Why did Jesus Leave?

[stevenfrancis]

How do you know that "made himself known to me" was not a delusion on your part? Please note, I am not claiming that you are deluded, but how would you know if you were?

More than anything else, I suppose, my continued clarity, sanity, and reasoning ability since Christ. I couple this with the fact that certainly millions, if not billions of persons over history have experienced the same thing, if perhaps in different ways and at different times in their lives.

 

[Chriliman]

If that's what you mean by "kingdom of god," then he clearly failed.

I didn't say the kingdom of God is fully realized on earth yet. If that were the case, there'd be no evil on earth. I said God is working towards that final goal.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I didn't say the kingdom of God is fully realized on earth yet. If that were the case, there'd be no evil on earth. I said God is working towards that final goal.

Is he working towards it or has he accomplished it? Make up your mind.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Faith, as far as I understand it, is not by any means a 'path of knowledge'. Rather it is a state of being which opens a person to the presence of the Holy Spirit, who inspires one to be more receptive to the both the written and living word of God. Faith, for me, came DURING my search for the right path of knowledge. Oversimplification: At some point during my search, Jesus Christ made himself known to me, (He stands at the door and knocks), and I became willing to let Him in. Now, when I DO study the written word, by the grace of God, I study it in the light of Christ. So for me, all things point to Jesus. Either from the past in anticipation of Him, or from the present and future as fulfillment. Then, my Christilogical experience of the written word, combined with a sacramental life (which effects my character and action by sacramental grace), combines to form my overall faith life which informs all I say, do, and think about. So, how can I invoke anything but faith in Jesus Christ to vanquish doubt, when it is precisely this knowledge and way of life that DOES vanquish doubt for me. I am being honest about my experience, however that may come off in conversation or debate, it is genuine, even if not useful for the other person.

I don't doubt your sincerity, or the sincerity of any believer when they say that they have had a religious experience that, in their mind, is interpreted as a glimpsing of certain divine truths. Such experiences are not uncommon, as you pointed out. What interests me (and most other skeptics of religion) is whether the supposed divine wisdom gleaned from such experiences is indeed wisdom and whether it genuinely originated from something divine.

 

[Albion]

Leaving was proof that he accomplished his mission?

Maybe "proof" wasn't the right word there, but I'd say that it signals his own view of the matter. To have stayed on could suggest that something he intended to do had not been accomplished yet.

 

[Albion]

If that's what you mean by "kingdom of god," then he clearly failed.

He said "toward." Don't be working so hard to find fault that you misrepresent what has been told to you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Maybe "proof" wasn't the right word there, but I'd say that it signals his own view of the matter. To have stayed on could suggest that something he intended to do had not been accomplished yet.

I don't really have a view to push or promote here, since it seems to me to all depend on one's view of Christ's mission and how it is to be accomplished. I'm only experimenting with ideas here... More interesting, to me anyway, is how a Biblical literalist would interpret Christ's "ascension into heaven" in a post-Copernican world. But that's for another thread.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

He said "toward." Don't be working so hard to find fault that you misrepresent what has been told to you.

I'm sorry, but I misread. There was no intent to misrepresent.

 

[Albion]

I don't really have a view to push or promote here, since it seems to me to all depend on one's view of Christ's mission and how it is to be accomplished. I'm only experimenting with ideas here... More interesting, to me anyway, is how a Biblical literalist would interpret Christ's "ascension into heaven" in a post-Copernican world. But that's for another thread.

Few Christians think that he literally rose into the sky until he was seated on a cloud or some other planet, etc. And the actual wording of the passage in Scripture doesn't say anything like that.

 

[Albion]

I'm sorry, but I misread. There was no intent to misrepresent.

Thanks.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Few Christians think that he literally rose into the sky until he was seated on a cloud, etc. And the actual wording of the passage in Scripture doesn't say anything like that.

Acts 1:9, read literally, says pretty much exactly that. But as I said, for another thread.

 

[Albion]

Acts 1:9, read literally, says pretty much exactly that. But as I said, for another thread.

You can't be serious. All that that verse says is that a cloud obscured their view of him. It says nothing about heaven at all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Few Christians think that he literally rose into the sky until he was seated on a cloud, etc. And the actual wording of the passage in Scripture doesn't say anything like that.

Well, you are right that it does not say "seated on a cloud"....
Here's the available translations on biblegateway >>>
Acts 1:9
KJ21
And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
ASV
And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
AMP
And after He said these things, He was caught up as they looked on, and a cloud took Him up out of their sight.
AMPC
And when He had said this, even as they were looking [at Him], He was caught up, and a cloud received and carried Him away out of their sight.
BRG
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
CEB
After Jesus said these things, as they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud took him out of their sight.
CJB
After saying this, he was taken up before their eyes; and a cloud hid him from their sight.
CEV
After Jesus had said this and while they were watching, he was taken up into a cloud. They could not see him,
DARBY
And having said these things he was taken up, they beholding [him], and a cloud received him out of their sight.
DLNT
And having said these things, while they were looking He was lifted-up. And a cloud received Him from their eyes.
DRA
And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight.
ERV
After Jesus said this, he was lifted up into the sky. While they were watching, he went into a cloud, and they could not see him.
ESV
And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
ESVUK
And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
EXB
After he said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud ·hid him from [or took him out of; C a reference to the cloud chariot; Dan. 7:13–14] their sight [C a description of Christ’s ascension into heaven].
GNV
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up: for a cloud took him up out of their sight.
GW
After he had said this, he was taken to heaven. A cloud hid him so that they could no longer see him.
GNT
After saying this, he was taken up to heaven as they watched him, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
HCSB
After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight.
ICB
After he said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up. A cloud hid him from their sight.
ISV
After saying this, Jesus was taken up while those who had gathered together were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
PHILLIPS
When he had said these words he was lifted up before their eyes till a cloud hid him from their sight. While they were still gazing up into the sky as he went, suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them and said, “Men of Galilee, why are you standing here looking up into the sky? This very Jesus who has been taken up from you into Heaven will come back in just the same way as you have seen him go.”
JUB
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
KJV
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
AKJV
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
LEB
And after he had said these things, while they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight.
TLB
It was not long afterwards that he rose into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, leaving them staring after him.
MSG
These were his last words. As they watched, he was taken up and disappeared in a cloud. They stood there, staring into the empty sky. Suddenly two men appeared—in white robes! They said, “You Galileans!—why do you just stand here looking up at an empty sky? This very Jesus who was taken up from among you to heaven will come as certainly—and mysteriously—as he left.”
MEV
When He had spoken these things, while they looked, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him from their sight.
MOUNCE
And when he had said these words, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud took him away from · their eyes.
NOG
After he had said this, he was taken to heaven. A cloud hid him so that they could no longer see him.
NABRE
When he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him from their sight.
NASB
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
NCV
After he said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
NET
After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight.
NIRV
After Jesus said this, he was taken up to heaven. The apostles watched until a cloud hid him from their sight.
NIV
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
NIVUK
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
NKJV
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
NLV
When Jesus had said this and while they were still looking at Him, He was taken up. A cloud carried Him away so they could not see Him.
NLT
After saying this, he was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see him.
NRSV
When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
NRSVA
When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
NRSVACE
When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
NRSVCE
When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
OJB
And having said these things, while they were looking on, in an aliyah ascent to Shomayim, Moshiach was taken up; and an anan (cloud) took him away from their eyes.
RSV
And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
RSVCE
And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
TLV
After saying all this—while they were watching—He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
VOICE
As He finished this commission, He began to rise from the ground before their eyes until the clouds obscured Him from their vision.
WEB
When he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight.
WE
When Jesus had said this, he went up. They watched him going. Then a cloud hid him, and they did not see him any more.
WYC
And when he had said these things, in their sight he was lifted up, and a cloud received him from their eyes.
YLT
And these things having said -- they beholding -- he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;

 

[Chriliman]

Is he working towards it or has he accomplished it? Make up your mind.

Stop misrepresenting what I say and you may begin to understand. I didn't say that he has accomplished the fully realized kingdom on earth yet. I did say he has accomplished his work as an individual man on the cross.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You can't be serious. All that that verse says is that a cloud obscured their view of him. It says nothing about heaven at all.

He was "taken up" and a "cloud received him." Acts 1:11 clarifies where he went.

 

[Albion]

He was "taken up" and a "cloud received him." Acts 1:11 clarifies where he went.

Really? To me it says nothing about the nature of heaven and yet you were trying to bring home the idea that a "literal" reading of this verse would tell us that Jesus was propelled through the air to a heaven that can be located and described like we'd locate and describe France.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Really? To me it says nothing about the nature of heaven and yet you were trying to bring home the idea that a "literal" reading of this verse would tell us that Jesus was propelled through the air to a heaven that can be located and described like we'd locate and describe France.

A literal reading of the verse tells us that Jesus was "taken up," "received by a cloud," and disappeared. We later learn that this in the manner in which he travelled to heaven - upward, into the sky. This has been the premise of countless artistic depictions of the event, such as this one:

 

[Albion]

A literal reading of the verse tells us that Jesus was "taken up," "received by a cloud," and disappeared.

Yes, and that's the whole of it.

(At least, I got you to read it. )

 

[Deidre32]

I'm somewhat confused by what you're trying to say. Are you saying that it doesn't matter whether it is true ("neither is right or wrong"), so long as it makes you happy?

Faith isn’t about proving something right or wrong. I believe it’s right for me. And I can share my beliefs, but if you disbelieve, it doesn’t make you right and me wrong. It doesn’t make me right and you wrong. We just have different beliefs. I believe that if more people came to God, they’d live happier lives, but again, this is my belief. You can’t prove what I believe to be untrue, anymore that I can prove to you that it is true.

 

[devolved]

His mission was accomplished. What's more, I suppose it could also be argued that the Ascension was further proof, after the Resurrection itself, that he'd accomplished it.

Can't you at least admit that it's likewise could be considered as a ploy to explain as to why we don't see physical appearance of the resurrected Jesus, which would be somewhat a prerequisite for skeptics?

"Oh, he left... by he's coming back, or you'll see him after you die".

It seems like an awfully convenient excuse as to why we don't see anything nearly what's described in the Bible in terms of the manifestations of God... and we have to largely rely on the story.

Is the story really enough to believe? If we have to believe prior for that belief to manifest, then we can do so with any belief.

For example, if you believe that the milk carton will fulfill your prayers, then of course you will interpret everything as the doing of milk carton. That's why sports players have rituals, because they ascribe success of what they are doing to some lucky charm as ritual, like lucky socks and etc.

The reason I've asked the question to begin with is precisely because it would seem like if indeed the story is made up, there's no way of knowing that it is other than a hunch. So, why would anyone invest effort into such belief or faith beyond pragmatic applications of such faith?

Hence, why wouldn't Jesus provide us something a lot more conclusive?