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Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

Mark Quayle

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Zero conditions for choosing= random choosing. If I choose people from a crowd, unconditionally, it would have to be totally random, otherwise, there would be conditions.

God is not choosing from a crowd. He chose from the foundation of the world. He MADE his chosen, and did not choose them on any condition of worthiness on their part, but for what was his purpose for them.

Again, the Reformers were specific about what they meant by "unconditional". You simply want to argue semantics, putting your words to the definition of "unconditional" as if that was their doctrine. You are presenting a false case. You once again, as always, fail to disqualify Reformed Theology.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Do babies sin? I understand that Adam's sin is why all death happens. But that doesn't mean we can't choose spiritual life.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
 
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renniks

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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
But the man under conviction can.
John 16:8 “And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.”
 
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Josheb

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Thank you very much for the "heads up".
I just can't buy the "no choice" position.
It makes it seem like God is picking who will, and perhaps more importantly, who won't be saved.

I'm going to investigate Pelagius.
I encourage every to familiarize themselves with their own position and the alternatives. As I noted early on in this op the most frequently occurring error in discussions is posters not correctly understanding the soteriological positions and arguing straw men. My observation, believe it or not, is this happens most often with one's own argument!

Pelagius believed common grace was sufficient, and the effects of sin were not sufficient, to enable sinful humans to seek and find salvation in their own might. A significant resistance to his views arose and Augustine was asked to address the matter. 1100 years later a similar debate arose between Luther and Erasmus.

Arminius did not argue against God picking who gets saved. This is another misbegotten idea in soteriology. For Arminius God picked those who, having been sufficiently liberated to respond, then chose Him. Arminianism does not dispute God as causal nor God as sovereign, not does it deny God's action throughout the whole process. Arminius had been a Calvinist apologist for something like 20 years before he began to part ways with Calvin.

Phil, you say you "can't buy the 'no choice' position. Do you "buy" the fact sin does not give you a choice? . Or is it only God you have problems with giving you no choice?


I recommend you give most post #193 in this op a read, especially that list of six premises I provided where Arminianism makes eisegetic inferences.
 
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Ilikecats

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But the man under conviction can.
John 16:8 “And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.”
That’s talking about the Holy Spirit convicting men of their sins. The natural man doesn’t possess the Holy Spirit.
 
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renniks

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Do we really know what Pelagias believed or only what Augustine said he believed?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Zero conditions for choosing= random choosing. If I choose people from a crowd, unconditionally, it would have to be totally random, otherwise, there would be conditions.
I find it telling that you want to qualify God's actions according to your own. You are not God. You have no standing by which to measure him.
 
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renniks

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I find it telling that you want to qualify God's actions according to your own. You are not God. You have no standing by which to measure him.
I'm not speaking of what God actually does here, but what the fatalism of Calvinism claims he does.
 
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fhansen

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The gospel-and all of Scripture-make little sense to me if salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with man's will, if he's either predestined to heaven or predestined to hell IOW. Instead I'd submit that our faith is all about the human will, that, ever since Adam, God patiently worked with man for centuries, for the very purpose of ultimately grooming and drawing and educating humanity to bring us to the point where we might finally begin to appreciate and accept and embrace the true light when we see it.

And the doctrine of election with double predestination is sort of a moot and speculative point in any case-a matter of putting the cart ahead of the horse- because we cannot know with absolute and perfect certainty just exactly who are numbered among the elect, and who are not, to begin with.
 
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Ilikecats

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John 16:8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.”

Not just a few select people. The world.
Sure he will convict but will he bring personal conviction to every single person in the world?
 
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