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Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

tonychanyt

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And God said to Tonychan: I did not create humanity to be mindless puppets who are not allowed to ask questions
Sure you can ask questions. Please quote me where I assert that you are not allowed to ask questions. For the record, by all means, I encourage you to ask questions.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. It is a bad habit and not a Christian one. How often do you read the Bible? Feel free to join Familiarize yourself with the whole Bible by daily reading.

Also, it is a bad habit to talk about God without knowing him first. I don't encourage it. It only advertises your ignorance.
 
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tonychanyt

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It has already been pointed out to you that your approach of responding to questions with "Are you wiser than God" is rude and leads to shutting down discussion
You asked me the same question: Are you wise than God?

I didn't find it rude. I answered it.

So, are you wiser than God?

Do you think it is a rude question? If yes, then why did you ask me that "rude" question?

So, are you wiser than God?
 
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St_Worm2

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So you are making the claim that God and Satan both think we are deserving of death

Really. Nonsense.
Hello Nightmares, between the two of them, God is the one who tells us the truth, that "the person who sins will die". Satan does not.

Here, for instance, are the opening Biblical examples of each (God speaking in Genesis 2 and Satan speaking in Genesis 3 below, just to be clear).


Genesis 2
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it ~you will surely die.”~
Genesis 3
1 The serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ ”
4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will ~not~ die!"

It's always possible that I've missed something, missed what you're talking about, so please, show us where Satan contradicts what He says in v4 above later on in the Bible, IOW, where Satan either tells us or insinuates that, the person who sins will die.

Thanks!

--David
 

St_Worm2

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So you are making the claim that God and Satan both think we are deserving of death

Really. Nonsense.
So, you are still refusing to answer the questions that I asked you. Why? I've answered your questions and addressed the points that you've made, please return the favor.

Here again are the questions that I've asked you, but that you've failed to answer.


1. You said that, as a Christian, you are "sharing the Good News", so I asked you what that is, what the "Good News" is. So, what is it?
2. I asked you the title question, "Why did Jesus have to suffer and die". So, why did He?
3. I also asked you what Jesus' coming here to suffer and die had to do with the Good News (if anything). So, is there a connection there or not, and if so, what is it?

That's it.

I'd appreciate finally knowing your answers to the above questions/knowing what you think and why, that is. No worries though, if you will not answer them this time around, I will not ask you again.

BTW, if you feel that three questions are simply too many to answer for some reason, then please, just answer question #2 above, something that you should have already done anyway (since it is the topic of this thread).

Thanks!

--David
 
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Divide

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And who would want to be a man anyway. Same old boring stuff and Glory Days that pass you by in the wink of a young girls eye

It sounds like you have given up on the world...all of it except young girls. You want your share! Sorry you're lonely for a girl but there are bigger fish to fry than girls.
 
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Divide

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It has already been pointed out to you that your approach of responding to questions with "Are you wiser than God" is rude and leads to shutting down discussion

WHo pointed it out? I havent seen it. That man contributes more with thought provoking questions than you do with whining diatribe, lol.
 
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Divide

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You said no cell phone questions because they disprove your assertion that every single subject is covered in the Bible

And who would want to be a man anyway. Same old boring stuff and Glory Days that pass you by in the wink of a young girls eye

Why do you complain so much? You sound llike that you know sinning is wrong but are mad about that because it has a consequence and you're holding out for a girl.

What does it profit a man if he gins the whole world but loses his soul?
 
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oikonomia

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I am not interested in your insults
Are you writing to me?
What insult?

You bristle at a good question and evade it by saying you've been insulted ?
I will except "I don't know why I am here" as a perfectly legitimate answer by the way.
 
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Divide

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Why are you here?
Why do you exist?

Oh! Oh! (Raises hhand...)

I know this one and the one question you forgot. Maybe you didn't forget, it comes after he answers these two.

Good questions! Very simple too!
 
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All Becomes New

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It was necessary for Christ to shed His blood since it was foretold from eternity past that it was necessary.

"Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus—the great Shepherd of the sheep—through the blood of the everlasting covenant, equip you with everything good to do his will, working in us what is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:20–21)

Let's investigate. Why is blood necessary?

Because life is in the blood. It's the only thing that is technically ours even this too belongs to God. Blood is a substance that is part of our body. We can produce more of it. We would have to pay God with our blood for the sin of not worshipping Him perfectly here on earth. If we cannot pay the full sum of the wages of our sin with blood (which we can't) that is why when we die we are eternally punished if we were not found in Christ at the point of our death (or when Christ returns to the earth). So blood is a currency we pay with. And if we can't pay the full price (and we can't) then either a substitute must be given (Christ's perfect blood) our we would suffer eternal punishment.
 
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nightmares

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Old story theme: The demand for a salvation plan- i.e. a required sacrifice or payment (atonement, punishment) to appease some great threat or threatening reality, whether a religious God or vengeful Gaia, angry planet, upset Mother Earth, punitive Universe, or karma.

New story alternative: The fundamental nature of God as unconditional love means “absolutely no conditions. None.” That means there is no demand for ultimate payment, sacrifice, or conditions to fulfil. The only “salvation” that we need to engage is the ongoing and gradual struggle to make life better in this world.

Insert: The reality of God as “no conditions Love” requires that we make all the logical conclusions that arise from such a stunning new theology. Again, a critically important one is that such a divine reality- an authentically unconditional God- will not demand any conditions of payment or sacrifice. Jesus himself had argued this in his Matthew 5 and Luke 6 statements where he taught that an authentic universal love will not just love those who love in return (i.e. family, friends, or fellow tribe members). But unconditional love will also love those who do not love in return. Unconditional love will also give to all and not demand any return payment. Unconditional love does good to everyone without expecting a similar response, without expecting any payback (i.e. sacrifice). This is how Jesus further defined a God that “loved enemies”.

Jesus rejected the principle of debt payment as a fundamental requirement of authentic love (“give/love expecting nothing in return”). Debt payment, or more generally the righting of wrongs, had been the basis of atonement thinking from the beginning. This was based on the belief that God, as holy, must punish all wrongs properly and fully, and must rectify all wrongs by demanding payment of some sort. God cannot just forgive, accept, and love without first making all wrongs right. This was necessary to restore divine honor. God could not just freely forgive, accept, and love as we are expected to do (e.g. authentic love “keeps no record of wrongs” for future some making right).

This makes the atonement love of the religious God, based on prerequisite payment/punishment, something lesser than the best of human love. We are expected to just forgive, accept, and love without demanding prerequisite conditions (again- give without expecting payment in return, love without expecting love in return). Parents, spouses, and friends have all learned that this no conditions love is the best and highest form of love for daily relationships.

Jesus similarly argued that divine love does not require the payment of debt, or more generally the righting of wrongs, before forgiving, accepting, and loving. And his God embraced this ‘no payment’ love. No conditions love meant “no conditions” at all. Note this element in his Prodigal story where the father does not demand a sacrifice, restitution, or repayment before forgiving, accepting and loving the wayward son.

I reject, as Jesus appears to have done, the theology that God as ultimate Goodness and Love is held to a lesser standard of love that we are held to. That God can demand conditions before forgiving, accepting, and loving, while we are told that authentic love must keep no record of wrongs. It just forgives, accepts, and loves without condition.

Unfortunately, Paul rejected this new theology of Jesus and retreated back to traditional threat theology- i.e. a punitive God that demanded full payment for sin before forgiving anyone. We inherited Paul’s version of Christianity.

And of course, in this life people should learn to be responsible for their behavior, to make amends for wrongs done, and to pay their debts. That is all part of normal human development and growth. This is never in question, but it is not the basis of theology and authentic love. Our love, just like God’s love, is not to be conditional on anything done or not done by others.
 
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All Becomes New

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Old story theme: The demand for a salvation plan- i.e. a required sacrifice or payment (atonement, punishment) to appease some great threat or threatening reality, whether a religious God or vengeful Gaia, angry planet, upset Mother Earth, punitive Universe, or karma.

New story alternative: The fundamental nature of God as unconditional love means “absolutely no conditions. None.” That means there is no demand for ultimate payment, sacrifice, or conditions to fulfil. The only “salvation” that we need to engage is the ongoing and gradual struggle to make life better in this world.

Insert: The reality of God as “no conditions Love” requires that we make all the logical conclusions that arise from such a stunning new theology. Again, a critically important one is that such a divine reality- an authentically unconditional God- will not demand any conditions of payment or sacrifice. Jesus himself had argued this in his Matthew 5 and Luke 6 statements where he taught that an authentic universal love will not just love those who love in return (i.e. family, friends, or fellow tribe members). But unconditional love will also love those who do not love in return. Unconditional love will also give to all and not demand any return payment. Unconditional love does good to everyone without expecting a similar response, without expecting any payback (i.e. sacrifice). This is how Jesus further defined a God that “loved enemies”.

Jesus rejected the principle of debt payment as a fundamental requirement of authentic love (“give/love expecting nothing in return”). Debt payment, or more generally the righting of wrongs, had been the basis of atonement thinking from the beginning. This was based on the belief that God, as holy, must punish all wrongs properly and fully, and must rectify all wrongs by demanding payment of some sort. God cannot just forgive, accept, and love without first making all wrongs right. This was necessary to restore divine honor. God could not just freely forgive, accept, and love as we are expected to do (e.g. authentic love “keeps no record of wrongs” for future some making right).

This makes the atonement love of the religious God, based on prerequisite payment/punishment, something lesser than the best of human love. We are expected to just forgive, accept, and love without demanding prerequisite conditions (again- give without expecting payment in return, love without expecting love in return). Parents, spouses, and friends have all learned that this no conditions love is the best and highest form of love for daily relationships.

Jesus similarly argued that divine love does not require the payment of debt, or more generally the righting of wrongs, before forgiving, accepting, and loving. And his God embraced this ‘no payment’ love. No conditions love meant “no conditions” at all. Note this element in his Prodigal story where the father does not demand a sacrifice, restitution, or repayment before forgiving, accepting and loving the wayward son.

I reject, as Jesus appears to have done, the theology that God as ultimate Goodness and Love is held to a lesser standard of love that we are held to. That God can demand conditions before forgiving, accepting, and loving, while we are told that authentic love must keep no record of wrongs. It just forgives, accepts, and loves without condition.

Unfortunately, Paul rejected this new theology of Jesus and retreated back to traditional threat theology- i.e. a punitive God that demanded full payment for sin before forgiving anyone. We inherited Paul’s version of Christianity.

And of course, in this life people should learn to be responsible for their behavior, to make amends for wrongs done, and to pay their debts. That is all part of normal human development and growth. This is never in question, but it is not the basis of theology and authentic love. Our love, just like God’s love, is not to be conditional on anything done or not done by others.

So why did Christ have to be born, suffer the sins of the world, become the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, die, resurrect, reign in heaven, and then come back for His bride if God could just wave a magic wand and forgive all our sins?

You leave us with the reality that Christ's death was unnecessary. If that is so, then why would God even allow His Son to die a terribly painful and shameful death? Matter of fact, why did Christ promise that we will suffer in this life for following Him? Why is there any suffering at all? What's the point of Leviticus?

You have answered zero questions and added a whole bunch of them. And if you reject Paul, do you know what he says to you?

"Anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that what I write to you is the Lord’s command. If anyone ignores this, he will be ignored. So then, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything is to be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:37–40)

Not to mention Luke who wrote of Jesus confirms the testimony of Apostle Paul. So if you reject Paul, you have to reject the book of Acts as well. And if you reject the book of Acts, you have to reject the book of Luke as well. And Peter said that Paul's writings were scripture, so you would have to reject Peter as well. And Jesus had special favor on Apostle Peter, so you would have to reject Christ as well. So what are you left with? Your new version of theology that you might as well throw out the whole Bible and have your own New Age religious system. In fact, you don't even need God for that. So you are left with being vaguely nice to people.
 
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oikonomia

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Oh! Oh! (Raises hhand...)

I know this one and the one question you forgot. Maybe you didn't forget, it comes after he answers these two.

Good questions! Very simple too!

No one said the questions were simple.
Since the nightmare fired off many tough questions,
let nightmare take a turn under the microscope.

Not fair?
I think it is perfectly fair to not only dish out but also take some similar dishing.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
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