Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

No one claiming to be a messiah? Oh come on...

Did I say that? Actually, I have acknowledged that people claim to be the Messiah even today. (And more will continue to do so) Jesus actually warned about this very thing.

You misunderstood me, what I was saying is that no one else IS the Messiah, only Jesus.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Did I say that? Actually, I have acknowledged that people claim to be the Messiah even today. (And more will continue to do so) Jesus actually warned about this very thing.

You misunderstood me, what I was saying is that no one else IS the Messiah, only Jesus.

Yeah, that's what every messiah says about himself. Yours wasn't special in that regard.

 

[amariselle]

Excuse me, but you abandoned a thread because you refused to answer the questions put to you. So who is "playing games"?

Do we REALLY need to go over this again? Seriously? I DID answer your questions, you just didn't like my answers, and so you chose to ask the same questions over and over in the hopes that I would perhaps answer differently.

And by the way, unlike you, I am not pointing my finger at any one person.

More precisely, this is the philosophy forum.

The Philosophy forum on a CHRISTIAN website. If someone doesn't want to encounter so many Christian viewpoints in response to Christian questions, surely there are other forums out there for non-Christian philosophy topics?

Why does that concern you? If the discussion here encourages them to consider their faith more closely, why would that be a bad thing?

Did I say that my concern was that they would "consider their faith more closely"? Of course not, we should all do that. I said that my concern was that their faith would be shaken or damaged. Should I not be concerned for my brothers and sisters in Christ?

Just an honest question though, why did you choose to respond to a thread entitled "Why Did Jesus Leave?" Is your purpose truly to get Christians to "consider their faith more closely"?

 

[amariselle]

Yeah, that's what every messiah says about himself. Yours wasn't special in that regard.

Your opinion. Obviously many here and elsewhere don't agree with you on that. You can state it as fact all you want, that doesn't mean it is.

And again, if you've already made up your mind on that, why are you responding to a thread discussing His ascension/leaving? What do you hope to accomplish?

 

[amariselle]

Yeah, that's what every messiah says about himself. Yours wasn't special in that regard.

When I consider this statement, and others like it that have been made on various threads and sub-forums on this site, I fail to see how the motive behind such words is to get any Christian to "consider their faith more closely."

I don't think that people who say such things are attempting to do anything of the sort. When you say to Christians on a Christian forum that their Saviour and Messiah, Jesus, "wasn't very special", no kind of honest encouragement to "consider their faith more closely" is coming across, and if you're honest with yourself, you know that. (And I truly believe you know that full well).

 

[Deidre32]

And so long as we are happy with our respective beliefs, it doesn't matter whether they're true? Is that what you're saying?

But I can explain to you why I don't believe it to be true.

I believe my beliefs to be true.

 

[Freodin]

... why are you responding to a thread discussing His ascension/leaving? What do you hope to accomplish?

It provides a valid option.

There is no verifiable answer to the OP question. Some people tried to answer it, but all they could present is their own opinion. These opinions can be more or less reasonable.

For example, Albion's first post gave what he clearly stated was his opinion... and I don't think it is reasonable. Staying around would not have "diminshed" Jesus' message.
Other opinions might be more reasonble. The old and often used: "He wanted us to have faith." is, in my opinion, not a good explanation, but it is a reasonable one.

And of course, the opinion of "Jesus 'left', because that is what humans do when they die on a cross" is both good and reasonable. You might not agree with this opinion though.

All just opinions. That is basically the reason why I didn't participate in this thread earlier... I already knew what would come from it from the start: nothing.

In an earlier post you wrote about the (friendly) atmosphere on this Forum when you joined 12 years ago. Well, I joined 14 years ago, and have been active since then. I have also seen - next to the friendliness - that hate, viciousness and hostility that Christians can show towards unbelievers, people who question them, or other Christians who hold to slightly different beliefs.

My facit from all that: Christians in general are not in any way different from non-Christians. The love they show is not different from the love that non-Christians can show... and that is true for the hate also.

Christians are just humans. They are not filled by any Spirit, they are not guided by any God, they don't have access to any kind of divine wisdom.

If Jesus had stuck around, that might have been different. But as he didn't, we are stuck with people who proclaim to speak for him... and common church goers who proclaim their opinions "from the Bible" are not that much different from people who call themselves "prophets" or "messiahs" in that regard.

 

[SteveB28]

That's all you think Jesus was? A "Jewish rabble rouser?"

Fair enough. If that's all you believe about Him, of course that will be your reasoning.

That's plainly what those of the time thought of him......if he existed. After all, they did kill him didn't they?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Do we REALLY need to go over this again? Seriously? I DID answer your questions, you just didn't like my answers, and so you chose to ask the same questions over and over in the hopes that I would perhaps answer differently.

No, you abandoned the thread, refusing to answer the questions put to you. Shall I quote the questions you didn't answer?

The Philosophy forum on a CHRISTIAN website. If someone doesn't want to encounter so many Christian viewpoints in response to Christian questions, surely there are other forums out there for non-Christian philosophy topics?

Philosophy is philosophy. It's not about "Christian viewpoints," but about the reasoning behind one's positions.

Did I say that my concern was that they would "consider their faith more closely"? Of course not, we should all do that. I said that my concern was that their faith would be shaken or damaged. Should I not be concerned for my brothers and sisters in Christ?

Why do assume that that's a bad thing? My faith has eroded, and I don't consider that a bad thing.

Just an honest question though, why did you choose to respond to a thread entitled "Why Did Jesus Leave?" Is your purpose truly to get Christians to "consider their faith more closely"?

My purpose is conversation, as I already made clear on many occasions.

Your opinion. Obviously many here and elsewhere don't agree with you on that. You can state it as fact all you want, that doesn't mean it is.

My opinion? No, it's a fact that there are individuals who have claimed to be messiah and have asserted to be the only one. Saying "that's just your opinion" seems to be your go-to retort when you haven't got anything better to say.

When I consider this statement, and others like it that have been made on various threads and sub-forums on this site, I fail to see how the motive behind such words is to get any Christian to "consider their faith more closely."

I don't think that people who say such things are attempting to do anything of the sort. When you say to Christians on a Christian forum that their Saviour and Messiah, Jesus, "wasn't very special", no kind of honest encouragement to "consider their faith more closely" is coming across, and if you're honest with yourself, you know that. (And I truly believe you know that full well).

I never said that my sole reason for being here was to encourage Christians to "consider their faith more closely." You are misinterpreting my words, whether deliberately or through ignorance. In any case, I think you're wrong. Pointing out that Jesus wasn't special (in claiming to be a messiah) might very well encourage someone to consider their faith more closely. They might ask questions such as, "If others have also claimed to be the one true messiah, how do I know that Jesus really is? What distinguishes him from the others?"

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe my beliefs to be true.

Obviously you do, but that doesn't remotely answer my question.

 

[SteveB28]

When I consider this statement, and others like it that have been made on various threads and sub-forums on this site, I fail to see how the motive behind such words is to get any Christian to "consider their faith more closely."

I don't think that people who say such things are attempting to do anything of the sort. When you say to Christians on a Christian forum that their Saviour and Messiah, Jesus, "wasn't very special", no kind of honest encouragement to "consider their faith more closely" is coming across, and if you're honest with yourself, you know that. (And I truly believe you know that full well).

He certainly wasn't very special (if he existed) in claiming to be a messiah in first century Palestine. Josephus et al report that there a significant number of apocalyptic preachers making a name for themselves at that time. In that regard, there was nothing unique about him.

 

[amariselle]

No, you abandoned the thread, refusing to answer the questions put to you. Shall I quote the questions you didn't answer?

Quote the questions all you want, it doesn't prove I didn't answer them.

The problem is, I shouldn't have even bothered, because it seems you were never interested in any answers other than the ones you were specifically looking for, and ever since then you have accused me of not answering at all.

Philosophy is philosophy. It's not about "Christian viewpoints," but about the reasoning behind one's positions.

Does the question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" pertain to the Christian faith or not?

There actually IS such a thing as Christian Philosophy. Philosophy is impacted by particular worldviews, like it or not.

Why do assume that that's a bad thing? My faith has eroded, and I don't consider that a bad thing.

I think that's a terrible thing.

My purpose is conversation, as I already made clear on many occasions.

So, why are you interested in the question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" You've already made it quite clear that you don't believe Jesus "was anything special" to begin with.

My opinion? No, it's a fact that there are individuals who have claimed to be messiah and have asserted to be the only one. Saying "that's just your opinion" seems to be your go-to retort when you haven't got anything better to say.

Once again....I never said that no one else has ever claimed to be the Messiah, and Jesus Himself warned of this. What I actually said was, it is your opinion that Jesus isn't the Messiah.

I never said that my sole reason for being here was to encourage Christians to "consider their faith more closely." You are misinterpreting my words, whether deliberately or through ignorance. In any case, I think you're wrong. Pointing out that Jesus wasn't special (in claiming to be a messiah) might very well encourage someone to consider their faith more closely. They might ask questions such as, "If others have also claimed to be the one true messiah, how do I know that Jesus really is? What distinguishes him from the others?"

Except, you aren't just saying that His claims of being the Messiah were "nothing special", you are saying that He WASN'T the Messiah at all, and that He is just like everyone else who claimed to be. So, what are you honestly hoping to accomplish by saying these things on a Christian forum?

 

[amariselle]

That's plainly what those of the time thought of him......if he existed. After all, they did kill him didn't they?

The religious leaders had him killed, yes. But don't you think they could have been mistaken?

And clearly not everyone at the time thought he was a "rabble rouser."

 

[amariselle]

He certainly wasn't very special (if he existed) in claiming to be a messiah in first century Palestine. Josephus et al report that there a significant number of apocalyptic preachers making a name for themselves at that time. In that regard, there was nothing unique about him.

Please read what I wrote regarding this.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Quote the questions all you want, it doesn't prove I didn't answer them.

The problem is, I shouldn't have even bothered, because it seems you were never interested in any answers other than the ones you were specifically looking for, and ever since then you have accused me of not answering at all.

The problem seems to be that you think any answer you give is sufficient to satisfy the question. It's not. You had no satisfactory answer to our questions about whether Yahweh is morally obligated to intervene or not. You then abandoned the thread. That's fine. You aren't obligated to continue the discussion. But don't accuse others of "playing games" if that's the way you want to "play" it.

Does the question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" pertain to the Christian faith or not?

There actually IS such a thing as Christian Philosophy. Philosophy is impacted by particular worldviews, like it or not.

Yes, it does pertain to Christianity. But this isn't a Q&A forum where non-Christians ask a question, have it answered by a Christian, and then the thread is closed. That seems to be your impression.

I think that's a terrible thing.

Why would it be a terrible thing?

So, why are you interested in the question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" You've already made it quite clear that you don't believe Jesus "was anything special" to begin with.

What relevance does my interest in this specific thread have to do with you?

Once again....I never said that no one else has ever claimed to be the Messiah, and Jesus Himself warned of this. What I actually said was, it is your opinion that Jesus isn't the Messiah.

"That's like, your opinion man."

Except, you aren't just saying that His claims of being the Messiah were "nothing special", you are saying that He WASN'T the Messiah at all, and that He is just like everyone else who claimed to be. So, what are you honestly hoping to accomplish by saying these things on a Christian forum?

Are you able to deal with what I've actually written rather than inventing positions for me?

 

[amariselle]

The problem seems to be that you think any answer you give is sufficient to satisfy the question. It's not. You had no satisfactory answer to our questions about whether Yahweh is morally obligated to intervene or not. You then abandoned the thread. That's fine. You aren't obligated to continue the discussion. But don't accuse others of "playing games" if that's the way you want to "play" it.

I'm not "playing" at all, my faith in Jesus is not a game to me and never will be.

And thank you for clarifying that I gave an answer, but that you didn't find it "satisfactory", this was my point. Now we can move on I hope.

Yes, it does pertain to Christianity. But this isn't a Q&A forum where non-Christians ask a question, have it answered by a Christian, and then the thread is closed. That seems to be your impression.

The question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" pertains specifically to His ascension, which was clarified further in the OP regarding the usual explanations for His leaving. As such this question is very much a Christian one.

Why would it be a terrible thing?

I think that is self-explanatory, and as you were a Christian, I don't need to spell it out for you.

What relevance does my interest in this specific thread have to do with you?

Your interest is "relevant" to me if all you want to do is pick apart the Christian faith. (On a Christian forum)

"That's like, your opinion man."

It's true, we ALL have opinions.

Can you point to the post where I said that he wasn't the messiah? More precisely, I said that he wasn't the only one to have claimed to be such. Are you able to deal with what I've actually written rather than inventing positions for me?

Ok, fair enough. Do you believe that Jesus was telling the truth when He said He is the Messiah?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm not "playing" at all, my faith in Jesus is not a game to me and never will be.

And thank you for clarifying that I gave an answer, but that you didn't find it "satisfactory", this was my point. Now we can move on I hope.

Ah, so you do think that any answer you give will automatically be good enough, even if, upon examination, it really isn't. It's not so much about genuinely satisfying the question then, but about being able to say, "I gave an answer." You might as well add, "Sure, it was badly reasoned, but at least it was an answer!"

The question "Why Did Jesus Leave?" pertains specifically to His ascension, which was clarified further in the OP regarding the usual explanations for His leaving. As such this question is very much a Christian one.

Yes, but asked on the Philosophy board, not on the Exploring Christianity board. You need to revise your expectations accordingly.

I think that is self-explanatory, and as you were a Christian, I don't need to spell it out for you.

I don't consider it self-explanatory at all, so you'll need to explain. Why is it such a terrible thing for one's faith to erode?

Your interest is "relevant" to me if all you want to do is pick apart the Christian faith. (On a Christian forum)

You do understand that you've ventured onto the Philosophy forum, correct?

It's true, we ALL have opinions.

As you are fond of reminding us.

Ok, fair enough. Do you believe that Jesus was telling the truth when He said He is the Messiah?

I see no reason to believe his claims about being a messiah, assuming that he did indeed make such claims and that they were not attributed to him by others.

 

[amariselle]

Ah, so you do think that any answer you give will automatically be good enough, even if, upon examination, it really isn't. It's not so much about genuinely satisfying the question then, but about being able to say, "I gave an answer." You might as well add, "Sure, it was badly reasoned, but at least it was an answer!"

Whether or not someone else simply decides to state that I gave a "badly reasoned answer" has no bearing on whether is was actually badly reasoned, nor does it indicate whether or not the answer given was even honestly considered. People can have biases and presuppositions that cause them to automatically dismiss even well thought out answers that others give.

Yes, but asked on the Philosophy board, not on the Exploring Christianity board. You need to revise your expectations accordingly.

A question about Jesus asked on a Christian forum. You can expect Christian answers and viewpoints. If you think there shouldn't be any, it is YOU who needs to revise your expectations accordingly. Again, Christian philosophy is a real thing.

I don't consider it self-explanatory at all, so you'll need to explain. Why is it such a terrible thing for one's faith to erode?

If you were truly a Christian once, then you know the answer from a Christian standpoint.

You do understand that you've ventured onto the Philosophy forum, correct?

Absolutely. You understand that you are on a Christian forum in the philosophy section addressing a question about Jesus' Ascension after rising from the dead, right?

As you are fond of reminding us.

Maybe that's because you are fond of giving the same objections and reasons to the opinions and beliefs of Christians.

I see no reason to believe his claims about being a messiah, assuming that he did indeed make such claims and that they were not attributed to him by others.

Then, I ask again, what are you hoping to accomplish by saying that "Jesus was nothing special" on a Christian forum?

 

[HitchSlap]

I much prefer an honest answer over a Christian one.

 

[Albion]

Then, I ask again, what are you hoping to accomplish by saying that "Jesus was nothing special" on a Christian forum?

There aren't many Christians to torment on an Atheist forum.