The concept of predestination

[tonychanyt]

Isaiah 14:

24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.

Romans 8:

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Strong's 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.

HELPS Word-studies

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

G4309 occurs 6 times in the NT.

Acts 4:

27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

1 Corinthians 2:

7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed [G4309] before the ages for our glory.

How do you know who is predestined?

Only God knows.

How do you know if you are predestined?

The Paraclete will dwell in you.

Ephesians 1:

5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Predestination is related to God's sovereign will/plan over all people according to God's hidden wisdom. From my own personal experience, even years before I called myself a Christian, I believed that he was looking after me even though I didn't know him.

Now, does God predestine someone to hell?

I do not find that kind of wording in the Bible, that God predestines some to hell. However, we do have Jude 1:

4 Certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God.

2 Peter 2:

3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

The word for "condemnation" is G2917. It does not always refer to eternal condemnation.

There are two issues here: (1) predestine someone to (2) eternal death. The lexical evidence is not that strong when I consider both issues at the same time.

I find that Calvinism overloaded the concept of predestination by overgeneralizing some bible verses. When it comes to doctrines, it is better to stick closely to the wording in the Scripture.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Isaiah 14:


Romans 8:


Strong's 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.

HELPS Word-studies


G4309 occurs 6 times in the NT.

Acts 4:


1 Corinthians 2:


How do you know who is predestined?

Only God knows.

How do you know if you are predestined?

The Paraclete will dwell in you.

Ephesians 1:


Predestination is related to God's sovereign will/plan over all people according to God's hidden wisdom. From my own personal experience, even years before I called myself a Christian, I believed that he was looking after me even though I didn't know him.

Now, does God predestine someone to hell?

I do not find that kind of wording in the Bible, that God predestines some to hell. However, we do have Jude 1:


2 Peter 2:


The word for "condemnation" is G2917. It does not always refer to eternal condemnation.

There are two issues here: (1) predestine someone to (2) eternal death. The lexical evidence is not that strong when I consider both issues at the same time.

I find that Calvinism overloaded the concept of predestination by overgeneralizing some bible verses. When it comes to doctrines, it is better to stick closely to the wording in the Scripture.

Supposing you have predestination right, are you sure you got Calvinism right? My objection to the term, 'double predestination', is that people take it to imply that God intended the reprobate primarily (or even solely) for condemnation, but not only does the Bible not say that —logic does not demand that. Logic (short version) only says that if God created, everything that ends up happening was intended to happen —to include everything between the beginning and the end.

I don't see Calvinism teaching that God only intended their demise. And the Bible does indicate specifically, often and constantly, other uses for them, as well as general statements, such as in Romans 9:22, 23 and their context.

You will notice that the Bible is very specific about the predestination of the elect, saying that it is for this or that, without direct reference to the final end of the elect. The predestination of the reprobate is like that: their condemnation is a given, and not the main thrust of their existence. They are part of what it takes to produce the end of the elect.

 

[tonychanyt]

Supposing you have predestination right, are you sure you got Calvinism right?

I assert that some Calvinism doctrines are right and some have not been proved by FOL. Can you be more specific?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I assert that some Calvinism doctrines are right and some have not been proved by FOL. Can you be more specific?

For the moment, specifically concerning double predestination; but more generally, concerning anything you attempt to prove/disprove that is posited by Calvinism.

 

[Bones49]

I'm really interested in this subject at the moment, so I thought I would jump into your conversation, but I actually don't have any idea what you are trying to say?

Can you clearly state what you consider to be the biblical concept of predestination?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm really interested in this subject at the moment, so I thought I would jump into your conversation, but I actually don't have any idea what you are trying to say?

Can you clearly state what you consider to be the biblical concept of predestination?

Will our conversation on your thread, "Predestination", suffice, or is there something you want explained here? The biblical concept of predestination is huge.

But I will try to make a short, scriptural, statement here. God is not us, and not like us. By him, all things were made, including us. What things we are is caused by him directly, or by 'long chains of causation' descended from the beginning. Only God was at the beginning of anything. Only God can do NEW.

 

[childeye 2]

Isaiah 14:


Romans 8:


Strong's 4309: To foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand. From pro and horizo; to limit in advance, i.e. predetermine.

HELPS Word-studies


G4309 occurs 6 times in the NT.

Acts 4:


1 Corinthians 2:


How do you know who is predestined?

Only God knows.

How do you know if you are predestined?

The Paraclete will dwell in you.

Ephesians 1:


Predestination is related to God's sovereign will/plan over all people according to God's hidden wisdom. From my own personal experience, even years before I called myself a Christian, I believed that he was looking after me even though I didn't know him.

Now, does God predestine someone to hell?

I do not find that kind of wording in the Bible, that God predestines some to hell. However, we do have Jude 1:


2 Peter 2:


The word for "condemnation" is G2917. It does not always refer to eternal condemnation.

There are two issues here: (1) predestine someone to (2) eternal death. The lexical evidence is not that strong when I consider both issues at the same time.

I find that Calvinism overloaded the concept of predestination by overgeneralizing some bible verses. When it comes to doctrines, it is better to stick closely to the wording in the Scripture.

The terms suggest that there's no difference between the flesh of those that perish and those who are saved. That's what I take from the statement that we're all counted as sheep for the slaughter.

 

[tonychanyt]

I'm really interested in this subject at the moment, so I thought I would jump into your conversation, but I actually don't have any idea what you are trying to say?

Can you clearly state what you consider to be the biblical concept of predestination?

Good question. I don't think I have a clear definition of predestination. However, if you ask me a specific question using the word in context, I'll try to answer it

 

[tonychanyt]

The terms suggest that there's no difference between the flesh of those that perish and those who are saved.

What terms?

 

[childeye 2]

What terms?

Predestined and eternal Life/death. For example, a temporal existence would be predestined to come to an end and yet could serve an eternal purpose.

Other terms in scripture to consider would be "corruption" and "quickening", the first Adam and the second Adam.

 

[tonychanyt]

The terms predestined and eternal Life/death suggest that there's no difference between the flesh of those that perish and those who are saved.

How did you come to the above connection? Please show the logic step by step.

 

[childeye 2]

How did you come to the above connection? Please show the logic step by step.

I'm viewing predestination as the effect of God's Word, which is an expression of Himself, being spoken into the pre-requisite void.

As a matter of circumstantial order, it's illogical that the Creator can be conceived according to the imagery of the creature/creation, nor therefore can God be revealed and subsequently glorified according to the volition of any creature. Unlike the Eternal and with few exceptions, we live a brief temporal existence/experience wherein we come to comprehend the Eternal through loss of life. That is, being made flesh and blood we are corruptible and mortal, and this makes us no different from one another whether we are those who perish or those who are saved.

This infers that we exist as such for the purpose of glorifying God's Spirit, Whose Glory will be revealed according to God's plan to create children unto Himself out of dirt/earth. The logic proceeds that the Light that is the knowledge of God, can only be glorified/revealed by entering in the midst of what is darkness by comparison. It's the same sentiment being described when I say that the beauty of compassion is only experienced in seeing the ugliness of suffering, or that we cannot see the light from a flashlight under the midday sun, or that God's strength is made perfect in our weakness. Likewise, God will not be glorified according to the volition of the creature because, unlike the Eternal power, the creature by nature takes both wisdom and compassion for granted in some degree of vainglory. I think these scriptures describe the circumstance well:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: