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Why did John the Baptist have a following?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Nihilist Virus, Jul 6, 2018.

  1. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    Before John the Baptist met Jesus, why did he have a following? What had he done to establish that he was not a false prophet?
     
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  2. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It's quite obvious that he had the courage to speak against the hypocrisy of the establishment (Matthew 3:7), and because Jesus and he were of the same movement (Matthew 3:14-16, Luke 1:66), we should expect that his teaching would have been of the same essence (John 3:28-30). It is quite clear from looking at the time, that the people who followed John and Jesus were longing for a saviour that would liberate them from the oppression of the establishment and lead them in the way of truth - hence they recognised the authority of John's teaching, because it rang true with their own knowledge.
     
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  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He was a fulfillment of prophecy.

    Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    He wasn't selfish,
    he wasn't self-exalting,
    he wasn't taking people's money nor houses or wives,
    he wasn't proclaiming a message opposed to TORAH,

    he was proclaiming what TORAH prophecied would happen,
    he was making straight the way of the Master,
    he was preparing the people for the MESSIAH who all Scripture talks of,
    he ALWAYS spoke TRUTH, without any lie or shadow mixed in,

    to of a country ripe for harvest,
    a people hungry for deliverance,
    he was speaking the Word of Yahweh for their relief from sin and from self.
    he declared message for revealing YAH-SHUA ! YAHS - SALVATION at hand/ coming soon.......

    The people who were/are hungry for LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS and deliverance from sin and selfishness
    LISTENED to YAHWEH'S MESSENGER and were immersed (in water) so that
    when
    Yahshua came on the scene, they welcomed Him and believed Him,

    while those people who were not immersed in water thwarted Yahweh's Plan for themselves
    and DID NOT RECEIVE nor BELIEVE IN MESSIAH YAHSHUA when He was revealed openly.
     
  5. Nihilist Virus

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    Thanks but that doesn't really answer the question.
     
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  6. Nihilist Virus

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    That prophecy is very vague and leaves a lot to the imagination.
     
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  7. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    This doesn't answer the question.
     
  8. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    It answers the first question quite well, but it leaves the second question over to the discretion of those who recognised the authority of his teaching. You might consider 1 Corinthians 1:22-23 : the preaching that saves is not recognised because of it's signs or because it's wisdom is irrefutable (because both those can be argued against by those who are so determined to oppose it), but the preaching that saves is recognised as being truth by those who love the truth.
     
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  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    they answered the question very well.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yet, it is the answer to your question.
     
  11. John 1720

    John 1720 Harvest Worker Supporter

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    It was because he fit the description of what had been prophesied to Israel centuries before concerning the preparation for the Way of the Christ.
    A Voice crying in the Wilderness John 1 also found in (Matt. 3:1–12; Mark 1:1–8; Luke 3:1–20 )
    • 19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
      • He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
    • And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
      • He said, “I am not.”
    • “Are you the Prophet?”
      • And he answered, “No.”
    • Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
      • He said: “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness: Make straight the way of the LORD,” ’ [Isaiah 40:7] as the prophet Isaiah said.”
    However this was also prophesied again much later by the prophet Malachi, again affirming that His messenger would prepare the way before the Messiah.
    • Mal 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek,ll suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.
     
  12. Nihilist Virus

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    "A voice crying in the wilderness" and "preparing the way of the master" is pretty weak. Also, I'm pretty sure you all would have no problem citing these even if they said the opposite, such as "A voice whispering in the wilderness" and "preparing the way of the servant."

    It's just not much of a prediction.

    On top of it all, I don't think many of you replied to my thread on Deuteronomy 18 so I don't see how these prophecies should be considered to be about John.

    If I was a Christian, I'd say that we know Jesus wasn't a false prophet because of his miracles, especially the resurrection. I'd say we know John the Baptist wasn't a false prophet because Jesus approved of him. But I'm asking about *before* they met, because John certainly had a following prior to meeting Jesus.

    John the Baptist didn't do much of anything and seems both insignificant and difficult to explain from the Christian worldview. The secular worldview holds that Jesus was a disciple of John the Baptist, and this holds a lot more explanatory power. John "prepares the way" of Jesus by being his teacher. The gospels cannot allow this, so they remove that part, but they have to mention John because he had the original following. In the end, after things are patched together and edited away, you get something that doesn't make much sense.

    If anyone can tell me how John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
     
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  13. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    You'd understand so much easier after you realize Christ's words are true. That Love your neighbor as yourself is the only real way to lasting peace between people. Then it may suddenly begin to make more sense to confess one's sins, to repent. When we really get it how wrong it is to treat others poorly... this is such a moment.
     
  14. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    There's something of a logical contradiction between these two sentences. There isn't enough information about John the Baptist in the bible to support the second sentence. It is plausible to expect that given the religious climate in Israel at the time, John the Baptist would not have been the only person who was preaching. It just so happens that he is significant to Christianity because of his relationship to Jesus whereas other preachers of the time don't appear to have much of a mention (consider Mark 9:38-40).
    Could you please provide the URL's or other references to this information?
    Basically, John the Baptist was greater than everyone in terms of teaching with authority - until Jesus came along (consider Matthew 21:24-27).
     
  15. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    Yes, hence this thread.

    So then the matter has to remain speculative?

    Why? I'm not trying to argue that the claim is correct. It seems, then, that you want evidence merely that the claim is being made. I'm not sure why.

    Right, which is evidence that supports the secular position. And you want evidence that the claim is actually made by secular historians. If that's a big deal, one of us can look into it. I don't see the point at the moment, though.
     
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  16. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    Hmmm, I really couldn't answer that for you.. I am satisfied with my own understanding of it, which indicates that there is a possibility for you to gain a satisfactory understanding too.
    I'm curious, because I have never heard of this before. It is a new claim that I have encountered today:

    "The secular worldview holds that Jesus was a disciple of John the Baptist, and this holds a lot more explanatory power. John "prepares the way" of Jesus by being his teacher."

    I'd like to read more about this, and I am especially interested to read the same articles that you have found especially useful in forming that opinion.
    Well I haven't yet known that there is a thing called the secular position on John the Baptist, that says he had taught Jesus. It's a new idea to me, so I need to be informed before I can give a sufficiently valued opinion about it.
     
  17. Nihilist Virus

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    Not if we don't think the same way.

    Go to the Wiki page of John the Baptist, second paragraph, third sentence. You can look up sources 24-26.

    This explanation also makes sense of the fact that John the Baptist never became a disciple of Jesus. It seems odd that if his whole existence was all about Jesus that he would baptize Jesus and then simply walk away rather than following him and becoming a disciple. I don't know what it was that was more important to John to keep him occupied while Jesus went his own way.
     
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  18. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    First of all they met while each was still in their respective wombs and second if you don’t acknowledge the sequence of events depicted in the video further inquiry would be tantamount to a moot endeavor.
     
  19. Nihilist Virus

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    Not relevant.
     
  20. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I agree with this, but that is not all it takes. To be satisfied, one needs to only reach the necessary understanding for their own curiosity. That depends upon a number of variables that can be different between us (information, beliefs, ethics etc) - not just our way of thinking.
    I see that they have referenced books, and I have not been able to easily obtain those books online. I have also searched nearby libraries and they do not have those references available. Therefore I can only wonder at this stage where they have obtained their information to believe that Jesus was taught by John, because the bible does not provide that information. I wonder whether you have already found the answer to that question?
    He was a preacher and a professor of faith just as Jesus was, but being lesser in righteousness and anointing than Jesus, yet still fit to teach. His interest had not changed just because Jesus came along, and you can see that many who had received his teaching continued to hear him (while others desired to follow Jesus instead). When you consider 1 John 2:27, you can see that the same applies in Christianity these days - and you will notice this when you observe characters on this website. We are all largely independent in our ministry, we don't generally seek to learn from each other, and sometimes we will have a difference of opinion. Generally as you observe us interacting, you will recognise that we have unique characters, some having strengths and weaknesses that others don't have, and that's exactly the sort of relationship that prophets have always had (when you consider the likes of the OT prophets - they didn't try to draw disciples after themselves, but served The Lord independently of a loyalty to each other).

    For John the Baptist to have followed Jesus, would have meant that there was one less voice preaching repentance in the wilderness, and we would easily recognise that if he had his approval from God to be teaching, then there is nothing more that he could really gain by following Jesus.
     
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