Why Did Jesus Give Us The Great Commission?

[DMagoh]

If everyone is predestined, then The Great Commission makes no sense. It doesnt matter whether we go ye therefore or not.

If Bob has been predestined for heaven, it really doesnt matter whether I witness to him or not - He's Going! If he has been predestined to hell, it doesnt matter whether I witness to him or not - He's Going!

So why did Jesus give us The Great Commission?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

If everyone is predestined, then The Great Commission makes no sense. It doesnt matter whether we go ye therefore or not.

With all due respect, it doesn't make sense to you because you don't really understand the Reformed doctrine of predestination. We are discussing this very topic in another thread...

http://www.christianforums.com/t4478471-why-do-calvinists.html

[OT...could somebody please tell me how to make the nifty links that simply say 'here' or something unobtrusive like that instead of the page-and-a-half URLs?]

...come and join us!!

If Bob has been predestined for heaven, it really doesnt matter whether I witness to him or not - He's Going! If he has been predestined to hell, it doesnt matter whether I witness to him or not - He's Going!

Bob's salvation wasn't the only thing God ordained...He also ordained somebody to tell Bob the Gospel. We don't know if that's you or me, so we both need to be as responsible as we can with sharing the message with everyone we can. It does matter that Bob is witnessed to.

So why did Jesus give us The Great Commission?

Because that's the way He chose to work salvation. The means, or method, to gather the elect is through the preaching of the Word.

 

[DMagoh]

Bob's salvation wasn't the only thing God ordained...He also ordained somebody to tell Bob the Gospel. We don't know if that's you or me, so we both need to be as responsible as we can with sharing the message with everyone we can. It does matter that Bob is witnessed to...

That's what I dont get.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...and if someone doesnt witness to them they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

If that's true...if they aren't going to heaven whether I witness to them or not, then they really werent predestined to go to heaven were they?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

That's what I dont get.

C'mon over to the other thread I posted a link to. We're already covering this. Start at about page 38 or 40, though. The discussion was pretty heated before then, but it's cooled down and become a rational discussion since then.

Are you saying that even if someone is "chosen" or one of the "elect", they will only accept Christ if someone witnesses to them...

Yes.

...and if someone doesnt witness to them they wont go to heaven, even if they are one of the "elect"?

No, I'm not saying that, because there is not a chance of this happening. If the person is elect, someone will share the Gospel with that person. God guarantees it...and that's a pretty strong guarantee, don't you think?

 

[Beoga]

If God foreknows who will choose Him, then it really doesn't matter who witnesses because they will choose to believe no matter what, unless you want to deny the infallibility of God's omniscience. Thus the Great Commission is pointless.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

If God foreknows who will choose Him, then it really doesn't matter who witnesses because they will choose to believe no matter what, unless you want to deny the infallibility of God's omniscience. Thus the Great Commission is pointless.

Did you read any of my posts here? Stop acting like a troll.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In Matthew 28, the great commission that we are to be “making disciples”. I always believed that the Holy Spirit converts and Christians disciple which means giving up has to do "self" while cost of discipleship has to do with discipling "others". Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ. Personal discipleship takes months while Church discipleship takes years. God commanded us to disciple but there are those whose mission is to "save" rather than disciple. God knew dscipling is the best way to go. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples

One think I like about Reformed churches, they focus on discipleship as Christ commanded.

 

[Beoga]

Did you read any of my posts here? Stop acting like a troll.

I am sorry GD, I should have added some sort of smiley face. I deny everything that I said in my previous post. I posted that to show that those who use that argument against God's election of certain individuals for salvation still have the same question to answer.
I affirm the Westminster Standards and the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I am sorry GD, I should have added some sort of smiley face. I deny everything that I said in my previous post. I posted that to show that those who use that argument against God's election of certain individuals for salvation still have the same question to answer.
I affirm the Westminster Standards and the Doctrines of Grace.

Oops...sorry 'bout that. I'll reel my claws back in.

 

[DMagoh]

In Matthew 28, the great commission that we are to be “making disciples”. I always believed that the Holy Spirit converts and Christians disciple which means giving up has to do "self" while cost of discipleship has to do with discipling "others". Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ. Personal discipleship takes months while Church discipleship takes years. God commanded us to disciple but there are those whose mission is to "save" rather than disciple. God knew dscipling is the best way to go. Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples

One think I like about Reformed churches, they focus on discipleship as Christ commanded.

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a disciple is a "follower". Jesus did not say therefore go and disciple (a verb), He said therefore go and make disciples (i.e., followers), a noun. We are to make more followers, more Christians.

I will say that Reformed churches are great on discipling. They are just lax on evangelizing and making disciples. On the other hand, "non-reformed" churches are great on evangelizing, but are not too good on discipling after conversion. I think we both need to find a balance. We both agree on how to be saved, and we need to focus on getting people saved and then discipling them to grow as Christians.

 

[JimfromOhio]

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a disciple is a "follower". Jesus did not say therefore go and disciple (a verb), He said therefore go and make disciples (i.e., followers), a noun. We are to make more followers, more Christians.

I will say that Reformed churches are great on discipling. They are just lax on evangelizing and making disciples. On the other hand, "non-reformed" churches are great on evangelizing, but are not too good on discipling after conversion. I think we both need to find a balance. We both agree on how to be saved, and we need to focus on getting people saved and then discipling them to grow as Christians.

It is your opinion about Reformed Churches lax evangelism. Remember a book called "Evangelism Explosion"? The founder of the Evangelism Explosion Program is a Reformed Preacher and a Calvinist. It is a book intended to be the textbook for the Evangelism Explosion (EE) ministry's courses on how to witness and how to train others to witness.

 

[DMagoh]

It is your opinion about Reformed Churches lax evangelism...

I was at a Calvinistic church this Wednesday night at a Bible Study. The pastor said, "the reason I dont worry about the type of music we have in church or whether the pews are comfortable or not is because the church is meeting - if a lost person happens to show up, it's okay with us, but we dont strive to attract lost people....

That sounds very un-evangelistic to me.

 

[heymikey80]

I was at a Calvinistic church this Wednesday night at a Bible Study. The pastor said, "the reason I dont worry about the type of music we have in church or whether the pews are comfortable or not is because the church is meeting - if a lost person happens to show up, it's okay with us, but we dont strive to attract lost people....

That sounds very un-evangelistic to me.

True, there are different groups doing different things within Calvinistic churches. But then there are groups of fundamental churches saying largely the same sorts of things; churches of all theological stripes and spots who won't budge on the type of music or even the color of the carpet to attract the lost.

There are significant points to not changing the specific elements or "parts" of worship, too.

If I knew his exact words and in what context, and his exact affiliation with what denomination, I could probably say more -- and more about whether I think his position lands within Calvinism. That said there are a number of ingrown denominations and churches, and myriad different positions on worship formats. Should I find a high-church Lutheran service to compare with? How about an Episcopal church? Or an ingrown Baptist church? Each takes on a particular character that doesn't readily appeal to the unchurched.

You do find in Paul a sensitivity to unbelievers in assembly in 1 Cor 14. However, that sensitivity does not extend to making the unbeliever comfortable -- I don't think falling on your face before the Lord is exactly a comfortable response. But I do think there's far more to be said for the "heartstrings" of 1 Cor 13 being on display throughout the church. That seems a strong attraction for many people, lost or found. I'm not sure if it could be termed "comfortable" even then.

And finally there is forbearance with the needs of new believers. The stronger in the faith should be accepting things that aren't necessarily conducive to their worship, but to the worship and encouragement of the weak. (Rom 14 comes to mind.)

But again, those are my points of view on highly varied practices within Calvinistic churches.

 

[DMagoh]

...If I knew his exact words and in what context, and his exact affiliation with what denomination, I could probably say more -- and more about whether I think his position lands within Calvinism. That said there are a number of ingrown denominations and churches, and myriad different positions on worship formats. Should I find a high-church Lutheran service to compare with? How about an Episcopal church? Or an ingrown Baptist church? Each takes on a particular character that doesn't readily appeal to the unchurched...

Hey heymikey80,

The pastor's name was Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC. You may have hear of him. If you google him you will find many hits. He is very much a Calvinist, and has tried to steer the Southern Baptist Convention in this direction. He was almost elected one of the VPs of the conention in 2006. He is the author of the 9Marks of a healthy church program.

I will say this, Mark Dever is a very smart man and I enjoyed his Bible Study. I just wish he didnt seem so indifferent as to whether lost people attended his church or not.

 

[bradfordl]

I will say that Reformed churches are great on discipling. They are just lax on evangelizing and making disciples.

Assertion without evidence.

So why did Jesus give us The Great Commission?

To give you something to do while waiting around for heaven.

Brad

 

[DMagoh]

Assertion without evidence.
Brad

As I posted earlier...

I was at a Calvinistic church this Wednesday night at a Bible Study. The pastor said, "the reason I dont worry about the type of music we have in church or whether the pews are comfortable or not is because the church is meeting - if a lost person happens to show up, it's okay with us, but we dont strive to attract lost people....

That sounds very un-evangelistic to me.

 

[bradfordl]

As I posted earlier...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
I was at a Calvinistic church this Wednesday night at a Bible Study. The pastor said, "the reason I dont worry about the type of music we have in church or whether the pews are comfortable or not is because the church is meeting - if a lost person happens to show up, it's okay with us, but we dont strive to attract lost people....

That sounds very un-evangelistic to me.

Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. One example does not prove your point.

 

[DMagoh]

Fallacy of Hasty Generalization. One example does not prove your point.

How about 2 more examples. Two of your Calvinistic brothers responded to a different question of mine in a different thread. The question was basically, "do you feel bad for the ones that are not chosen, do you feel any guilt that you were chosen and they werent when neither deserves heaven? Their response was telling. The first response was:


Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHall86
What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over. If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.


And the second response was:



Quote:
Originally Posted by BereanTodd
No, it doesn't bother me in the least little bit...I am just thankful that He loved and chose me. And I will spend the rest of my life serving Him in return.



I just dont see any Christian compassion from these responses. They all seem to be saying, "Thank God I was chosen, and to hell (literally) with anyone else."

Now if those responses dont sound like that to you, please explain them.

 

[bradfordl]

How about 2 more examples. Two of your Calvinistic brothers responded to a different question of mine in a different thread. The question was basically, "do you feel bad for the ones that are not chosen, do you feel any guilt that you were chosen and they werent when neither deserves heaven? Their response was telling. The first response was:


Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHall86
What is my reasoning to feel remorse over a situation I didnt choose, not have any control over. If you are eating a Steak, do you feel bad from someone who can only afford a salad? No, you are busy enjoying your steak.


And the second response was:



Quote:
Originally Posted by BereanTodd
No, it doesn't bother me in the least little bit...I am just thankful that He loved and chose me. And I will spend the rest of my life serving Him in return.



I just dont see any Christian compassion from these responses. They all seem to be saying, "Thank God I was chosen, and to hell (literally) with anyone else."

Now if those responses dont sound like that to you, please explain them.

Well, if you feel justified in condemning biblical theology because one Pastor and 2 individual internet posters made statements that don't fit your idea of Christian compassion, by all means help yourself. But as for me, I let all men be liars but God be true. And what you call calvinism is biblical theology, regardless of whether you like it, and regardless of what a few possibly errant individuals have to say. Do you mean to imply that in your Church I'm not gonna find any members who lack an adequate level of Christian compassion? I would bet that I could, even using your personal criteria.

Its been pointed out to you that Evangelism Explosion and World Harvest Missions both sprang from "calvinistic" Churches. I believe your assertion is founded in your lack of understanding of the biblical doctrine you attack. Go study. Perchance God will open your eyes and ears.

You still have committed the fallacy of hasty generalization. Show us real study and real evidence to support your premises before posting them. That way we won't get the impression you are a troll.

Brad

 

[JimfromOhio]

I was at a Calvinistic church this Wednesday night at a Bible Study. The pastor said, "the reason I dont worry about the type of music we have in church or whether the pews are comfortable or not is because the church is meeting - if a lost person happens to show up, it's okay with us, but we dont strive to attract lost people....

That sounds very un-evangelistic to me.

One church? Do you know there are some calvinist churches are bad as well as good ones like any other churches around the world. One church does not make a good conclusion of your theory.