Why did Jesus have to come

[Jonathan95]

Hi,

I have a test in my religious studies in high school, and I need to tell what Jesus mission was.

Of course I know he came to bring salvation. However, how should I explain precisely why?

I know he had to come partly because the old system of sacrifice and rituals were insufficient (at least in a sense).

People in OT could be righteous, because Jesus preached to righteous people in Hades after his death and he opened the way to heaven for them.

There were a part of hades called "Abraham's bosom", but also a bad side like for the rich man in Luke 16.

However, people like Enoch and Elijah, did they go to heaven?

How am I to explain why people couldn't be "fully saved" (they could end up in Abraham's bosom), but most (if Enoch and Elijah are an exception) couldn't enter heaven until Jesus came.

 

[Bro in Christ]

question how does one get righteous ? is it by good works... Matt 7:21-23, 2 cor 11:13-15, Titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9,

romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

what did Christ do for us.... 1 cor 15:2-4
but OT had different object of faith than us.... depending on there promise from Him

 

[Bro in Christ]

1 cor 15:42-51 reason for his coming

 

[Bro in Christ]

However, people like Enoch and Elijah, did they go to heaven?


book of faith ....
enoch in heb 11:5 is mentioned as other OT

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn{Church saints}, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect {Pre law saints}


{Law saints} promised the earth!

 

[Bro in Christ]

Abrams bosom was moved to the third heaven upon his work on the cross was done and those three days that his body was dead JC who was working for those three days
26 different works that one bible study found in scripture ... could be more ! eph 2:14-18 is one

 

[sdowney717]

Various reasons, but one stands out, uniting the family of God both on earth and heaven, there shall be ONE flock and one shepherd. Jesus gathers the scattered children of God.

Ephesians 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

The mystery of His will.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Also study Heb 1 and 2 about 'the age to come of which we speak' which is the coming age of the Resurrection - Regeneration not yet happened, and the children that God gave to Jesus who are His family.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

why? because God promised a messiah in the OT, because of man's sinfulness and complete lack of righteousness. Christ "fulfilled" the law, He fulfilled all righteousness via substitution for His people.

 

[Jonathan95]

why? because God promised a messiah in the OT, because of man's sinfulness and complete lack of righteousness. Christ "fulfilled" the law, He fulfilled all righteousness via substitution for His people.

Lack of righteousness? You believe one couldn't be justified in the OT? Search for 'justification' and 'righteous(ness)', (or 'just', depending on translation) and see how many results you get. There are people in OT being spoken of as 'righteous' / 'just'.

I forgot to mention. One reason he came was to open up salvation for the gentiles as well, by grace through faith.

Yes, God promised a Messiah.

Man's sinfulness? I agree, that's why they had the old system of sacrifices and rituals.

However, could you further explain what you mean.


Thank you for your replies

 

[heymikey80]

Hi,

I have a test in my religious studies in high school, and I need to tell what Jesus mission was.

Of course I know he came to bring salvation. However, how should I explain precisely why?

I know he had to come partly because the old system of sacrifice and rituals were insufficient (at least in a sense).

People in OT could be righteous, because Jesus preached to righteous people in Hades after his death and he opened the way to heaven for them.

There were a part of hades called "Abraham's bosom", but also a bad side like for the rich man in Luke 16.

However, people like Enoch and Elijah, did they go to heaven?

How am I to explain why people couldn't be "fully saved" (they could end up in Abraham's bosom), but most (if Enoch and Elijah are an exception) couldn't enter heaven until Jesus came.

From Jesus' view, He had no obligation to incarnate.

It was entirely Jesus unmerited favor that motivated Him.

He saw the need of fallen people.

His sacrifice would restore those He loved to Him.

So He wanted fellowship with His beloved people. Thatd seem to be why.

 

[heymikey80]

Lack of righteousness? You believe one couldn't be justified in the OT? Search for 'justification' and 'righteous(ness)', (or 'just', depending on translation) and see how many results you get. There are people in OT being spoken of as 'righteous' / 'just'.

I forgot to mention. One reason he came was to open up salvation for the gentiles as well, by grace through faith.

Yes, God promised a Messiah.

Man's sinfulness? I agree, that's why they had the old system of sacrifices and rituals.

However, could you further explain what you mean

.so Rom 2-3 -- did anyone get tobe righteous based on the law?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Lack of righteousness? You believe one couldn't be justified in the OT? Search for 'justification' and 'righteous(ness)', (or 'just', depending on translation) and see how many results you get. There are people in OT being spoken of as 'righteous' / 'just'.

Lack of righteousness is the default position of man after the fall (outside of the Bible we can trace this back to ECF Saint Augustine of Hippo), the following from Romans 3 is a quotation from the Psalms...

Romans 3
10 “None is righteous,
no, not one;
11 ​​​​​​​​no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 ​​​​​​​​All have turned aside;
together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” (ESV)

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight (ESV)

What do you make of the following in light of what I said?

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him (ESV)

One could be justified during OT times, the same as one is justified in NT times, by faith (apart from works), in one OT passage we read:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Justification by faith is in the OT, and should be an evidence of the progressive nature of salvation in Scripture, it should help us to understand that salvation in the NT is not plan B, and that there is an organic unity between the OT and NT, and that the OT should not be treated as irrelevant, or to be trumped and ruled out. People like to cherry pick from the OT, like the ten commandments, the psalms and proverbs, but when comes time to explain the difficult parts...the answers have an antinomian ring.

I forgot to mention. One reason he came was to open up salvation for the gentiles as well, by grace through faith.

Yes, God promised a Messiah.

Man's sinfulness? I agree, that's why they had the old system of sacrifices and rituals.

However, could you further explain what you mean.

The best answer would be to quote Christ himself, because He gave us an answer...

Matt 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Matt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

The Apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I recommend doing a word search in the NT with the word "fulfill" and see how many instances in the gospels events occurred to fulfill what was written by the prophets in the OT. The Son of God becoming flesh and His purpose was all part of the eternal Covenant of Redemption, the plan of salvation before the foundation of the world.

If man could have attained a righteousness apart from Chirst, he would have done so, and there would not have have been a plan of salvation before the foundation of the world.

 

[Jonathan95]

Lack of righteousness is the default position of man after the fall (outside of the Bible we can trace this back to ECF Saint Augustine of Hippo), the following from Romans 3 is a quotation from the Psalms...

Romans 3
10 “None is righteous,
no, not one;
11 ​​​​​​​​no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 ​​​​​​​​All have turned aside;
together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.” (ESV)

If you mean that even born-again people aren't righteous, I don't agree. It has to be read within its context and shouldn't be interpreted literally. There are certainly people that do good for example, otherwise there wouldn't be charities.

None is righteous doesn't mean literally none, but none among a certain group of people, because Psalm 14-15, makes a contrast between the evildoers and the righteous. Paul quoted from Psalm 14.

The best answer would be to quote Christ himself, because He gave us an answer...

Matt 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Matt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Yes, the first verse speaks of redemption.

If man could have attained a righteousness apart from Chirst, he would have done so, and there would not have have been a plan of salvation before the foundation of the world.

Do you believe being justified (which you said one could in OT times) isn't the same as attaining a righteousness?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If you mean that even born-again people aren't righteous, I don't agree. It has to be read within its context and shouldn't be interpreted literally. There are certainly people that do good for example, otherwise there wouldn't be charities.

Allow me to spell it out, I believe in imputed righteousness, the righteousness of Christ imputed to the born again believer.

It seems you might be confusing two issues, the first part you're referring to the saved, the second part you're referring to the non-saved and "common grace". Obviously non-saved can do what is "good" in the eyes of man, but non of their "good works" please God (Heb 11:6).

None is righteous doesn't mean literally none, but none among a certain group of people, because Psalm 14-15, makes a contrast between the evildoers and the righteous. Paul quoted from Psalm 14.

I didn't argue that it did, and keep that same consistency when reading the word "all" in Scripture or "whole". The Lord has always had a people, and their righteousness has never been their own, it has always been a gracious gift, and I do not recall the Lord asking for anyone's permission either.

Do you believe being justified (which you said one could in OT times) isn't the same as attaining a righteousness?

I understand the argument you're preparing to try and catch me in a situation where I suggest a righteousness apart from Christ, but you see I started with the notion of progressive unveiling of salvation, and I do believe that the atonement of Christ was not only for the then present and future believers, but also for believers in the past. Christ died for Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Yes, I believe there is a difference between being declared righteous, as in a status, and actually attaining a righteousness.

 

[Bro in Christ]

all men are unrighteous .... and the only good work that believers do is God working threw them .... any works that are done by an imputed righteous believer in his flesh will be burned up.

 

[bling]

Hi,

I have a test in my religious studies in high school, and I need to tell what Jesus mission was.

Of course I know he came to bring salvation. However, how should I explain precisely why?

I know he had to come partly because the old system of sacrifice and rituals were insufficient (at least in a sense).

People in OT could be righteous, because Jesus preached to righteous people in Hades after his death and he opened the way to heaven for them.

There were a part of hades called "Abraham's bosom", but also a bad side like for the rich man in Luke 16.

However, people like Enoch and Elijah, did they go to heaven?

How am I to explain why people couldn't be "fully saved" (they could end up in Abraham's bosom), but most (if Enoch and Elijah are an exception) couldn't enter heaven until Jesus came.

Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, since you have been getting a steady diet of reformism and Calvinism.

You ask a lot of questions and my comments might only generate more questions, but let me at least try to address your first question: “Why did Jesus have to come?”

Like everything else Deity does it is motivated by unselfish unconditional Love. Christ is doing the unselfishly for the sake of willing individuals, those that are just willing to accept His help.

Some would have you believe: “Christ came to resolve a “problem” God was having with sin”, but God does not have a problem. God can easily forgive any and all sins. The problem is man’s problem, since man has an objective to fulfill. Again, most people do not understand man’s objective, so they have a hard time understanding why Christ had to come.

Like everything else Deity has done and will do, Christ coming is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. Christ does show/teaches us as best as can be done: “What God the Father is really like.” Christ shows, tells and teaches us what man can become and what deity dwelling unquenched inside a human form can do while here on earth.

Christ going to the cross is the greatest expression of Love for undeserving man that could ever be displayed. Also at this same time God the Father in heaven is showing an equal Love through empathizing with Christ in his suffering and allow Christ to go through this torture, humiliation and murder. Again this was all done for the benefit of “willing” individuals that believe/trust what God and Jesus did for them and because of them.

 

[Jonathan95]

The Lord has always had a people, and their righteousness has never been their own, it has always been a gracious gift, and I do not recall the Lord asking for anyone's permission either.

Yes, justification is a gift.

I understand the argument you're preparing to try and catch me in a situation where I suggest a righteousness apart from Christ, but you see I started with the notion of progressive unveiling of salvation, and I do believe that the atonement of Christ was not only for the then present and future believers, but also for believers in the past. Christ died for Abraham, Moses, David, etc. Yes, I believe there is a difference between being declared righteous, as in a status, and actually attaining a righteousness.

No, I tried to understand if you meant one remains unrighteous, but is declared righteous anyways, or that one is infused with righteousness and really becomes righteous, which catholics believe for example, and which I believe in.

Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, since you have been getting a steady diet of reformism and Calvinism.

You ask a lot of questions and my comments might only generate more questions, but let me at least try to address your first question: “Why did Jesus have to come?”

Like everything else Deity does it is motivated by unselfish unconditional Love. Christ is doing the unselfishly for the sake of willing individuals, those that are just willing to accept His help.

Some would have you believe: “Christ came to resolve a “problem” God was having with sin”, but God does not have a problem. God can easily forgive any and all sins. The problem is man’s problem, since man has an objective to fulfill. Again, most people do not understand man’s objective, so they have a hard time understanding why Christ had to come.

Like everything else Deity has done and will do, Christ coming is to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. Christ does show/teaches us as best as can be done: “What God the Father is really like.” Christ shows, tells and teaches us what man can become and what deity dwelling unquenched inside a human form can do while here on earth.

Christ going to the cross is the greatest expression of Love for undeserving man that could ever be displayed. Also at this same time God the Father in heaven is showing an equal Love through empathizing with Christ in his suffering and allow Christ to go through this torture, humiliation and murder. Again this was all done for the benefit of “willing” individuals that believe/trust what God and Jesus did for them and because of them.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[heymikey80]

Yes, justification is a gift.

No, I tried to understand if you meant one remains unrighteous, but is declared righteous anyways, or that one is infused with righteousness and really becomes righteous, which catholics believe for example, and which I believe in.

If we are righteous it leaves me wondering why John said we're lying to ourselves saying we have no sin 1Jn 1:8. We all look forward to that Day when we will be remade in righteousness. But infusion of grace in a sinner (which we both accept) does not destroy the sin we have already committed. It secures us against the sin God intends to prevent in our lives. That's clearly not all sin. So on Rom 3:9-19's terms, we are not righteous. It's just a fact.

I've just seen too much theological meandering to try to explain the presence of sin in the righteous. On God's terms we are not righteous by what we do. Not before Christ. Not now.

(Sorry if Ive accidentally deleted pieces of this, my browser gets cursor repositioned to wierd places when editing)

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus came to proclaim the Kingdom of God in its fullness and to destroy the power of Satan in this world. Too often western Christians focus on where you go when you die, and that is not really what Jesus was addressing - it's a medieval development in the Western Church which lead directly to Luther and the Reformation... but it's only part of the Gospel and potentially a distortion.

People in the Old Testament had a righteousness by faith in God. St. Paul is basically saying in this new dispensation, we have the same righteousness through faith in Christ. They are not two different kinds of righteousness, but the same kind of righteousness... faith in God's covenantal promises.

 

[Skala]

There are certainly people that do good for example, otherwise there wouldn't be charities.

But the Bible clearly says our own inherent righteousness is as good as filthy rags in God's sight.

So they can walk all the little old ladies across the street they want - they are still as gross as filthy rags in the thrice Holy God's sight.

 

[Jonathan95]

If we are righteous it leaves me wondering why John said we're lying to ourselves saying we have no sin 1Jn 1:8. We all look forward to that Day when we will be remade in righteousness. But infusion of grace in a sinner (which we both accept) does not destroy the sin we have already committed. It secures us against the sin God intends to prevent in our lives. That's clearly not all sin. So on Rom 3:9-19's terms, we are not righteous. It's just a fact.

I've just seen too much theological meandering to try to explain the presence of sin in the righteous. On God's terms we are not righteous by what we do. Not before Christ. Not now.

(Sorry if Ive accidentally deleted pieces of this, my browser gets cursor repositioned to wierd places when editing)

1 John 1:8 isn't to be interpreted to mean that we always are in sin. That'd be a contradiction, since then we'd always be separated from God, since the wages of sin is death.

It has to be read in context. Because John also says:

"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7 ESV)

So this means one can actually be righteous.

But the Bible clearly says our own inherent righteousness is as good as filthy rags in God's sight.

So they can walk all the little old ladies across the street they want - they are still as gross as filthy rags in the thrice Holy God's sight.

I didn't say we could be righteous on our own.

Also, you don't think that just because these works cannot justify them, that God hates the good works they do?