work. = two different gospels.
You cannot accept anything unless you believe = are saved.Accepting pure charity is not work, but than you can do what you want, which out of gratitude will be pleasing to God activities.
Only believers will do this. Unbelievers certainly won't.
This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".
Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.
The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.
In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".
It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.
=====================================================
In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have
Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?
And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4
I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.
But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
===========================================
Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.
==========================================
1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.
2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.
Evangelism is the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness. This is not the spreading of "theological systems". If you only had 60 seconds to witness to an unbeliever I would guess theology would not come into play, only the purity of the Good News. I also believe a Calvinist and Armenian would deliver that message in the same manner because the core truth of the Gospel can not be corrupted.This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".
Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.
The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.
In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".
It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.
=====================================================
In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have
Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?
And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4
I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.
But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
===========================================
Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.
==========================================
1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.
2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.
His choice must be arbitrary or he is a respecter of persons.Dave,I like you. I think if I were to meet you in person, you would be one of those who I couldn't help but like. Your composure in debate reminds me of someone I know here in my home town. Wish I had your qualities there.
But Dave, God does not pick some out of a bucket for salvation.
His Grace is far beyond that. He is a merciful and gracious God to all who will call on Him.
Peter said, that God's will is for no one to perish and that all will come to repentance.
Sorry I was so hard on you Brother.
Okay, but I thought no one would even seek out God unless He drew them...does He draw some people, but only part way (i.e., enough to recognize their need for God but not enough to give them saving faith)?3/4 of the seed washed out. Only the good soil brought endurance.
I see Him as no respecter of persons in that all have an opportunity to believe the Gospel.His choice must be arbitrary or he is a respecter of persons.
First, this op is waaayyy too long to discuss all of its particulars in any structurally coherent manner.This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table"...........................................................
What is the context of God not a respected of persons?I see Him as no respecter of persons in that all have an opportunity to believe the Gospel.
Your view shows respect to some and not others.
John 10: NASBOkay, but I thought no one would even seek out God unless He drew them...does He draw some people, but only part way (i.e., enough to recognize their need for God but not enough to give them saving faith)?
Peter is referring to the salvation of the Gentiles.What is the context of God not a respected of persons?
Yes the context is that salvation through Jesus Christ was not only for the Jews. The “respecter” is related to ethnicity.Peter is referring to the salvation of the Gentiles.
Up to this point he had only preached salvation to the Jews.
It means whosoever will can be saved.
Would you agree that Peter preached that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Regardless of who they are?Yes the context is that salvation through Jesus Christ was not only for the Jews. The “respecter” is related to ethnicity.
I do know this is what Peter said:Would you agree that Peter preached that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Regardless of who they are?
I do know this is what Peter said:
Acts 2: NASB
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
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