Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

[Sophia7]

This is an official request to everyone that you stick to the issues and avoid flaming, personal attacks, questioning of each other's motives, accusations of martyr complexes, etc. Please be civil to each other even in disagreeing. I really don't want to have to close this thread permanently.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

When you try to dl'd the file it asks if you want to install the program that reads it.

really!!!!!! never knew that

 

[Adventist Dissident]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45. IS IT A SIN TO BE SICK? [/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] EGW: YES "It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the result of transgression" (Counsels on
Health, p. 37).[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLE: NO "So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful
sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. ... In all this, Job did not sin" (Job 2:7, 10). [/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT] [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is the very next sentence after the above Ellen White quote. [/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin" (Counsels on Health, p. 37)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here we clear up any notion that everyone who gets sick is just paying the price for their own sins.
Many things are handed down and we have no control of that. If our parents and ancestors abuse their health (a pregnant mother on drugs or alcohol, for example) we end up being affected by it, fair or not. This is all still the result of violating God's laws of health and nature. In fact, there would BE NO SICKNESS if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned in the first place. God doesn't invent sickness, it is the result of living in a sinful world and is amplified by our own unhealthful practices. This is what she meant by calling it "sin." As we saw in her very next sentence, she didn't mean that by getting sick one has then and there committed a sin. All of the human health problems are the result of an accumulation of sins and violations of the health laws, no honest person can deny that. [/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The listed Bible text (Job 2:7,10) shows Satan inflicting Job with sores, and obviously this was not
Job's fault. If Ellen White were saying what D&D are trying to prove that she's saying, then this text
(along with many others) would prove her wrong; but she's simply not saying that. [/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]D&D add "It is a matter of record that Ellen White was sick a lot --does that mean she sinned a lot?" Much of Ellen White's poor health conditions were the result of that tragic and nearly fatal accident as a child, but even for the other times when she was sick, we need to understand what she was saying (by reading the next sentence) before we call her a hypocrite or accuse her of contradicting the Bible.

This seems to be a good answer Tall73
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[OntheDL]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45. IS IT A SIN TO BE SICK? [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EGW: YES "It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the result of transgression" (Counsels on[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Health, p. 37).[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLE: NO "So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. ... In all this, Job did not sin" (Job 2:7, 10). [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is the very next sentence after the above Ellen White quote. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin" (Counsels on Health, p. 37)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here we clear up any notion that everyone who gets sick is just paying the price for their own sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Many things are handed down and we have no control of that. If our parents and ancestors abuse their health (a pregnant mother on drugs or alcohol, for example) we end up being affected by it, fair or not. This is all still the result of violating God's laws of health and nature. In fact, there would BE NO SICKNESS if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned in the first place. God doesn't invent sickness, it is the result of living in a sinful world and is amplified by our own unhealthful practices. This is what she meant by calling it "sin." As we saw in her very next sentence, she didn't mean that by getting sick one has then and there committed a sin. All of the human health problems are the result of an accumulation of sins and violations of the health laws, no honest person can deny that. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The listed Bible text (Job 2:7,10) shows Satan inflicting Job with sores, and obviously this was not[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Job's fault. If Ellen White were saying what D&D are trying to prove that she's saying, then this text[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica](along with many others) would prove her wrong; but she's simply not saying that. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]D&D add "It is a matter of record that Ellen White was sick a lot --does that mean she sinned a lot?" Much of Ellen White's poor health conditions were the result of that tragic and nearly fatal accident as a child, but even for the other times when she was sick, we need to understand what she was saying (by reading the next sentence) before we call her a hypocrite or accuse her of contradicting the Bible.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]This seems to be a good answer Tall73[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Our current condition of death and suffering IS because of sin.

 

[djconklin]

EGW: YES "It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the result of transgression" (Counsels on
Health, p. 37).

It helps to understand what she meant by (a) reading the whole chapter vs ripping one sentence out of context as the critics did, (b) consider the historical context in which she wrote, and (c) do not assume that the critics are right (if you are going to assume anything note that they have an axe to grind and are not trying to find the truth).

Our current condition of death and suffering IS because of sin.

Excellant observation!

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
When you try to dl'd the file it asks if you want to install the program that reads it.

really!!!!!! never knew that

We learn something new every day.

 

[OntheDL]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]45. IS IT A SIN TO BE SICK? [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EGW: YES "It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the result of transgression" (Counsels on[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Health, p. 37).[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLE: NO "So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. ... In all this, Job did not sin" (Job 2:7, 10). [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is the very next sentence after the above Ellen White quote. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin" (Counsels on Health, p. 37)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here we clear up any notion that everyone who gets sick is just paying the price for their own sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Many things are handed down and we have no control of that. If our parents and ancestors abuse their health (a pregnant mother on drugs or alcohol, for example) we end up being affected by it, fair or not. This is all still the result of violating God's laws of health and nature. In fact, there would BE NO SICKNESS if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned in the first place. God doesn't invent sickness, it is the result of living in a sinful world and is amplified by our own unhealthful practices. This is what she meant by calling it "sin." As we saw in her very next sentence, she didn't mean that by getting sick one has then and there committed a sin. All of the human health problems are the result of an accumulation of sins and violations of the health laws, no honest person can deny that. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The listed Bible text (Job 2:7,10) shows Satan inflicting Job with sores, and obviously this was not[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Job's fault. If Ellen White were saying what D&D are trying to prove that she's saying, then this text[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica](along with many others) would prove her wrong; but she's simply not saying that. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]D&D add "It is a matter of record that Ellen White was sick a lot --does that mean she sinned a lot?" Much of Ellen White's poor health conditions were the result of that tragic and nearly fatal accident as a child, but even for the other times when she was sick, we need to understand what she was saying (by reading the next sentence) before we call her a hypocrite or accuse her of contradicting the Bible.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]This seems to be a good answer Tall73[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Didn't David's son with Bathshiba die because of David's sin?

IHO, you should stop wasting time with a magnified glass to look at others' writing and begin studying the Bible. When you know what the whole bible teaches, you will know if EGW's writing is in accordance or not.

 

[djconklin]

IHO, you should stop wasting time with a magnified glass to look at others' writing and begin studying the Bible. When you know what the whole bible teaches, you will know if EGW's writing is in accordance or not.

Even Ellen White pointed out that the Adventists wouldn't need her writiungs if they had been studying the Bible like they ought to have done.

In her last public speaking engagement she held up the Bible (not one of her books) and said, "Gentlemen, I commend unto you this book."

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Even Ellen White pointed out that the Adventists wouldn't need her writiungs if they had been studying the Bible like they ought to have done.

so why do we just study without her?

In her last public speaking engagement she held up the Bible (not one of her books) and said, "Gentlemen, I commend unto you this book."

what else is she going to say, gentleman I commend to you the Koran, the Peral of Great price, the pali, the Darma Sutra. of course she is going to say the Bible bout true and false prophets will endorse the Bible that is no claim to weather they are of God or not.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

here is a "shut door" post from an the orignial printing from "word to the little flock"
http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflock-jwhite.html

this is a pro Adventist site.



"I cannot endorse sister Ellen's visions as being of divine inspiration, as you and she think them to be; yet I do not suspect the least shade of dishonesty in either of you in this matter. I may perhaps express to you my belief in the matter, without harm - it will, doubtless, result either in your good or mine. At the same time, I admit the possibility of my being mistaken. I think that what she and you regard as visions from the Lord, are only religious reveries, in which her imagination runs without control upon themes in which she is most deeply interested. While so absorbed in these reveries, she is lost to everything around her. Reveries are of two kinds, sinful and religious. Hers is the latter. Rosseau's, "a celebrated French infidel," were the former. Infidelity was his theme, and his reveries were infidel. Religion is her theme, and her reveries are religious. In either case, the sentiments, in the main, are obtained from previous teaching, or study. I do not by any means think her visions are like some from the devil."
However true this extract may be in relation to reveries, it is not true in regard to the visions: for the author does not "obtain the sentiments" of her visions "from previous teaching or study." When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, (where her parents then resided) had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.
It is well known that many were expecting the Lord to come at the 7th month, 1845. That Christ would then come we firmly believed. A few days before the time passed, I was at Fairhaven, and Dartmouth Mass., with a message on this point of time. At this time, Ellen was with the band at Carver, Mass., where she saw in vision, that we should be disappointed, and that the saints must pass through the "time of Jacob's trouble," which was future. Her view of Jacob's trouble was entirely new to us, as well as herself. At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen had a vision of the handiworks of God. She was guided to the planets Jupiter, Saturn, and I think one more. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. It is well known, that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision.

Notice that that the shut door was believed before Her vision in dec 1844 and was given up. I was after her vision that they believed it again.. That is puzzling

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Post 34 from http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw1.htm sates that:
. (3) Ellen White had visions supporting this "shut door" doctrine see previous post http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflock-jwhite.html
However true this extract may be in relation to reveries, it is not true in regard to the visions: for the author does not "obtain the sentiments" of her visions "from previous teaching or study." When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, (where her parents then resided) had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.
1. shut door given up
2. vision given
3. revived the belief.
4. band of 60 confessed error in giving up a belief that was later abandond, but revived because of a vision of egw.

That is evidence and it is a problem

(

2) In 1848 there was a war in Europe, and later a pestilence occurred, and the Advent believers took these events as signs that the time of trouble had commenced.

There was no "war" in Europe in 1848--there were revolutions tho'.

from wikipedia you are splittng hairs. on this one the revloution were wars that were short, killed tens's of thousands of peoples and changed governments. question how long does a war have to last to be a war? How man people have to die to quallify as a war. There were internal wars, not conflicts between countries. liberalism was spreading that was the basis for the wars revloution agains the monarchy a new social order.
The Revolutions
of 1848 Prelude Revolution in France
Revolution in Habsburg areas
Revolution in the German states
Revolution in Italy
Revolution in Poland
Aftermath
Be sure to check out the aftermath

 

[djconklin]

revived the belief.
4. band of 60 confessed error in giving up a belief that was later abandond, but revived because of a vision of egw.

That is evidence and it is a problem

When the evidence you post doesn't support the claim that any belief was "revived" then we have a problem with the claim that it was revived.

There was no "war" in Europe in 1848--there were revolutions tho'.

from wikipedia you are splittng hairs.

I took history courses in college that covered that timeframe. If you wish to argue with professors and scholars in the field you go right ahead. Why don't you write it up (like I am doing) and submit it to reputable scholarly journals in the field and we'll see who gets published first, eh?

BTW, from your list note the red words:

The Revolutions of 1848
Prelude
Revolution in France
Revolution in Habsburg areas
Revolution in the German states
Revolution in Italy
Revolution in Poland

Not one war in the bunch--one of the revolutions lasted two weeks!

 

[tall73]

We learn something new every day.

He stated earlier that the computer was running Linux. I assume it did not prompt him to install.

I am not sure why they changed from Adobe anyway, and went with Lizardtech.

 

[Sophia7]

Not one war in the bunch--one of the revolutions lasted two weeks!

And how many people died in those two weeks?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

When the evidence you post doesn't support the claim that any belief was "revived" then we have a problem with the claim that it was revived.



I took history courses in college that covered that timeframe. If you wish to argue with professors and scholars in the field you go right ahead. Why don't you write it up (like I am doing) and submit it to reputable scholarly journals in the field and we'll see who gets published first, eh?

BTW, from your list note the red words:

The Revolutions of 1848
Prelude
Revolution in France
Revolution in Habsburg areas
Revolution in the German states
Revolution in Italy
Revolution in Poland

Not one war in the bunch--one of the revolutions lasted two weeks!

25000-70000 dead from the reveloution of 1848, sounds like enough to make it seem like a war to me. that is a lot of killing. By the way have you ever heard of the 7days war. how long was that. They called them reveloution because they were trying to change the government, the did not call the wars becaused they failed. If they would have called it war. Hum the American Reveloutionary WAR. it succeded. the French Revloutionary war, it succeded. hum seems like were fighting over verbal or thought meaning. That is a real shaky argument, like quick sand, it slipping away from you. not a stong. all agree that there was fighting and it caused uncertanty. what you are objecting to is the term used. what is the differnce between WAR and REVELOUTION(done with violence)?
Tally of Deaths from Enlightenment Regimes

1776-1783 American Revolution
A precursor to the true Enlightenment regimes, the American Revolution had causes beyond the ideological assertion of the right to self-government, and the justifiability of war to attain it. However, it provided an indication of what was to come in the much more ideologically based (and bloody) French Revolution 1789 French Revolution
The first government based on Enlightenment principles takes power. 1793-1794 Reign of Terror 30,000-40,000[1] The first government inspired by the Enlightenment uses "scientific" application of the guillotine to eliminate those who are considered disloyal. 1803-1815 The Napoleonic Wars 3,500,000–6,000,000[2] The Napoleonic Wars sought to spread the liberties and Enlightenment ideals of French society to the rest of Europe, at the cost of a tremendous loss of life. 1848-1849 Revolutions of 1848 25,000 - 70,000[3] In this case, revolutionaries inspired by enlightenment ideals failed to gain power in numerous European countries 1917-1922 Russian Civil War 2,800,000 - 10,000,000[4] The first time Karl Marx's political ideology is embraced by a governing regime casts a long shadow over the 20th century. 1924-53 Soviet Union, Stalin's regime 20,000,000-60,000,000[5] Stalin sought to create a communist utopia in the Soviet Union by eliminating those uncommitted to communism and his regime. 1927-1950 Chinese Civil War 2,500,000 [6] Although only one side of the war typified an Enlightenment government, the struggle over Enlightenment ideals was at the heart of the war. 1933-1945 Nazi Germany 15,003,000 - 31,595,000[7] Hitler promised a better world of progress to the German people, grounded in secularism and science. His racist ideology called for the elimination of individuals and peoples who were considered to be inferior and obstacles to the promised utopia. 1949-1975 People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's Regime 30,000,000 - 72,000,000[8] Another exponent of global Communism, Mao sought to create a worker's paradise in China. 1975-1979 Khmer Rouge Cambodia 1,000,000 - 2,300,000[9] Educated in Paris, Pol Pot sought to create a Marxist state in Cambodia where the dismantling of urban life would create an idyllic agricultural

 

[OntheDL]

When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, (where her parents then resided) had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.[/U]
1. shut door given up
2. vision given
3. revived the belief.
4. band of 60 confessed error in giving up a belief that was later abandond, but revived because of a vision of egw.

That is evidence and it is a problem

Classic example of picking on something that isn't there.

If they had expected Christ to come back on Oct 22, 1844, but Christ did not. Guess what they had given up? The whole doctrine on 1844. Then the Lord showed EGW where they erred: the literal interpretation of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Afterwards they revived the 1844 belief with the new understanding.

You need to understand the 1844 investigative judgment, then you can understand where the error was and what was the new light they received.

 

[djconklin]

And how many people died in those two weeks?

I don't recall--the history class was about a decade ago! I remember because it writing the essay for the final I had to scratch out much of what I had written because I was describing the wrong revolt!

There was one "revolt" in June in which in 3 days ab't 1,000 people were killed.

Here's an excellant book on the subject of the 1848 Revolutions: http://www.amazon.com/1848-Revolutions-Seminar-Studies-History/dp/0582061067

 

[djconklin]

the reveloution of 1848

There was no single revolution in 1848. There outbreaks in various countries in Europe.

sounds like enough to make it seem like a war to me.

Well, write it up and send it to scholarly journals and get your POV published.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Classic example of picking on something that isn't there.

If they had expected Christ to come back on Oct 22, 1844, but Christ did not. Guess what they had given up? The whole doctrine on 1844. Then the Lord showed EGW where they erred: the literal interpretation of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Afterwards they revived the 1844 belief with the new understanding.

You need to understand the 1844 investigative judgment, then you can understand where the error was and what was the new light they received.

but that is not what it says.

When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844, she and all the band in Portland, Maine, (where her parents then resided) had given up the midnight-cry, and shut door, as being in the past. It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.
it says they the had given up the midnight-cry,and the shut door as being in the past. Does it mean that they revived it as being in the past or still present or still applicable. If they gave it up doesn't it mean that they stopped beleving it and they were going to go back to their chruches? The at was the point of the vision to engourage them to still believe that God was with them and this was not just a bigh mistake. the door of mercy had been shut and they were to just wait a little more.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

There was no single revolution in 1848. There outbreaks in various countries in Europe.



Well, write it up and send it to scholarly journals and get your POV published.

If you would have clicked on the link, you would see that it is not my point of view. It is what is generally know, I pulled it of wikipedia.Revolutions of 1848 25,000 - 70,000[3] In this case, revolutionaries inspired by enlightenment ideals failed to gain power in numerous European countries