Why didn't Yeshua tell Saul to repent?

[visionary]

Paul did have a few days of blindness to full comprehend and meditate upon the earth changing paradigm he was presented. Since scripture has given us his "actions" more than words regarding his repentance, we are going to view the "evidence" of this convictional change imperfect as it was.

People seem to forget that every word out of Paul's mouth is his opinion, his theology, his conviction and it is good and not so good depending application. Just because the man had an experience that transformed his world, spent three years in the desert, had someone write down his experiences in ministry and never was under the tutelage of someone who followed Yeshua throughout his ministry, doesn't mean he's end all be all either.

It takes two or three witnesses to hold some validity. Searching the scriptures and praying goes a long way towards a balanced walk in Him, His Way, His Life, and in His Truth. Every experience is unique and individualized and being in constant prayer will guide you to a closer walk with Him in it.

 

[Hoshiyya]

the questions really is,

even if he was pro-Torah, is is worth defending Paul ?

 

[Norbert L]

the questions really is,

even if he was pro-Torah, is is worth defending Paul ?

That would be an additional question. I believe there could be some spiritual profit examining the question:

After all he had done against the Messianic Jews he was not told to repent? I would think that would be the first thing Yeshua said to him.

Considering Paul was there at Stephen's stoning, it is a reasonable conclusion to believe Paul heard and understood the last words of Stephen. In my view it is likely Paul didn't like what he was hearing because he understood it and what was going on at the temple at the time (Acts 6:8-10). That could be the reason why Yeshua told him, "It’s hard on you to be kicking against the ox-goads!’" (Acts 26:14)

Basically what went on afterwards in heaven after “Look!” he exclaimed, “I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” (Acts 6:56) ultimately led to the decision being made whereby Yeshua didn't think it necessary to use some first words that would include "repent" in His dialogue with him.

As you (Hoshiyya) alluded to, the Bible doesn't fill in all the gaps, that is why I find the question Lulav proposed rather intriguing.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Quote:
Considering Paul was there at Stephen's stoning, it is a reasonable conclusion to believe Paul heard and understood the last words of Stephen. In my view it is likely Paul didn't like what he was hearing because he understood it and what was going on at the temple at the time (Acts 6:8-10). That could be the reason why Yeshua told him, "It’s hard on you to be kicking against the ox-goads!’" (Acts 26:14)


Look that's all speculation that CANNOT be verified.
I am trying to deal with reality and not unanswerable speculation.
As real people in reality with a text in front of us, how do we deal with that text ?

As Torah-keepers, what profit is Paul to us?

 

[visionary]

Is it a glaring gap that Paul's story doesn't include the words repent?

2 Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Is it a glaring gap that Paul's story doesn't include the words repent?

Hey, let's say the story DID include three full chapters about him repenting.
Then what ?

Would that make reading him as pro-Torah easier?
No I don't think it would change anything. People, quite understandably, read Paul as anti-Torah, and he is in fact almost single-handedly responsible for the whole world rejecting God's law which he gave through Moses.

 

[visionary]

Hey, let's say the story DID include three full chapters about him repenting.
Then what ?

Would that make reading him as pro-Torah easier?
No I don't think it would change anything. People, quite understandably, read Paul as anti-Torah, and he is in fact almost single-handedly responsible for the whole world rejecting God's law which he gave through Moses.

I quoted the only time Paul used the term "repent". Even in it, his pride was revealed.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I quoted the only time Paul used the term "repent". Even in it, his pride was revealed.

Let's say he was proud.

David killed a guy to get his wife, a bit worse.

The point is whether they were generally pro-Torah or not, that's what matters to us, not their personal morality.

 

[Lulav]

Let's say he was proud.

David killed a guy to get his wife, a bit worse.

The point is whether they were generally pro-Torah or not, that's what matters to us, not their personal morality.

Yet we have pages and pages of Davids repentance..................

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yet we have pages and pages of Davids repentance..................

Maybe his sin was lesser ? Who knows, I wasn't there.

But like I already said:

Let's say we had "pages and pages" of Paul's repentance.
Would that make the rest of his message more or less true ?

What really matters is his message, not his personal morality. Samson wasn't perfect either, but he wasn't preaching against the Torah, and that's a big deal.

 

[Lulav]

Seems to be this kind of thinking about Paul... that he taught against the Torah... NOTHING could be further from the truth.

This subject is not about weither Paul was pro or anti Torah, it is about his beginning as a Apostle to the gentiles.

my comment was in regards to the post I replied to. Additionally, there is and has been since the 1st century (can clearly see this thinking in ACTS) a general misunderstanding of Paul's teaching regarding the Torah.

James specifically says that there were those saying that Paul is teaching against Torah and James says that they (the elders) KNOW this is not so...

Yes, which was in regards to my oP. Again you are misunderstanding that this is about Paul's teaching, in fact this is pre teaching of Paul.

Bringing up James is pushing this far into the future. But Paul was accused of teaching the Jews against Torah, this was made clear when they tried to kill him in Jerusalem when the Romans took him and he claimed his Roman citizenship. James told him to go to the temple and pay for the mens vows, but this did not change on fact that he was teaching outside of Judea for Jews to not circumcise their children.


Jews from the province of Asia (where Paul had been preaching) saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, http://biblehub.com/acts/21-28.htmshouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place (the Temple).

Yet it is interesting that when Paul came to Jerusalem then and told James and the elders what he had been doing the first response they give is to tell Paul that

(When they heard this, they praised God.) Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Why bring that up?

When Paul came face to face with the truth, I imagine he didn't need to be told specifically to repent.

Hi CoC, long time no see
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[visionary]

2 Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

Paul even thinks repentance can be for a season??

 

[Lulav]

Paul even thinks repentance can be for a season??

Maybe towards people? I think he is just saying here 'I'm sorry I did such and such (but I really am not).

Different than true Teshuvah I should think which means to turn back to G-d.

He probably never thought he turned away from G-d which may explain it.

 

[Norbert L]

Quote:

Look that's all speculation that CANNOT be verified.
I am trying to deal with reality and not unanswerable speculation.
As real people in reality with a text in front of us, how do we deal with that text ?

As Torah-keepers, what profit is Paul to us?

I agree it is speculation to degrees, but it does deal with at least some plain reality. Did Paul hear Stephen's words? I believe that the chance he was preoccupied somewhere else during that testimony is next to impossible. Then there is how much of Stephen's other actions taking place was Paul aware of? Which is more but higher degree of speculation. But the basic question is, what would of Paul made of Stephen's testimony in retrospect of what we can know of Paul's later letters?

Does anyone really think that Paul didn't hear Stephen?

 

[BukiRob]

the questions really is,

even if he was pro-Torah, is is worth defending Paul ?

In my view of scripture acts 21 makes it pretty clear Paul is pro-Torah. Its crystal clear that James and the elders are pro-Torah as are the thousands of believers in Jerusalem

 

[BukiRob]

I agree it is speculation to degrees, but it does deal with at least some plain reality. Did Paul hear Stephen's words? I believe that the chance he was preoccupied somewhere else during that testimony is next to impossible. Then there is how much of Stephen's other actions taking place was Paul aware of? Which is more but higher degree of speculation. But the basic question is, what would of Paul made of Stephen's testimony in retrospect of what we can know of Paul's later letters?

Does anyone really think that Paul didn't hear Stephen?

Paul held the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen. IMO its a difficult argument to make that he didn't hear Stephen's words

 

[chunkofcoal]

Hi CoC, long time no see
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Hi Lulav!

 

[Truthfrees]

But Paul was accused of teaching the Jews against Torah, this was made clear when they tried to kill him in Jerusalem when the Romans took him and he claimed his Roman citizenship. James told him to go to the temple and pay for the mens vows, but this did not change on fact that he was teaching outside of Judea for Jews to not circumcise their children.


Jews from the province of Asia (where Paul had been preaching) saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, http://biblehub.com/acts/21-28.htmshouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place (the Temple).

Yet it is interesting that when Paul came to Jerusalem then and told James and the elders what he had been doing the first response they give is to tell Paul that

(When they heard this, they praised God.) Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Why bring that up?

Because the new Jewish Messianics had been told lies about Paul:

"19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." - Acts 21:19-21


IMO, they were REALLY trying to kill Paul for the same reason they killed Yeshua, Stephen, and all the other ancient prophets of YHWH. Someone didn't like being told to repent and turn back to YHWH, so they told lies to stir up the crowd into murdering innocent righteous men.

THE TRUTH
"17 Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’ 19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ 21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’ " - Acts 22:17-21

THE LIE
"27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29 (For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)" - Acts 21:27-29

2 LINKS TO MORE SCRIPTURE ON WHY THE PROPHETS WERE KILLED
1. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...h=kill+prophet&begin=47&end=73&searchtype=all

2. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...++your+prophets&begin=1&end=46&searchtype=all

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the book of Acts

Paul said this to Areopagus

17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

So why wasn't he told to do this and why didn't he ever say he did?


Account #1
9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? 5 Who are you, Lord? Saul asked.
I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, he replied. 6 Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

Account #2

22:6About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me? 8 Who are you, Lord? I asked.
 I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting, he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
10 What shall I do, Lord? I asked.
 Get up, the Lord said, and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.

Account #3

26:12On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,a Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. 15Then I asked, Who are you, Lord?
 I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting, the Lord replied. 16Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.
19So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.


After all he had done against the Messianic Jews he was not told to repent? I would think that would be the first thing Yeshua said to him.

The question “why are you persecuting Me” implies the necessity for repentance. It’s a rhetorical question being asked while at the same time revealing His true identity to Paul. Paul was a servant of God during the time he was persecuting the Christians, he just didn’t know that he was on the wrong side until Jesus revealed who He is. Once Paul knew who Jesus was there was no need to tell him to repent because Paul thought he was serving God in the first place. So Paul had never actually turned away from God, he just didn’t know who Jesus was. Once he knew who Jesus was he would continue serving God but now he would know which side he was supposed to be on.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Doesn't repent mean likewise "turn to Yahweh" ? Paul certainly did this. And away from sin? Yes, that too.

Paul thought he was serving God by persecuting the Christians in accordance to the Mosaic law. Once Jesus revealed to Paul who He is all of that changed and he realized that Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied in the OT. So Paul never actually turned away from God, he just didn’t know he was on the wrong side.