Why did God make Gospel so confusing?

[BigV]

One emphasizes kingly descent (through Solomon) and is abbreviated (42 = 14x3 generations long), the other priestly prophetic descent (through Nathan) and is [more] complete (77 = 11x7 generations long)

Luke claims to have written an "orderly account" to clarify previous narratives, plausibly his is [more] accurate

And yet, both are through Joseph, Jesus' adoptive father! How can that be the case? Did Jesus have two adoptive fathers named Joseph?

 

[bling]

Well, you need to provide a context . Your son doesn't have to worry about his non-Christian friends frying in Hell for all eternity. He doesn't need to worry about himself going to Hell for all eternity either.

Here is a short video of Richard Dawkins "You are going to die, and that makes you one of the lucky ones" speech.

Besides, there is no better alternative to a Santa Claus. But that doesn't make Santa real.

Do you believe something came from nothing (not redefining nothing as something) or has something always existed?

If something always existed would it possible include energy, matter (or matter coming from energy) , space and time?

Would intelligence also be part of what has always existed?

If only energy, matter, time and space has always existed then these can produce intelligence, since you are an intelligent being. There would be no limit on intelligence with the help of computers so super intelligence would be achievable. Super intelligence would easily be able to produce intelligence since we with very limited intelligence can produce intelligence (depending on how you define intelligence).

The question than is how lucky do you feel you are? Do you feel humans are the very first intelligent beings produced from energy, space, time and matter or some previous super intelligence (God) had a hand in producing you (since that would be much more likely)?

If super intelligence came about, it happened a portion of an infinite length of time ago, but any portion of infinity is an infinite amount of time.

Let me ask you this:

If you miraculously knew the Christian God really existed, how would that change your life for the good? Would you go out share the good news of God’s existence or would you see that as bad news?

Are you happy now and would God’s existence increase your happiness?

 

[BigV]

Do you believe something came from nothing (not redefining nothing as something) or has something always existed?

I don't know how the Universe began. And I think it's an honest answer. It's better to be honest than to make things up, in m opinion.

As I understand Sean Carroll, our universe is just a small part of all there is.

Here is a list to a short video on youtube about this.

If something always existed would it possible include energy, matter (or matter coming from energy) , space and time?

Would intelligence also be part of what has always existed?

These are good questions to which I don't have the answers to. So, I don't know.

I think of these questions as trying to explain how Earth can be an oblong spheroid 300-400 years ago. You would have to know way to much and the explanation would require lots of scientific knowledge that was not commonly available and not easy to explain.

I'm not saying that I have that knowledge, only to coney the difficulty raised by such questions. I think the reason we don't usually question an oblong spheroid earth is because we see photos and images that help us understand the days/nights/seasons.

Flat Earthers have their opinions too, but they are the fringe group, which also shows the difficulty scientists face. No matter how well your explanation can explain the reality, not everyone will be convinced by it.

If only energy, matter, time and space has always existed then these can produce intelligence, since you are an intelligent being. There would be no limit on intelligence with the help of computers so super intelligence would be achievable. Super intelligence would easily be able to produce intelligence since we with very limited intelligence can produce intelligence (depending on how you define intelligence).

Perhaps you are right. Same thing can be said about God too. If he always existed, as Christians believe, then he can produce intelligence and there would be no limit to intelligence.....

The question than is how lucky do you feel you are? Do you feel humans are the very first intelligent beings produced from energy, space, time and matter or some previous super intelligence (God) had a hand in producing you (since that would be much more likely)?

This is a tough question. For sure, my birth was a natural one (i.e. I did not grow in a tube in some science lab, as far as I know) and yet, based on human biology we know that men produce far more sperm and women eggs that ultimately end up fertilized. What are the chances that that specific sperm inseminate an egg which created me would create me?

I think the scenario is virtually improbable, and yet, here I am, and here you are.

I think these 'what are the odds' questions are blown out of proportion by the religious. Think about it. I can go and have sex with a woman and produce a child. The odds of that child being born out of one of my sperm (out of millions sperm) would be highly improbable, and yet, we know unprotected sex frequently results in pregnancies leading to birth of children.

That pregnancy, which would be virtually guaranteed due to having unprotected sex can be made to look like a miracle if we start asking...what are the odds of this or that.

Further, I was born in the USSR. I'm now an American. What are the odds of that? What are the odds of my grandparents surviving WWII and giving birth to my parents? What are the odds of the particular couple coming together and having children vs other people they could have had sex with? The list goes on and on, and you can make any natural phenomenon into an incredibly unlikely miracle.

If super intelligence came about, it happened a portion of an infinite length of time ago, but any portion of infinity is an infinite amount of time.

Ok, but God is infinite and that doesn't stop him from doing this thing, no?

Let me ask you this:

If you miraculously knew the Christian God really existed, how would that change your life for the good? Would you go out share the good news of God’s existence or would you see that as bad news?

It's a very difficult question, because, as I mentioned in other thread, I come from a Christian tradition that interpreted Hell as being a literal place where the wicked, including all unbelievers, are tortured forever and ever and I was taught that God is love.

These ideas are contradictory. If there exists a loving God, then there cannot be Hell. And if there exists Hell, there can not be a loving God. So, if we found that God exists, it would be a curious development and I am not sure how I would feel about that. If it truly was a God with eternal Hell, then it would be a very terrible news. Even if this God decided to save me contrary to his principles and force me into his heaven, while I would appreciate not being tortured, I would still feed bad for those who are being tortured forever and ever.

Are you happy now and would God’s existence increase your happiness?

See above about God.

There are days I'm happy and there are days I'm sad. I am reading about psychology currently and am intrigued by the concept of human suffering due to inner passivity.

WhyWeSuffer.com

 

[bling]

I don't know how the Universe began. And I think it's an honest answer. It's better to be honest than to make things up, in m opinion.

As I understand Sean Carroll, our universe is just a small part of all there is.

Here is a list to a short video on youtube about this.

These are good questions to which I don't have the answers to. So, I don't know.

I think of these questions as trying to explain how Earth can be an oblong spheroid 300-400 years ago. You would have to know way to much and the explanation would require lots of scientific knowledge that was not commonly available and not easy to explain.

I'm not saying that I have that knowledge, only to coney the difficulty raised by such questions. I think the reason we don't usually question an oblong spheroid earth is because we see photos and images that help us understand the days/nights/seasons.

Flat Earthers have their opinions too, but they are the fringe group, which also shows the difficulty scientists face. No matter how well your explanation can explain the reality, not everyone will be convinced by it.



Perhaps you are right. Same thing can be said about God too. If he always existed, as Christians believe, then he can produce intelligence and there would be no limit to intelligence.....



This is a tough question. For sure, my birth was a natural one (i.e. I did not grow in a tube in some science lab, as far as I know) and yet, based on human biology we know that men produce far more sperm and women eggs that ultimately end up fertilized. What are the chances that that specific sperm inseminate an egg which created me would create me?

I think the scenario is virtually improbable, and yet, here I am, and here you are.

I think these 'what are the odds' questions are blown out of proportion by the religious. Think about it. I can go and have sex with a woman and produce a child. The odds of that child being born out of one of my sperm (out of millions sperm) would be highly improbable, and yet, we know unprotected sex frequently results in pregnancies leading to birth of children.

That pregnancy, which would be virtually guaranteed due to having unprotected sex can be made to look like a miracle if we start asking...what are the odds of this or that.

Further, I was born in the USSR. I'm now an American. What are the odds of that? What are the odds of my grandparents surviving WWII and giving birth to my parents? What are the odds of the particular couple coming together and having children vs other people they could have had sex with? The list goes on and on, and you can make any natural phenomenon into an incredibly unlikely miracle.



Ok, but God is infinite and that doesn't stop him from doing this thing, no?

I am not talking about the odds of a baby???

But odds anyone can easily relate to:

We are talking about an atheist believe that there is an infinite number of opportunities before you came into existence, given an infinite amount of time, so anything and everything has happened already, but that also means super intelligence (God) has already happened.

The odds of just energy, space, time and matter producing intelligence versus the odds of energy, space, time and matter, plus intelligence producing intelligence. We can easily see the way the later could produce intelligence, since we can today with those sources produce intelligence, but it is seemingly impossible for intelligence to spring up from just energy, space, time and matter, but the atheist will say it did which is fine. To believe there is no God (intelligence) you have to believe intelligence did happen, but given an infinite amount of time before you came into existence, would also have to mean you were not the first intelligence coming from just time, space, energy and matter, with super intelligence (God) also being most likely.

It is all very logical, while it is illogical to believe humans are the first intelligent beings.

It's a very difficult question, because, as I mentioned in other thread, I come from a Christian tradition that interpreted Hell as being a literal place where the wicked, including all unbelievers, are tortured forever and ever and I was taught that God is love.

These ideas are contradictory. If there exists a loving God, then there cannot be Hell. And if there exists Hell, there can not be a loving God. So, if we found that God exists, it would be a curious development and I am not sure how I would feel about that. If it truly was a God with eternal Hell, then it would be a very terrible news. Even if this God decided to save me contrary to his principles and force me into his heaven, while I would appreciate not being tortured, I would still feed bad for those who are being tortured forever and ever.


See above about God.

There are days I'm happy and there are days I'm sad. I am reading about psychology currently and am intrigued by the concept of human suffering due to inner passivity.

WhyWeSuffer.com

I appreciate your honesty and understand your logic.

God is not going to force anyone to go to heaven (that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). Also, God is being merciful to you by keeping His existence unknown to you.

Heaven is like a huge Love Feast, but there is only Godly type Love (unselfish Love), so people who want only carnal type love (to be Loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be) would not be happy in heaven. There is a lengthy explanation for hell (the second death) which includes degrees of punishment and annihilation (this could be quick or over some time). People go to hell not because God does not Love them, but because they chose not to accept God’s Love (fulfilling their earthly objective), so they take on the lessor objective of help some others still able to accept God’s Loves, to do it quickly while there is time. Hell becomes motivation for some potential believers to not tarry, it is part of God doing everything possible to help the willing individual to fulfill his/her earthly objective while they still can.

There are just somethings even God cannot do, but you can do while here on earth.

 

[Erik Nelson]

And yet, both are through Joseph, Jesus' adoptive father! How can that be the case? Did Jesus have two adoptive fathers named Joseph?

Luke wrote Luke-Acts circa 60-62 AD for & with Paul, who was then in Roman prison, waiting for his audience with the Roman kingly emperor (Nero)

Hence, Luke goes to great lengths to distance Jesus from the infamous 6 AD census of Quirinius, in which Judas the Galilean, perhaps emboldened by a revolt in Pannonia and perhaps also angered by Augustus' 170,000,000 sesterces founding grant to the Roman soldiery treasury (which he probably sought to recoup through taxes on provinces like Judas' Judea), did rebel against Roman rule and spill Roman blood...

so Luke was careful to say "census before" (proved by the Greek grammar of "protos + genitive verb") Quirinius'

And Luke was also careful to downplay Jesus' kingly lineage (as Matthew, tracing through David & Solomon and centuries of ancient Judaic kings)… but instead postured his peaceful non-Roman-threatening Messiah as more of a Priestly Prophet (tracing through Nathan the Prophet)

There are at least five (5) names in overlap between the two genealogies, suggesting some kind of connection. I presume Luke was not outright lying and completely making stuff up. And, his Luke-Acts document got Paul off the hook -- Paul was released circa 62 AD as a free man, having not offended the Roman king's sensibilities

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Thanks for your post. You don't have to feel for me as it's not a struggle for me anymore, being that I'm an Atheist.

I wanted to point out that there are internal issues in the Christian doctrines that are confusing as heck even for the fellow Christians. Every side has their Bible verses to support their conflicting views on the Gospel.

Check the Bible verses in context. Perhaps they don't support the position but have been misquoted or misunderstood.

 

[BigV]

Check the Bible verses in context. Perhaps they don't support the position but have been misquoted or misunderstood.

Every Christian with a doctrine set A thinks a fellow Christian with a doctrine set B should look at the context.

And then, who is it that wants to look at a context? Christian NT authors themselves did not look at the context.

For example,

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

In the context, this is talking about God of Israel delivering the nation of Israel out of slavery they experienced in Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 ..where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Whereas Gospeler Matthew says that Hosea 11:1 is a prophecy about a future event that was fulfilled in Jesus and his family fleeing to Egypt from Herod's wrath and then returning back.

And there are many examples where Christian authors take the Old Testament out of context. Look at the book of Hebrews, were the author seemingly randomly takes Old Testament passages out of Psalms and ascribing them to Jesus or God the Father speaking.

 

[miknik5]

Every Christian with a doctrine set A thinks a fellow Christian with a doctrine set B should look at the context.

And then, who is it that wants to look at a context? Christian NT authors themselves did not look at the context.

For example,

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

In the context, this is talking about God of Israel delivering the nation of Israel out of slavery they experienced in Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 ..where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Whereas Gospeler Matthew says that Hosea 11:1 is a prophecy about a future event that was fulfilled in Jesus and his family fleeing to Egypt from Herod's wrath and then returning back.

And there are many examples where Christian authors take the Old Testament out of context. Look at the book of Hebrews, were the author seemingly randomly takes Old Testament passages out of Psalms and ascribing them to Jesus or God the Father speaking.

The exodus is a picture of sacrifice and redemption...
GOD all along, through signs and shadows and representations was ever and always simply pointing to HIS SON...

The exodus was taking those who were marked as belonging to GOD (the lamb´s blood on the doorpost of external houses) out from egypt/sin/the sons of pharoah...and bringing them into THE ISRAEL of GOD, children marked as belonging to GOD...ISRAEL was never really Jacob which GOD was speaking of....HE was speaking of HIS SON as THE ISRAEL of GOD, the NATION, the PROMISED HOUSE in which all marked by HIS SON...are redeemed and called by HIS NAME...

GOD knows our limited humanity that we can never understand hidden, invisible spiritual things unless HE provided the signs and the shadows and the visible representations of what is HIDDEN...

And HE provided them...throughout HIS WORD, through HIS prophets, who never fully understood what they prophecied when the SPIRIT of CHRIST was in them speaking of all the graces which would come to that generation who benefitted by the fullness of time...that is, when CHRIST came and did for man what man could never do for themselves...that is, repair the severed relationship between an all HOLY GOD who can not stand in the presence of sin, and men, who had no hope apart from GOD sending the ONLY WAY/DOOR/GATE/LADDER unto HEAVEN...between GOD and men...

All throughout GODŚ WORD, HE hid HIS SON...and the WORD of GOD is a picture and a parallel and a well fitted puzzle pointing to HIS SON....

 

[miknik5]

The testimony/record/truth/revelation of JESUS...IS...THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY...every word of GOD in hidden signs and symbols spoke of JESUS....

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Every Christian with a doctrine set A thinks a fellow Christian with a doctrine set B should look at the context.

And then, who is it that wants to look at a context? Christian NT authors themselves did not look at the context.

For example,

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

In the context, this is talking about God of Israel delivering the nation of Israel out of slavery they experienced in Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 ..where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Whereas Gospeler Matthew says that Hosea 11:1 is a prophecy about a future event that was fulfilled in Jesus and his family fleeing to Egypt from Herod's wrath and then returning back.

And there are many examples where Christian authors take the Old Testament out of context. Look at the book of Hebrews, were the author seemingly randomly takes Old Testament passages out of Psalms and ascribing them to Jesus or God the Father speaking.

This might help: Another Puzzler: Hosea 11:1 in Matthew 2:15 - Theologically Driven

 

[BigV]

This might help: Another Puzzler: Hosea 11:1 in Matthew 2:15 - Theologically Driven

Well, if you are playing loose with the text, then 'context' loses it's meaning. That link doesn't address the problem, but confirms it.

 

[BigV]

The testimony/record/truth/revelation of JESUS...IS...THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY...every word of GOD in hidden signs and symbols spoke of JESUS....

I guess if you shall seek, you shall find whatever it is you are seeking. You can even find a prophesy where there was none. But if you keep looking, you just might find a prophecy that (wouldn't you believe it?) just happens to match your preconceived ideas in the first place.

Amazing how these things work out, isn't it?

 

[miknik5]

I guess if you shall seek, you shall find whatever it is you are seeking. You can even find a prophesy where there was none. But if you keep looking, you just might find a prophecy that (wouldn't you believe it?) just happens to match your preconceived ideas in the first place.

Amazing how these things work out, isn't it?

Those words apply to only ONE, and after finding that ONE, there would be no need to listen to anyone prophecying anything above or beyond CHRIST and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS...

In fact, one would recognize clearly that the one who does prophecy over and above THE GOSPEL. is a false ¨Prophet¨.


Isaiah 8 applies to those who speak not according to THE WORD and THE TESTIMONY

And in fact, the WORD states that those who do not speak according to THE WORD...will indeed listen to every and any spirit who whispers and mutters and suggests and implies everything over and above THE TESTIMONY

 

[BigV]

Those words apply to only ONE, and after finding that ONE, there would be no need to listen to anyone prophecying anything above or beyond CHRIST and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS...

Hosea was not even a prophecy. "Matthew" made it into a prophecy that just fit his narrative (note, Luke had no need for Hosea as his story did not include Egypt travels).

In fact, one would recognize clearly that the one who does prophecy over and above THE GOSPEL. is a false ¨Prophet¨.

Nobody knows what THE GOSPEL even is. Jesus himself claimed you will be saved by what you do, regardless of what you believe. Matthew 25:31-46. Is the one who preaches works salvation a false prophet?

There are plenty of Jewish believers who listen to Isaiah but who reject Christianity.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Well, if you are playing loose with the text, then 'context' loses it's meaning. That link doesn't address the problem, but confirms it.

This article is more in-depth: https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/55/55-4/JETS_55-4_697-715_Beale.pdf

 

[BigV]

This article is more in-depth: https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/55/55-4/JETS_55-4_697-715_Beale.pdf

Well, what can I say? If you want a prophecy, you can have your prophecy. Case closed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, what can I say? If you want a prophecy, you can have your prophecy. Case closed.

You could say you'll ................... read the article? G.K. Beale is noone to sneeze at!

 

[miknik5]

Hosea was not even a prophecy. "Matthew" made it into a prophecy that just fit his narrative (note, Luke had no need for Hosea as his story did not include Egypt travels).



Nobody knows what THE GOSPEL even is. Jesus himself claimed you will be saved by what you do, regardless of what you believe. Matthew 25:31-46. Is the one who preaches works salvation a false prophet?

There are plenty of Jewish believers who listen to Isaiah but who reject Christianity.

Please speak for yourself...the GOSPEL is clear and JESUS is very clear on what one must do to have salvation...

And if they listen to isaiah, then they would have understood that there is LIVING WATER that only comes by, and through and because of JESUS...and that sir, is through belief in HIM...

John 7

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Well, what can I say? If you want a prophecy, you can have your prophecy. Case closed.

You did read the article right? It's a tad wordy but it does explain the verse.

 

[BigV]

Please speak for yourself...the GOSPEL is clear and JESUS is very clear on what one must do to have salvation...

Matthew 25 is clear. Faith has nothing to do with whether or not you are going to be saved or damned. And everyone will be surprised at their fate.