Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

The term is only as "necessary" as its accuracy in describing a situation. Simple logic dictates that, if Christians or Muslims talk about the existence of "one true God", it follows that they consider all other proposed gods as being 'untrue'.

The belief in something untrue is usually described as a delusion. It doesn't necessarily imply mental illness, but it does suggest confusion. For example, when the majority of humans believed that the earth was the centre of a revolving universe, they were deluded. But they weren't mentally ill.

You are of course free to use whichever word you want. My thoughts on it remain the same, it is a loaded word that I choose not to use to describe someone simply because they believe something different from what I believe. There are far better words in my opinion.

 

[SteveB28]

You are of course free to use whichever word you want. My thoughts on it remain the same, it is a loaded word that I choose not to use to describe someone simply because they believe something different from what I believe. There are far better words in my opinion.

Fine. Do you believe that the Islamic and Hindu gods are real? Are they true?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The point is that I would never call people "deluded" just because they have a different faith than I do. I have never heard any other Christians say such a thing about a non-Christian and their faith either.

Jesus says in Revelation the whole world is deluded.
Maybe directly, maybe indirectly - still deluded.
Why else would His Word say : "the whole world REFUSES TO STOP WORSHIPING DEMONS". ?
And this after one-third of the world's population (perhaps 2.8 billion people?)
are KILLED by the angel(s) sent by God.
So then, all around, death, devastation, destruction, famine, pestilence, war, and worse.
And NO ONE things,
not even one thought, of turning to God for help ?

Not only are they all deluded, but generations have been before them.

 

[amariselle]

Jesus says in Revelation the whole world is deluded.
Maybe directly, maybe indirectly - still deluded.
Why else would His Word say : "the whole world REFUSES TO STOP WORSHIPING DEMONS". ?
And this after one-third of the world's population (perhaps 2.8 billion people?)
are KILLED by the angel(s) sent by God.
So then, all around, death, devastation, destruction, famine, pestilence, war, and worse.
And NO ONE things,
not even one thought, of turning to God for help ?

Not only are they all deluded, but generations have been before them.

Which verse in Revelation are you referring to?

Also, that doesn't change my stance on labeling people "delusional." Jesus is God and He will judge the living and the dead, not me.

 

[amariselle]

Fine. Do you believe that the Islamic and Hindu gods are real? Are they true?

No, I do not believe they are gods. There are, in my opinion many elements of truth in other religions however. But as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.

I think you already knew how I would answer your question however, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

In any case, I can disagree with someone else's beliefs without throwing loaded and potentially hurtful words at them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Also, that doesn't change my stance on labeling people "delusional." Jesus is God and He will judge the living and the dead, not me.

Jesus is God and He is the Judge, Yes.
He says (over and over ) the world is all deceived , then His Father gives them over to believe their own delusions, because they reject Jesus, they reject the Light.

You can agree with Him or disagree with Him, yes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In any case, I can disagree with someone else's beliefs without throwing loaded and potentially hurtful words at them.

What could you possibly say, or
how then can you harm someone who is separated from God, dead in paganism and sin, and has no hope in the world without Christ ?

 

[amariselle]

Jesus is God and He is the Judge, Yes.
He says (over and over ) the world is all deceived , then His Father gives them over to believe their own delusions, because they reject Jesus, they reject the Light.

You can agree with Him or disagree with Him, yes.

How are we to approach people who are "deceived" though? Is it by labeling them all "delusional"? Do you really think they would ever want to hear anything more we have to say after that?

 

[amariselle]

What could you possibly say, or
how then can you harm someone who is separated from God, dead in paganism and sin, and has no hope in the world without Christ ?

I don't want to harm anyone, that's my point.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't want to harm anyone, that's my point.

Yes, and if they suffer and die and are tortured because they continue in sin,
and
you never once warned them about the suffering and death that is certain if they continue in sin,
then you might have some guilt attributed by God because you did not warn them of certain punishment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How are we to approach people who are "deceived" though? Is it by labeling them all "delusional"? Do you really think they would ever want to hear anything more we have to say after that?

They might reject anything any of us ever say.
They already rejected anything they heard from Jesus or the Bible.
So
what is the chance they will listen to ANYTHING in order to have any sorrow for repentance, if it is possible that God grants them repentance ?
ALL of the believers in the NT KNEW God's JUSTICE, and His Mercy - and that if they continued in SIN , they were destined for JUDGMENT/ PUNISHMENT...
By grace in Jesus God saved them from that certain punishment....
TELL WHAT JESUS DOES !
HOW did JESUS save you from sin and from death ?

 

[amariselle]

Yes, and if they suffer and die and are tortured because they continue in sin,
and
you never once warned them about the suffering and death that is certain if they continue in sin,
then you might have some guilt attributed by God because you did not warn them of certain punishment.

So you think calling them "delusional" is warning them?

Do you also perhaps agree with angry picketers who yell and rant at people who are believing/doing things they don't agree with?

There is a huge difference between warning people (sharing the Gospel of Christ) and name calling to get our point across.

 

[SteveB28]

No, I do not believe they are gods. There are, in my opinion many elements of truth in other religions however. But as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him.

I think you already knew how I would answer your question however, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

In any case, I can disagree with someone else's beliefs without throwing loaded and potentially hurtful words at them.

Good grief - finally!

So, you view those people as holding a belief in something which, in your opinion, is not true or real.

You've just defined a delusion.

And they would hold the same view about your belief - that it is false or delusional.

You both can't be right about your beliefs. But you could both be wrong.

To repeat my initial question - how can either of you be sure that what you believe isn't a delusion?

 

[amariselle]

They might reject anything any of us ever say.
They already rejected anything they heard from Jesus or the Bible.

Yes, and people are free to reject Jesus, He never forces Himself on anyone. Too many Christians are consumed with trying to force non-Christians to accept Christ. Where has this ever gotten anyone? How did Jesus tell His disciples to deal with people who refused the accept Him?

So
what is the chance they will listen to ANYTHING in order to have any sorrow for repentance, if it is possible that God grants them repentance ?

What do you mean "if it is possible that God grants them repentance," repentance is a choice we make to come before God and truly confess our sins.

ALL of the believers in the NT KNEW God's JUSTICE, and His Mercy - and that if they continued in SIN , they were destined for JUDGMENT/ PUNISHMENT...
By grace in Jesus God saved them from that certain punishment....

Yes, the believers know this, but unbelievers do not or have chosen to reject Jesus altogether.

TELL WHAT JESUS DOES !

We can tell what Jesus does WITHOUT name calling, negative labels and insults.

HOW did JESUS save you from sin and from death ?

The same way He saves all who believe in Him.

 

[amariselle]

Good grief - finally!

So, you view those people as holding a belief in something which, in your opinion, is not true or real.

You've just defined a delusion.

And they would hold the same view about your belief - that it is false or delusional.

You both can't be right about your beliefs. But you could both be wrong.

To repeat my initial question - how can either of you be sure that what you believe isn't a delusion?

Congratulations. It seems you got what you wanted out of what I wrote.

As for me, regardless of what you think I said or should say, it doesn't change the fact that I'm still not interested in hurtful labels or name calling.

And that's the last I'll say on this subject as we've been off-topic long enough.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We can tell what Jesus does WITHOUT name calling, negative labels and insults.

GOOD! That's what to do then. IF you know someone is deluded, deceived, an unrepentant sinner, you may speak the truth to them in whatever way you are able to WITHOUT encouraging their repulsive sin, or their rebellion, or their delusion, or their continued deception.

The same way He saves all who believe in Him.

Telling anyone that won't help anybody - it doesn't mean anything.

 

[amariselle]

GOOD! That's what to do then. IF you know someone is deluded, deceived, an unrepentant sinner, you may speak the truth to them in whatever way you are able to WITHOUT encouraging their repulsive sin, or their rebellion, or their delusion, or their continued deception.

Just because I'm not interested in name calling and using loaded words to get my point, across does not mean I want to encourage people in their "repulsive sin." Those who use such tactics, are, in my opinion, bullies. They are full of a lot of grand talk and seem to have forgotten that they too are sinners, saved by Christ through no merit of their own.

Telling anyone that won't help anybody - it doesn't mean anything.

What are you saying here?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Name calling is not required, per se, and that is not the point (I don't think it ever was the point in this thread....)
People of the world are all deluded. They are all deceived. Just like all believers once were. That is the point. REALIZING the TRUTH/ and that they all are NOT SAVED, but they all are deluded and deceived. Simple.
That is simply what the Bible says from front to back.

Just because I'm not interested in name calling and using loaded words to get my point, across does not mean I want to encourage people in their "repulsive sin." Those who use such tactics, are, in my opinion, bullies. They are full of a lot of grand talk and seem to have forgotten that they too are sinners, saved by Christ through no merit of their own.
What are you saying here?

You could point to 3000 people all saved on one day in the NT,
and say GOD SAVED ALL THOSE PEOPLE THE SAME WAY.
So what ?
That means nothing.
Today, if you know ten people, and offer to someone who is deceived
the lives of these ten people
and say "these ten people were all saved by God the same way"
they're just going to say "SO WHAT?"
and wonder why you even bothered ......

 

[amariselle]

Name calling is not required, per se, and that is not the point (I don't think it ever was the point in this thread....)
People of the world are all deluded. They are all deceived. Just like all believers once were. That is the point. REALIZING the TRUTH/ and that they all are NOT SAVED, but they all are deluded and deceived. Simple.
That is simply what the Bible says from front to back.

You could point to 3000 people all saved on one day in the NT,
and say GOD SAVED ALL THOSE PEOPLE THE SAME WAY.
So what ?
That means nothing.
Today, if you know ten people, and offer to someone who is deceived
the lives of these ten people
and say "these ten people were all saved by God the same way"
they're just going to say "SO WHAT?"
and wonder why you even bothered ......

You have misunderstood me entirely. Let me clarify my statement for you. Jesus saved me the same way He saved all who believe in Him, through His death and resurrection.

How we come to know of Jesus' death and resurrection may differ, but His saving work was done once for all mankind.

But yes, we're off topic here, so let's move on.

 

[SteveB28]

Congratulations. It seems you got what you wanted out of what I wrote.

As for me, regardless of what you think I said or should say, it doesn't change the fact that I'm still not interested in hurtful labels or name calling.

And that's the last I'll say on this subject as we've been off-topic long enough.

To repeat: how do you know that what you believe is not a delusion, just as you would portray the belief of 2 billion Muslims?

And this is very much 'on topic'. Before one can consider why Jesus might or might not 'return' to earth one day, one must establish why it is that one believes he could.