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Featured Why didn't Jesus quote the rest of Isaiah 61 about himself?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Daniel Martinovich, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Quoting from linked article -------->"The longest single passage He quotes is from Isaiah 61 (in Luke 4:18-19): "The Spirit of the Lord has been given to me. He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to captives, and to the blind new sight, to set the downtrodden free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord." But Jesus quotes selectively; he appears to have deliberately omitted the last line--"and the day of vengeance of our God" (Isaiah 61:2b)--because he does not believe in a God of vengeance at all.

    Jesus knows how to connect the dots and find out where the text is truly heading, beyond the low-level consciousness of a particular moment, fear, or circumstance. He knows there is a bigger arc to the story: one that always reveals a God who is compassionate, nonviolent, and inclusive of outsiders. He knows how to "thin slice" the text, to find the overall pattern based on small windows of insight. He learned from Ezekiel, for example, that God's justice is restorative and not retributive." ~ Richard Rohr's Meditation: Scripture: Week 1 Summary
     
  2. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Yeah, seems like your creating a Jesus of your own liking.

    Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Revelation 2:20
    “Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
    ‭‭
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  3. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well that particular terrible day of the Lord had quite a bit of prophecy about it. It’s not the only one though, prophesied about or recorded as fulfilled in scripture.
     
  4. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    That’s why footnotes of that sort should be avoided.
     
  5. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    That’s quite bit of speculation about future events that your quite sure are Gospel. Interpritatiions that cannot be known as accurate or not, until they come to pass. The traditions of Jesus’s day were taught with every bit of the same confidence.

    The differance between what I brought to the table is that every single thing I said has been and is. It can be seen with hindsight as being fulfilled exactly as prophesied, yesterday, today and as sure as the Bible is the Word of God. Will continue to be fulfilled.

    You can see this yourself but you can’t accept it because of your traditions, your end time teachings. It would mean they are not accurate, as you understand them now.

    Your lining up things that can’t really be known with any accuracy until they come to pass. Even though your sure your right about them. Against things that have been clearly coming to pass.

    I think the Word of God is powerful though, and will have its way with you. Intellectually you may say no way. But God’s Word, spoken accurately has its way of bypassing the intellect and dropping right down into the spirit of a man. To come to the surface, the intellect, later as it develops inside a person.
     
  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    This is directly from Scripture:

    Matthew 23:36 Yes, all the accumulated judgment of the centuries shall break upon the heads of this very generation. (
    the generation Jesus was directly speaking to)

    But notice what God *wanted* to have happened:

    Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones all those God sends to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.

     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I do not see any of Isaiah 61:2b-11 as being fulfilled, even partially. Some may have had a preview, like buildings restored, but not to the extent that will happen when all the Lord's faithful people, [born again Christians] go to live in all of the holy Land. As described in the very next chapter; Isaiah 62:1-7 Remember; no chapter breaks originally.

    We DO have a future Daniel M, and it will be amazing as we receive the Promises of God to His people thru Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:20
     
  8. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I know what he wanted to happen. That does not mean he will not administer justice though. He has too.
     
  9. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm not so sure that He "administered justice", though - more that He allowed the consequences of "death" that sin brings.

    The way I see it - God is about *restorative* justice....not retributive justice, and the two covenants are a contrast between the two varieties of "justice".

    In the Old Covenant there was a provision that God would protect the ancient Israelites as long as they remained faithful to Him. Once the ancient Jewish leaders claimed that they had "no other God but Caesar" (recorded in John 19:15) that violated - and broke - their covenant. If that wasn't the point of the end of the Mosaic covenant - then Jesus' death was.

    However.....what did Jesus do in response? He willingly died on the cross for their transgression against Him ("Father forgive them, they know not what they've done" ~ Luke 23:34). Since Jesus is the exact representation of God - it seems to me that's something we need to pay attention to. The old covenant wasn't "perfect" (like it's stated in Hebrews 8:7).....but Jesus was. He took away the sin of this world* (John 1:29) - He didn't take revenge on us or condemn us.

    * Obviously that doesn't mean there is no longer sin in this world.

    Deuteronomy 11:22-28 ~
    22 “Be careful to obey all these commands I am giving you. Show love to the Lord your God by walking in his ways and holding tightly to him.23 Then the Lord will drive out all the nations ahead of you, though they are much greater and stronger than you, and you will take over their land. 24 Wherever you set foot, that land will be yours. Your frontiers will stretch from the wilderness in the south to Lebanon in the north, and from the Euphrates River in the east to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 25 No one will be able to stand against you, for the Lord your God will cause the people to fear and dread you, as he promised, wherever you go in the whole land.

    26 “Look, today I am giving you the choice between a blessing and a curse! 27 You will be blessed if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today. 28 But you will be cursed if you reject the commands of the Lord your God and turn away from him and worship gods you have not known before.



    Hebrews 8:8 ~ But when God found fault with the people, He said: "The day is coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.



    Hebrews 9:15 ~ For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  10. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Justice was administered on Jesus (so to speak,) so that criminals could be forgiven and restored to right standing with the government of God. There are conditions as far as individuals must meet, not just to be forgiven or pardoned. But conditions that must be met for restoration or sanctification to take place. Mainly, faith. Which is just common sense. If one cannot put their trust in God, by the very nature of the relationship. They cannot be forgiven or transformed.

    Why isn’t God forgiving Satan and his angels? Why is the majority of mankind, thus far, going to end up in hell with them?

    Because they are a danger to the peace of the entire universe! Now that is not “vengeance” as most think of the word vengeance. But to think God does not have feelings we would call vengeful on the wicked who are destroying the world and rejecting his grace just like we have those feelings; is silly. His feelings aren’t his master though. He doesn’t exist to gratify them and puts them in their proper place. They are subject to his good will. Unlike mankind who’s will is supremely committed to the gratification of their feelings and needs.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 61:2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor (a), and the day of vengeance of our God (b);

    Isaiah 61:1-2 (a) was fulfilled when Jesus was in Nazareth, for Jesus did proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. However, Jesus did not proclaim the day of vengeance of God in the same day.
    Luke4:20-21 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

    Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 61:2 (b) later in his ministry by proclaiming God's vengeance against Israel for their rejection of him.

    Luke 19:41-44 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

    Luke 21:21-22 let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

    As we can see, Jesus stopped mid sentence and stated it was fulfilled, while the 2nd half the sentence in Isaiah 62:2 would be fulfilled at a later date. This is not uncommon. Another example would be Zechariah 12:10-12. While John quotes part of a sentence as being fulfilled at the cross, another part would be fulfilled at the coming of the son of man.


    Zechariah 12:10-12 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each familya by itself

    John states Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross
    John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced

    While Jesus quotes Zechariah 12:11-12 as being fulfilled at the coming of the son of man.
    Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn,

     
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    This reads as passive to me (as if there's an implied disconnect between God & Jesus). Jesus IS God - and He willingly laid down His life.

    I, personally, wouldn't word that as "justice was administered ON Jesus" as if someone needed to pay (punishment) and God exacted that punishment on Jesus.

    I guess it depends on your view of the incarnation of Jesus. I believe John Duns Scotus' theology which is described here:

    "Jesus, Scotus said, was not "necessary" to solve any problem whatsoever--He was no mopping-up exercise after the fact--but a pure and gracious declaration of the primordial truth from the very beginning which was called the doctrine of "the primacy of Christ."

    The Incarnation of God, in Jesus, gives us the living "icon of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), who is the template for all else (6), who reconciles all things in himself (1:16), who is the headmaster in a cosmic body that follows after him (1:I8). If I may use a contemporary image: Jesus is the "hologram" for all that is happening in a holographic, constant and repetitive universe (1:19). He is the pattern for all. He does what we also must do, which is why he says, "follow me." ~ Spirit of St. Stephen's - The Mystery of the Cross (Richard Rohr, Ch. 9, Things Hidden, Scripture as Spirituality)
     
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Yeah that is basically my opinion. Especially when we get to the parts that would not begin to be fulfilled until the age of promise. When the fourth of the four gentile empires fell. No one knew, well, I say that but God did. No one knew the thing that would usher in that age would be when the general public started getting Bibles to read themselves. Began happening in northern Europe right after what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333 AD, Constantinople fell in 1453 AD. From then on Bible reading Christians and those they influnce starting "winning" the promises of this age.
    Like verse: 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
    6......you shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall you boast yourselves.
    7 For your shame you shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be to them.
    Controversial I know but that is what happened.
     
  14. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I agree as well.

    I appreciate Claninja's clearly laid out explanation (but haven't changed my mind on God NOT being characterized as a "God of vengeance"). I still believe there's a contrast between the OC and NC - and that the NC is more of a representation of God.
     
  15. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    It is pretty standard Christian theology, has always been that Jesus was punished in our place. Choose whatever way you want to say it.
    1st John 2:2 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    Propitiation: Strongs 2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party.
    Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    1st Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    And I totally, totally, totally disagree with:
    Hebrews 9:22 Indeed according to the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.....28:so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many....
    The shedding of blood is just another way of saying dying for. Ie he shed his blood for his country. Everyone knows what that means.....until they get to the Bible and get confused. Christ substitutionary sacrifice is what almost all the animal sacrifice of the OT symbolized.

    Along with everything else that God is to us. He is also the head of a government. A government cannot just "forgive" criminal activity or crimes committed. This is readily seen even on earth as it does two primary things. To the law abiding, it appears as if the government is in league with the criminal. The other thing is it encourages lawlessness and corruption. Those whom might not be predisposed to violate just and right laws, when they see other commit crimes with impunity. It engenders law breaking in those people. I've seen this and anyone else that has had some experience in the criminal justice system has also. A judge is lenient or lets a criminal off the hook. The lawbreaker is almost is never thankful and sets about amending their ways because they dodged a bullet. They become even more embolden, and mock the judge and system because they just beat the rap. Its crazy.
    Plus it is not just a matter of reform. I taught my kids. Lets say we have super rich so and so philanthropist. Who donates his time and money to the most worthy causes on the planet. But he drives his sports car around a twice the speed limit. Can the government just forgive him because his good deeds WAAAAY outweigh his one bad deed? Heck no it can't and everyone knows why. Because it would encourage speeding in others. If there is no punishment for lawlessness or reward for lawful behavior then there is by default no law. Therefore, for the sake of the public's sense of justice, justice must be served. It was, on Christ.
     
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    But there are other "theories" (which is what that is - the "theory" of atonement).
     
  17. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Well if you ignore 3/4s of the Bible, I guess. I'm guessing you don't believe in that prison called hell either?
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Scotus had said that even if there were no sin - Christ would have come to humanity incarnated to demonstrate His love for us.

    That's what I believe as well. The whole temple/old covenant system - I believe - is what makes sense in our minds ("someone HAS to pay") so God gave us that (and proved to humanity its flaws) - but then gave us something perfect in Christ ("who takes away the sin of the world").

    The way I've heard Scotus quoted is that "Jesus didn't come to change God's mind about us - He came to change OUR minds about God".
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I don't have to "ignore" any of the Bible to believe in restorative justice. I believe in a victorious God - where love wins.....truly "wins".

    1 Corinthians 15:22 ~ For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    That is what the substitutionary death on the cross does when divinely revealed to the individual. Breaks his heart, his sins are laid bare, he can now see them clearly and is in complete agreement with God that he deserves death and hell. But Christ took upon himself what the individual deserved. It breaks the heart. Tears flow freely, even from the most hardened criminal. love breaks forth in the heart for God. Not that we loved him but because he just showed us his love to us.....

    I think your looking at all this as either or. That's a lack of light on your part. All of the above is applicable. If you can't reconcile it all together in your mind, or heart. Then you just need more light. God is Agape. The word means good will. God's will is good. Rather than his will being supremely committed to his own welfare and his interests. The way sinners wills are supremely committed to their own self interest. His will is committed to the good of the universe, his whole creation. And its pure. He is not doing it for what he can get out of it. He is doing it because it is right, and good.

    He therefore does what is best, according to his infinite wisdom to bring his creation into that place that is good for all. So he feels and is all those things you say. Unfortunately it means, as you say, allowing nature to run its course at times. Sometimes though it also means killing a few folks. It certainly means setting up and maintaining a prison system to those who would overthrow the peace of heaven and cannot be reconciled.

    So....
     
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