Why critics of Ellen G. White are "splitting hairs".

[reddogs]

Lets begin as I always do with a little prayer in our heart and a lot of humbleness that we can never understand all of Gods ways and how he works. But when it comes to Prophets we can test them and see if they stand up to it and see if they strengthen Gods truth as all true prophets come from the same source.

So lets start at what I mean by "splitting hairs", then I will over over how to test the Prophets and then what the net affect from turning aside from Ellen G. White.

My father asked me to find him some DDR2 memory for his computer this fall and he wanted quality at a good price. So I "promised him I would get him a GIG of memory, good quality that would cost him less than $100" during the Thanskgiving or Christmas sales. Well I did my research on all the sale ads and sure enough one of the stores had a GIG of DDR2 memory for $89.99 after rebate so I took him there. I showed it to him and it was Kingstone DDR2 of 1 GIG, and he was delighted then I told him it was $89.99 after rebate and he said that did not meet his criteria as the upfront cost was $119.99 so I had failed to meet his request.

Now my dad is what I loving call a "bean counting hair splitter" and he is not to be denied in his rational of what is correct so we had to leave the store without buying the 1 Gig of DDR2 memory for his computer. So his computer still runs slower than a snail and he calls constantly to ask how to make it faster, but he will not budge on going and buying the memory for $89.99 after rebate.

So the question is did I meet his criteria of a GIG of memory, of good quality that would cost him less than $100, or not. The "hair splitters" will say no, those who know how much a Gig of Kignston memory goes for will say buy the memory send in the rebate and sell it to him for $89.99 (plus s small handling fee for all the trouble he cause).....

We could debate this forever from infinite tangents, levels, dimensions...............all for what and to what end. The net result is he didnt get the memory, he is not benefiting from the 1 Gig of memory on his computer, and he is still suffering the consequences of not gettting the memory, all over the "hari splitting" of what constitutes "under a $100 dollars"..........

Next we will go over what is the criteria and how to test the Prophets, but I have to get my research together then post...

 

[reddogs]

How to test the Prophets?:


...In the basic New Testament lists of spiritual gifts the "prophetic gift" is listed as second-between that of apostles (first) and that of teachers (third). See 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; Ephesians 4:11. The gift did not usurp the role of the apostles, but its function affected the apostles at times as well as the church membership in general. Some of the apostles were themselves endowed with this gift. The activities of persons so endowed in NT times may be summarized as follows:

1. They were commissioned at times to forewarn of coming difficulties (Acts 11:27-30; 20:23; 21:10-14). In the first instance (Acts 11) the warning of coming famine resulted in a brotherly bonding of the Gentile Christians in Antioch with the Jewish Christians in Judea. The former, contrary to ethnic customs, willingly sent relief to their Jewish brothers in Christ.

2. Through the gift the foreign mission outreach of the church was initiated (Acts 13:1, 2). It also had a part in directing where the early missionaries were to labor (Acts 16:6-10). In Paul's second missionary tour it is noted that he was accompanied by Silas, a prophet (Acts 16:40).

3. In a doctrinal crisis the gift functioned to encourage and to confirm the membership in the true doctrine. The crisis pertained to the relationship of the Jewish ritual to the salvation of Gentile Christians. A large church council made a decision in harmony with the Spirit's directive (Acts 15), although the decision was not inwardly accepted by all. The controversy had broken out in Antioch to which church the decision of the council was related by letter. Judas and Silas ministered for a time to this group: "And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted [parakaleo, appeal to, urge, exhort, encourage] the brethren with many words and strengthened [confirmed, KJV; episterizo, strengthen] them" (Acts 15:32, RSV).

4. The prophets built up, encouraged, and consoled the church. "He who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding, (oikodome, metaphorically, 'building up the spiritual life') and encouragement [paraklesis, encouragement, exhortation] and consolation [paramuthia, encouragement, comfort, consolation]" (1 Cor 14:3, RSV).

5. The prophets tended (along with the other gifts) to unify the church in the true faith and to protect it from false doctrines. "And his gifts were . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles" (Eph 4:11-15, RSV).

6. The prophets along with the apostles assisted in founding the church. "You are . . . built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone" (Eph 2:20, RSV; cf. 3:5; 4:11)......


So the prophets did a lot more than just see the future, but what about the interpretation of what they were shown or given a understanding?

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1: 19-21)


But not all predictions about the future are from God. So God gives us some guidelines in determining the source behind a prophet.


If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. (Deuteronomy 13: 1-4 NIV)


So, here God is telling us that the written word of God supercedes any prophet or vision. If a prophet or vision contradicts the word of God then we must ignore them. Tradition, persons in authority, politics and a new vision cannot contradict or tell you to ignore the written word. Bible study is supremely important. Therefore, to reject the authenticity and source of the Bible makes us subject to deceitful spirits and experiences. The apostle Peter states, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." (2 Peter 2: 1-2) You must test the prophets. Even if they predict with accuracy or can do great miracles, if they lead you away from God or his Word then he was not sent by God. Was Ellen White infallible? No. Nor were God’s prophets of the past. But their basic teaching always reflects God’s teaching. The Word of God is not produced by the will of man, but by the will of God. We are told that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God [in the original it is said that all Scriptures come out of God], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Century Gothic]In other words, what comes out of the mouth of God is infallible, though what prophets understand may sometimes be inaccurate. When Nathan agreed with David that the king was the one to build the temple in Jerusalem, this was not God’s plan. Both David and Nathan were true prophets, but both misinterpreted God’s will. However, when such serious mistakes are about to be made, God always corrects His servants the prophets. In the end, the temple was not built by David, but by his son Solomon. We may know with certainty that God never leaves the prophet in error when his or her basic doctrine is not accurate. (See 1 Chronicles 17).[/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Century Gothic]Are Ellen White’s writings a second Bible? They are not. In fact she considered herself a lesser light helping to understand the greater light found in the Holy Bible (2 Peter 1:19, 21). Through out her life she kept pointing to the Bible. (See CM 125; EW 78, MH 465; GC 593)[/FONT]

 

[Jimlarmore]

This was some good posting Reddogs. Thankyou very much.

God Bless you
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

Well I havent got to the part why fighting against God by rejecting his prophets can cause problems, as yet. The New Testament doctrine of "spiritual gifts" (which includes the prophetic gift) has never been rescinded. If the past may give any indication of the future, we may note that the prophetic gift commonly functioned at periods of crisis or significance: Noah before the Flood; the major and minor prophets cluster around the critical periods of Israel's history when Assyria, Babylon, and Persia threaten or affect Israel's existence; John the Baptist before Christ's advent, et cetera. It would be reasonable to expect therefore, some kind of prophetic manifestation prior to the close of human probation and the Second Advent, the consummation of the Plan of Salvation.

When God warned the ancient world of the coming judgment, He made use of a prophet. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God has always used prophets to warn His people and in the time of the exodus He used Moses to lead the people out of Egypt to Canaan. Moses was more than a prophet, he was also the leader of the people. Moses had to prepare a people for their entry into the Promised Land and this great event serves as a type for the final gathering of God’s people and their entry into the heavenly Canaan. Surely if a prophet was deemed necessary for the preparation for earthly Canaan, how much more so for the heavenly Canaan. The Bible predicts that the remnant would possess the spirit of prophecy and that the restoration of this gift would be one of the issues that Satan would war against.

And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 NKJV
...Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10 NKJV

God’s remnant must thus possess the spirit of prophecy in order to qualify as the remnant and we need to understand the issues involved. There is nothing more dangerous to Satan, than the clear revelation of the will of God. The way to war against it is to cast contempt upon it or to counterfeit it. It is therefore vital that we understand the Biblical criteria for the manifestation of the gift of prophecy, and that we understand the reasons why God grants this gift in the first place, so that we will not be swept away by Satan’s deceptions.


When Adam and Eve sinned, their first impulse was to hide themselves from God.

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8

Their reason for hiding themselves was that they recognized their nakedness. When God called Adam, Adam answered:

...’I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.’ Genesis 3:10

Adam and Eve had been stripped of their cloak of righteousness and stood naked before God. Sin caused a separation between God and man.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

And only in Christ are we reconciled to God:

For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:10

The message of reconciliation has been entrusted to the church. To the Old Testament church in type, and to the New Testament church in verity.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech by us; we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20

In Christ, we are reconciled with God, but as long as sin exists, face to face communication with God is not possible. The brightness of His glory would consume us.
Whenever God has revealed Himself to man, it was either in a dream vision or God veiled His glory. When God spoke to Israel from Mt. Sinai, He warned them that they would die if they were to come too close. The presence of God, although veiled in thick clouds, was so impressive that the people requested Moses to speak to them the words of God, lest they should die from the voice of God. (Exodus 20:19) The prophets of old, even in vision, felt that they would die in the presence of God.

Then I said, ‘Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.’ Isaiah 6:5 NKJV

And in New Testament times, the situation was no different. When John saw Jesus in vision, he fell as dead.

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, ‘Fear not; I am the first and the last,...’ Revelation 1:17

One day it will be possible again to stand before God and speak to Him face to face:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12 NKJV

Our communication is hindered, but it will be restored.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13: 9,10 NKJV

So how does God Communicate with us, well lets start with his Son? The greatest gift to fallen man is the gift of God’s own Son:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The greatest words ever spoken were the words of Christ when He walked amongst men. God did not leave His children without words of life before the incarnation of the Son of God, and neither did He leave them orphans after the resurrection. Throughout the ages, God communicated His will to His servants the prophets.

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7

These prophets did not speak their own words, but revealed God’s will to man.

...for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

Prophets, chosen by God, have been used by God since the fall.

...God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:21

A prophet must be able to stand the tests that are outlined in the Bible:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1 NKJV

False prophets also claim to have dreams and to see visions, so the Scriptures must provide criteria whereby the authenticity of the prophet’s utterings may be tested.
The gift of prophecy is one of the gifts given to the people of God to maintain the integrity of the church throughout all the ages. The prophets of old were given messages of warning and reproof, as well as visions and dreams of future and past events to keep the people of God on track. The prophets were, as it were, the eyes of the church. The spiritual body, the church, is compared to the human body.

For as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12

Just as the human body is a highly organized structure where all components work in unity, so the people of God form a unit with different components. Among the gifts given by Christ to the church, the gift of prophecy features prominently. Not everyone receives the same gifts:

Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. 1 Corinthians 7:7 NKJV

The Bible lists a series of tests that can be applied to prophets to determine whether they are genuine or not. Taken individually, it is possible to counterfeit many of these tests, but collectively, they provide an impassable barrier to false prophets. False prophets can quote Scripture or have some of their prophecies come true, but they can still be false prophets, subtly using every opportunity to lead God’s people astray. A prophet of God will have to satisfy all the Biblical criteria, which can be summarized as follows:

1) A true prophet’s message will be in complete harmony with the word of God and the law of God.
To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
Most modern-day prophets would fail this test. A prophet cannot negate what God has revealed in His word, and all the precepts of the law are binding.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10
When the law is not observed, the gift of prophecy is withdrawn:
...the law is no more, her prophets also find no vision from the Lord. Lamentations 2:9

2) A true prophet’s predictions must come to pass.
As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent. Jeremiah 28:9 NKJV
...when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:22 NKJV
A word of warning seems in order here. A prophet’s predictions may come true, and he/she may even perform miracles to convince you of the genuineness of the prophecy - yet it may be false.
If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying ‘ Let us go after other gods’ - which you have not known - and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. Deuteronomy 13:1-4 NKJV
Signs and wonders are no test of genuineness. As in the above Scriptural example, the prophet’s words were not in harmony with the Law of God. Satan will work miracles in the last days to deceive many. (Revelation 16:14)

3) A true prophet prophesies to edify the church, counseling and advising in religious matters.
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification and exhortation, and comfort, ... but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 1 Corinthians 14:3,4
But I am the Lord your God, ever since the land of Egypt; I will again make you dwell in tents, as in the days of the appointed feast. I have also spoken by the prophets, and have multiplied visions; I have given symbols through the witness of the prophets. Hosea 12:9,10 NKJV
A true prophet will not flatter or condone sin (transgression of the law 1 John 3:4)

4) A true prophet will exalt Christ as the Son of God and the Saviour of mankind.
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.... Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 1 John 4:12,15 NKJV
When Jesus, after His resurrection, expounded the Scriptures to His disciples, He revealed to them the prophetic proclamations regarding Himself.
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Luke 24:27
Again a word of warning regarding this test. Many false prophets will say to Jesus in the last judgment:
‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?’ Matthew 7:22
The Lord will, however, not recognize them as His, as they practiced iniquity (Greek: anomia - against the law of God). They seem to pass the test, but fail in regard to the Law.

5) The true prophet will speak with authority:
...for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Matthew 7:29
Jesus is the supreme example, and He spoke those things which He had seen and heard from the Father (John 8:26,28,38). A prophet will likewise reveal those things with authority that have been revealed to him by God.

6) The true prophet will bear good fruit.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:20
This test is compelling. Does the prophet live a life in harmony with the will of God and are the lives of those he/she touches transformed so that they too live godly lives? Once again, a word of warning. No one is without sin and all fall short of the glory of God.
Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. James 5:17 NKJV
Although Elijah had similar faults and passions as we have, yet he strove to live a godly life and the fruits of his labor testify that he was truly a prophet of God.

7)The true prophet, when in vision, will exhibit physical signs:
a) In vision, the prophet’s will have certain characteristics.
The utterance of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, who falls down, with eyes wide open. Numbers 24:4 NKJV

 

[Adventist Heretic]

reddog

no one disagrees with your understanding of how biblical prophets work. your post is quite good in fact. The question is weather or not the prophetic gift was manifisted in the life of ellen G white. The supporters say yes the critics say no. the issue is does EGW fit the prophetic gift. SDA's have been defensive of EGW and allowed no room for this matter, case in point DM Canwright. He was attacked and slandered for expressing doubt and he knew her first hand.

 

[reddogs]

Icedragon,

The bottom line is she passes the tests as well as any prophet in the Bible, but because she actually goes the next step and teaches about health, leadership, social morals, education, and giving our lives to God in other aspect of our everyday living it rubs those under another influence the wrong way. They are absolutely intent on taking out this beacon that shines on their decisions that go away from Gods truth or lead them down to false beliefs and doctrines.

Here is some of the answers that she gives and from research by others:

The church pioneer including Ellen White herself believed that acceptance of her prophetic ministry should not be used as a test of church fellowship.

Ellen White didn't call herself a prophet, as there were others in America at the time who were claiming the title and giving it a bad name.
"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title." (Selected Messages 1, page 32) However she did not object to others calling her a prophet. Instead, she preferred the term "messenger" (c.f. Douglass' book "Messenger of the Lord"). This is also the term used in fundamental belief 18.
See Review and Herald article July 26, 1906 A Messenger
Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies. {RH, July 26, 1906 par. 7}

In 1981 the church hired Vincent L. Ramik, a Roman Catholic lawyer specialising in copyright law, to investigate the charge of plagiarism. He concluded strongly in The Ramik Report by Roman Catholic lawyer Vincent L. Ramik in 1981. He concluded strongly that Ellen White was not a plagiarist:
"Based upon our review of the facts and legal precedents, we conclude that Ellen G. White was not a plagiarist and her works did not constitute copyright infringement/piracy." Her clearest statements on how inspiration or revelation from God works are found in the introduction to The Great Controversy and pages 15 to 23 of Selected Messages volume 1. (ref - "The Lesser and the Greater Lights", see below)
"The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God." - Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.1-2} Comparison with biblical authors

Adventist authors such as Alden Thompson and Graeme Bradford have pointed out that many of the criticisms levelled at Ellen White's writings actually apply to the biblical authors as well. In particular, not all biblical content was derived from visions, although Adventists still believe it is "inspired":

• Research: Inspired writers may supplement revelation with research (Luke 1:1-4, etc.) (Thompson, 157)
• Scribes or literary assistants (Romans 16:22, etc.) (Thompson, 160)
• Editing and compiling (Proverbs 25:1, etc.) (Thompson, 163)
• different emphases on scripture, etc.

Testing the prophet

She mentioned the phrase, 'the truth as it is in Jesus' hundreds of times. The primary test that Bradford suggests in Prophets are Human is whether or not her writings point the reader to Jesus. Other supportive arguments which are used are miraculous physical signs which were present, the accuracy of her health message, predictions, character of her life and so on.

Level of authority

Ellen White clearly and repeatedly stated that the Bible is the ultimate authority, and not her writings. Given this, there is some variation within Adventists over whether her writings have authority for determining doctrine, or merely pastoral or devotional in nature. While there is some variation within the church regarding the level of authority attributed to her writings, but all leaders agree that the Bible has precedence. A well known metaphor she used was that she was the "lesser light" pointing to the "greater light" of the Bible:
"Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light" (Review and Herald, January 20, 1903). In conclusion:
"1. She consistently refused to be the arbiter of truth. No doctrinal position was to be determined and defended on the basis of 'Ellen White says.' 2. She wanted all to 'wrestle' with the Scripture. 3. Using her as final arbiter would inevitably lead to biblical illiteracy. 4. In order to have any lasting credibility with our own church members, let alone with Christians of other faiths, all of our doctrines must be based solely and completely on the Bible."[7] [7] Prophetic gift of Ellen White

 

[OntheDL]

reddog

no one disagrees with your understanding of how biblical prophets work. your post is quite good in fact. The question is weather or not the prophetic gift was manifisted in the life of ellen G white. The supporters say yes the critics say no. the issue is does EGW fit the prophetic gift. SDA's have been defensive of EGW and allowed no room for this matter, case in point DM Canwright. He was attacked and slandered for expressing doubt and he knew her first hand.

Judas also knew Jesus first hand. What did that account to?

Dudly Canwright was received back 3 times when he repented. That didn't sound to me that he was attacked and slandered. It sounds like the Adventist church was quite lenient and compassioned with him. The door was left open for him until he final left and became a (sunday) Baptist pastor. So it sounded he erred.

Canwright not only attacked EGW on the dotrines, he also attacked on personal characters. However he was among the chief mourners at her funeral. So it also sounds like he was a very inconsistant person.

Furthermore, the fact that the church allowed him to attend EGW's funeral shows the church handled the situation properly.

 

[reddogs]

Now for anyone who has seen the truths she gives, they are reflection of the Holy Scripture with a more comtemporary description and in my opinion enhanced by her inspired insight, the Daniel and the Revelation prophecies were what the current understanding was at the time (as you can read from Uriah Smith's book) and is still today. The Holy Scriptures, composed of the Old and New Testaments, are themselves the product of the operation of the prophetic gift. Indirectly the Scriptures themselves indicate a closed canon of sacred writings. The limits and sections of the OT were already known and understood in Jesus' time. In Matthew 23:35, Jesus indirectly indicates its outer limits: Genesis to 2 Chronicles (the last book in the Hebrew Bible), and its three-part division in Luke 24:27, 44-the Law of Moses, the prophets, and the writings, the first of which was the Psalms.

Hebrews describes the unfolding revelation thus: "In many and various ways [literally, `In many portions and in many ways'] God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son" (Heb 1:1, 2, RSV). Starting with Moses (fifteenth century B.C.) the revelations from God begin to be recorded; over the centuries other prophets record the messages entrusted to them as God saw fit to further the understanding of His people. Finally, God chose to make His ultimate revelation through His Son. Jesus Christ has given the human family the greatest revelation of God possible for man to receive (John 1:18). The New Testament is the inspired apostolic witness and interpretation of Jesus Christ and His teaching. His is an unrepeatable life and disclosure; theirs is an unrepeatable attestation to Him. So she was following in this with her "Steps to Christ" and "Great Controversy", just like the New Testament writers and I dont think she is in disagreement with them. Some people just try to make controversy so as to cause a argument and throw everyone into confusion, even Paul did it when he was before the Pharisees and the Saducees.

ACTS 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

ACTS 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.


Still we must stand up her description of Gods "truth" against the Bible, and be clear that no function of the prophetic gift (as one of the spiritual gifts) subsequent to the NT can equal, supersede, or be an addition to its unique witness. It must be in agreement, so all claims to the prophetic gift must be tested by the Scriptures (1 Thess 5:19-21; 1 John 4:1-3; Matt 7:15-20).

A postcanonical manifestation of the prophetic gift-
1. Will point back to Holy Scripture as the basis of faith and practice.
2. Will illumine and clarify teachings already present in Scripture.
3. Will apply the principles of Scripture to the daily life.
4. May be a catalyst to direct the church to carry out its commission as charged in the Scriptures.
5. May assist in establishing the church.
6. May reprove, warn, instruct, encourage, build up, and unify the church in the truths of Scripture.
7. May function to protect the church from false doctrine and to establish believers in the true.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Judas also knew Jesus first hand. What did that account to?

Dudly Canwright was received back 3 times when he repented. That didn't sound to me that he was attacked and slandered. It sounds like the Adventist church was quite lenient and compassioned with him. The door was left open for him until he final left and became a (sunday) Baptist pastor. So it sounded he erred.

Canwright not only attacked EGW on the dotrines, he also attacked on personal characters. However he was among the chief mourners at her funeral. So it also sounds like he was a very inconsistant person.

Furthermore, the fact that the church allowed him to attend EGW's funeral shows the church handled the situation properly.

http://www.ellenwhite.org/
http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/egw16.htm

http://www.truthorfables.com/
http://www.truthorfables.com/canwright

http://www.ex-sda.com/
http://www.ex-sda.com/experience-DMC.htm


DL Where do you get your information. first DM Canwrignt was never disfelloshiped, where is your source on that. nothing in the SdA writing ever said he was disfelloshiped. He quit the ministery 3 times. but never left the chruch. He quit because he did not beleve EGW to be a prophet. other also left the ministery J.N. Lougborugh, and G.I. Butler also left the ministery because they had seasons of doubht, to name a few, but they were not consider heritics, His fault lie in that he beleved the SDA doctirne, was prominate in the chruch and became unconvined and had the integrety to say I don't believe it and leave. It was only after they labled him an Apostate, the war bagan. then because of the trashing they gave him. he fought back. exposing every weekness he could find.

DL You and i have been thourgh this before. I would appreciate if you would be accurate in your information. you are a Big EGW backer while I favor her writing and I do ,I am not completely blind to the fact that there are major thing that honest people look at and scratch there head and say I don't get it. the "shut door theroy" where was the prophet then? "the failed prediction of christ's retrun and thoes today being alive will see him. they are all dead now" how do you answer that. i thought that one of the test was if it come to pass then the person is a prophet.

As far as DM canwright attacking EGW character. if he knew her to lie like he states he did. then his attack is valid. you are coming from the stand point of a beliver and disciple one who has already made up his mind.

I must ask you this question have you even read the statment leveled by the critics? . If you have not then you have no business making statements about him or his character. as far as consistancey the reports you gave only give the SDA perspective which may not be accurate, you are also looking from the outside and not what the man was thinking internally. The only way to know what he was think was to read what he said.

The fact that he was reported to have said that "she was a fine Christian Woman" dose not mean it really happened and dose not mean she was a prophet. she could have thought she was a prophet and was not really a prophet. That is How she could have been "a fine christian woman". Notice he is not reported to have said she was a prophet. If he became unconvined that she was not a prophet what would you expect him to do, be quite about it? and how would you expect him to respond if attack about it be Happy hey this feel great. I like this? No you fight back and complain. the assumption, that she is prophet, is truth. He reached a diffenent conclusion like many others. that does not make him a bad person. It may make him wrong, but not a bad person.

 

[OntheDL]

DL Where do you get your information. first DM Canwrignt was never disfelloshiped, where is your source on that. nothing in the SdA writing ever said he was disfelloshiped. He quit the ministery 3 times. but never left the chruch. He quit because he did not beleve EGW to be a prophet. other also left the ministery J.N. Lougborugh, and G.I. Butler also left the ministery because they had seasons of doubht, to name a few, but they were not consider heritics, His fault lie in that he beleved the SDA doctirne, was prominate in the chruch and became unconvined and had the integrety to say I don't believe it and leave. It was only after they labled him an Apostate, the war bagan. then because of the trashing they gave him. he fought back. exposing every weekness he could find.

Where did I say he was disfellowshipped? I said he left 3 times then repented and was received back. Did it sound like I said here he was disfellowshipped?

Trash they gave him? The church received him every time he came back.

DL You and i have been thourgh this before. I would appreciate if you would be accurate in your information. you are a Big EGW backer while I favor her writing and I do ,I am not completely blind to the fact that there are major thing that honest people look at and scratch there head and say I don't get it. the "shut door theroy" where was the prophet then? "the failed prediction of christ's retrun and thoes today being alive will see him. they are all dead now" how do you answer that. i thought that one of the test was if it come to pass then the person is a prophet. ' what excuse erh reason to you come up with to explain that away.

What you charge EGW with was before EGW received her first vision before SDA denomination even came to existence. The remnant of the Millerites realized their initial errors in interpreting 'cleansing of the sanctuary' passage and came to the understanding the typical day of atonement service. That argument is irrelavent because 'we' don't interprete it the way Millerites did.

'For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.' ---SM p62.

As far as DM canwright attacking EGW character. if he knew her to lie like he states he did. then his attack is valid. you are coming from the stand point of a beliver and disciple one who has already made up his mind.

By your own logic, then the Carrie Johnson report "I was Canright's secretary" is also valid.

I must ask you this question have you even read the statment leveled by the critics? your statment reflect igonrance of the issuses rased. If you have not then you have no business making statements about him or his character. as far as consistancey the reports you gave only give the SDA perspective which may not be accurate, you are also looking from the outside and not what the man was thinking internally. The only way to know what he was think was to read what he said.

The fact that he was reported to have said that "she was a fine Christian Woman" dose not mean it really happened and dose not mean she was a prophet. she could have thought she was a prophet and was not really a prophet. That is How she could have been "a fine christian woman". Notice he is not reported to have said she was a prophet. If he became unconvined that she was not a prophet what would you expect him to do, be quite about it? and how would you expect him to respond if attack about it be Happy hey this feel great. I like this? No you fight back and complain. the assumption, that she is prophet, is truth. He reached a diffenent conclusion like many others. that does not make him a bad person. It may make him wrong, but not a bad person.

I'm not interested in if Canright believed EGW was a prophet. I can make my own conclusions.

But the fact is that the SDA church received him when he came back and allowed him to attend EGW, it seems to me SDAs handled it properly.

Now I look at Canright's life after he finally left the church, he renounced the sabbath truth and went to work for a sunday church (Baptist). Did he find true light or did he fall into darkness?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

When someone backslid like Canright did, then everything he used to justify his backsliding is questionable.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Judas also knew Jesus first hand. What did that account to?

Dudly Canwright was received back 3 times when he repented. That didn't sound to me that he was attacked and slandered. It sounds like the Adventist church was quite lenient and compassioned with him. The door was left open for him until he final left and became a (sunday) Baptist pastor. So it sounded he erred.

Canwright not only attacked EGW on the dotrines, he also attacked on personal characters. However he was among the chief mourners at her funeral. So it also sounds like he was a very inconsistant person.

Furthermore, the fact that the church allowed him to attend EGW's funeral shows the church handled the situation properly.

your are Right DL you did not "say" the word dishfelloshiped you "implied" it, to be recieve back assumes he left and he never left. He did not stop fellowhiping with the sda's or attending chruch, just stopped the professional ministery. sorry my bad for saying you said "disfellowshiped". In the futre please use language that is not vague and accuratel describes the conditions

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Where did I say he was disfellowshipped? I said he left 3 times then repented and was received back. Did it sound like I said here he was disfellowshipped?

Trash they gave him? The church received him every time he came back.


What you charge EGW with was before EGW received her first vision before SDA denomination even came to existence. The remnant of the Millerites realized their initial errors in interpreting 'cleansing of the sanctuary' passage and came to the understanding the typical day of atonement service. That argument is irrelavent because 'we' don't interprete it the way Millerites did.

'For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.' ---SM p62.


By your own logic, then the Carrie Johnson report "I was Canright's secretary" is also valid.



I'm not interested in if Canright believed EGW was a prophet. I can make my own conclusions.

But the fact is that the SDA church received him when he came back and allowed him to attend EGW, it seems to me SDAs handled it properly.

Now I look at Canright's life after he finally left the church, he renounced the sabbath truth and went to work for a sunday church (Baptist). Did he find true light or did he fall into darkness?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

When someone backslid like Canright did, then everything he used to justify his backsliding is questionable.

as far as "canwrith's secetary goes", the point is that "facts" are often interpeted. There is also evidence that suggests "canwrights sectary" is not even true, that it was made up She was not well known, she "says" she had contact with him, when eveidence suggests he was shown to be living in a completely different city 20 to 40 miles away. back then they did not get around like be do, that was a long ways ,a day at least maybe even more. No one saw him when he was there, and there is NO record of Him ever being in the location that she say he was in.

Remember The SDA chruch was new and young and had many problem. canwrigts own statment tell us why he left

As far as to the law and the testimont go. The context is upon recieveing messages from the dead. they sould be tested that is the point. That sould be also applied to EGW and Adventist are so defensive about that.

You miss the point of the "shut door" EGW did not make up the shut door, but went into vision on the Shut door. and said salvation was lost to anyone who was not part of them millerite movement. and had to revise the vision over and over again. it was eventually drop, but why would it need to be changed or dropped? she is a prophet right? why would God send her a misleading message. that is the problem with the Shut door theroy. not that it was pre or post SdA fromation.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

DL

If you would have read the statments made by Canwright. you would know that he started having doubhts about EGW at age 24. he had problem whith the fact that when ever there was a problem in the Chruch with the Leadership of james white that EGW "ALWAYS" sided with her husband,"ALWAYS" No leader should "ALWAYS" be sided with. He also had a problem with the fact the the most educated and the best in the denomination were reciving rebukes "testimonies" from and uneducated little girl. Her opinion always was the last word. He also had a problem with the fact the there were "contradiction" in her writings. He had a blow out session with EGW and James White in colorado in the mid 1870's because he had seen others have to "bow" at the foot of EGW, as he put it. And said that he was not going to Go through that, like he had see others do. He also stated that the straw that broke the camels back was the "law in Galations" controversy that later became the "1888 message" or the "righteousness by faith message". He saw this as a change in the message the chuch was teaching. Prior to 1888 they taught "the Law until they were dryer then hills of gilboah" as EGW puts it. she confirms a change in the message and the problem is that Canwright was the Guy that was preaching the Law making everything dry and now she changed the message on him in midstream. He says she had done this to others and now it was happining to Him, He was fed up so he restudied and then did the honarable thing and left. After he was gone and could not have a voice to defend himself the Labled Him and "Apostate" ostricised Him and that is when the fight began. Canwright himself says that most of his SDA brethern treated him well just not the Leadership. Canwright had to repeatedly make offically notrized statment repudiating the statment made by the officals. including the he was lost or that he reqretted leaving.

I was struck as I read canwrights Sectary how little people were concerned for Canwriths well being or reputation. This guy had 2 childern die on him and a wife die on him. He wanted to settle down but constantly had to fight for the adventist, he was the man the called when they wanted to debate, then when they switch gears on him he said for get it. everthing after Canwright left was a reaction to What the sda leaders said about him. the don't lable him and "apostate" they don't have a fight. The SDA Leadership wanted a fight and the got it. Other have left and there was not this problem. why the difference with canwritght? he just would not take the thrashing or be quiet.

 

[reddogs]

Seems like he wanted someone to side with him, and if they didnt he had a 'tantrum'......

 

[OntheDL]

DL

If you would have read the statments made by Canwright. you would know that he started having doubhts about EGW at age 24. he had problem whith the fact that when ever there was a problem in the Chruch with the Leadership of james white that EGW "ALWAYS" sided with her husband,"ALWAYS" No leader should "ALWAYS" be sided with. He also had a problem with the fact the the most educated and the best in the denomination were reciving rebukes "testimonies" from and uneducated little girl. Her opinion always was the last word. He also had a problem with the fact the there were "contradiction" in her writings. He had a blow out session with EGW and James White in colorado in the mid 1870's because he had seen others have to "bow" at the foot of EGW, as he put it. And said that he was not going to Go through that, like he had see others do. He also stated that the straw that broke the camels back was the "law in Galations" controversy that later became the "1888 message" or the "righteousness by faith message". He saw this as a change in the message the chuch was teaching. Prior to 1888 they taught "the Law until they were dryer then hills of gilboah" as EGW puts it. she confirms a change in the message and the problem is that Canwright was the Guy that was preaching the Law making everything dry and now she changed the message on him in midstream. He says she had done this to others and now it was happining to Him, He was fed up so he restudied and then did the honarable thing and left. After he was gone and could not have a voice to defend himself the Labled Him and "Apostate" ostricised Him and that is when the fight began. Canwright himself says that most of his SDA brethern treated him well just not the Leadership. Canwright had to repeatedly make offically notrized statment repudiating the statment made by the officals. including the he was lost or that he reqretted leaving.

I was struck as I read canwrights Sectary how little people were concerned for Canwriths well being or reputation. This guy had 2 childern die on him and a wife die on him. He wanted to settle down but constantly had to fight for the adventist, he was the man the called when they wanted to debate, then when they switch gears on him he said for get it. everthing after Canwright left was a reaction to What the sda leaders said about him. the don't lable him and "apostate" they don't have a fight. The SDA Leadership wanted a fight and the got it. Other have left and there was not this problem. why the difference with canwritght? he just would not take the thrashing or be quiet.

From the things you wrote that I could make out, Canright sounded like a rebellious child who did not get his wish of wanting more toys.

I don't want to be disrespectful. But from what you just wrote, I don't know if you can comprehend the true issues.

You brought into the distorted version of what happened in 1888. The true 1888 conflict is even close to what they made it out to be. But that's beyond the scope of this conversation.

Well, have you read Canright's book Seventh-day Adventism Renounced?

In his book, he devoted more than a third of the book (chapter 9 to chapter 16) to dispute the Sabbath truth and advocated Sunday as the day of worship for Christians.

You need to understand he did not discover true light. He rejected the truth.

 

[djconklin]

>as far as "canwrith's secetary goes", the point is that "facts" are often interpeted. There is also evidence that suggests "canwrights sectary" is not even true, that it was made up She was not well known, she "says" she had contact with him, when eveidence suggests he was shown to be living in a completely different city 20 to 40 miles away.

Could you supply us with the evidence rather than claim it?

 

[djconklin]

>your are Right DL you did not "say" the word dishfelloshiped you "implied" it, to be recieve back assumes he left and he never left.

PMJI, but I just re-examined the relevant posts and it was never even implied that Canright was "disfellowshipped."

 

[Adventist Heretic]

>your are Right DL you did not "say" the word dishfelloshiped you "implied" it, to be recieve back assumes he left and he never left.

PMJI, but I just re-examined the relevant posts and it was never even implied that Canright was "disfellowshipped."

As far as the supplying evidence for "canwright sectary." goes you are presenting the idea that it is valid, so the burden of proof is on you not me. . try and see what you come up with. I have yet to find any info that show that to be true., but to appease you here you go. You probally won't read it anyway's http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/secretary.htm I've shown you mine, now you show me your's.

Carrie Johnson "the secetary" says in the book she was told to keep it quiet and that no one knew. Hum. no evediece. If you would have read the links above you would have know that Canwright live in Ostego, Mi and worked for the Baptist chruch there. it is 46.5 miles from ostego to battle creek. he also was reported to have the secteary when he live in Grand Rapids. do you know how far it is from GR to BC it over 80 miles. by horse and buggy that is a long ways almost 3 days travel. that is like driving in a car half way across the us, using today's automoblile.

I find it intresting that Canwright was called on to defend the SDA doctrines and was rebuked for not being leinient on people, because it take time for people to see "ourviews" , told that he needed to give more patience with the people and more room for differing opinions ,then when he had a different opionon was "hammered" for it. again you would know that if you read the link above.

As far as a rebellious child goes that is "classic Adventist" reasoning, if you can't win an argument attack the person. hum.

As to the issue of why he rejected the sabbath. He over reacted. people tend to do that. in his rejection of EGW he "threw the baby out with the bath water."he was under attack and fought back. It does not excuse it, but he is human after all. In this examination of the Role of EGW White we are not saying the The Sabbath is invalad that is clear, the State of the dead is clear, the second coming is clear. What is not clear is was EGW a prophet or not, was 1844 the start of the "day of Atonemnt." or not. WE are testing the claim the EGW was prophet and are concerned because she keeps coming up on the short in of the stick.

Let me ask you this.
Can a person be a good christian and and not accept EGW? Yes or No

Can a person be a good SDA and not accept EGW as a prophet. Yes or No

If you answer YES to either of those you do not have the same mindset as those alive at the time of EGW. If you did not accept the prophet you were considered a heritic. so let me ask you if you. Where would a person go if he became unconvince of the Prophetic gift of EGW? there aren't many other places to find work if you are a Former SDA pastor, now is there.

 

[OntheDL]

talk about hair splitting. you guys are impossible. to say recieved back is to say that he left. the 2 go together. wow you guys just take what ever the demoninations says.

As far as the supplying evidence for "canwright sectary." goes you are presenting the idea that it is valid, so the burden of proof is on you not me. you prove she was there. I dare you. try and see what you come up with. I have yet to find any info that show that to be true.

Carrie Johnson "the secetary" says in the book she was told to keep it quiet and that no one knew. Hum. no evediece. If you would have read the links above you would have know that Canwright live in Ostego, Mi and worked for the Baptist chruch there. it is 46.5 miles from ostego to battle creek. I find it intresting that Canwright was called on to defend the SDA doctrines was rebuked for not being leinient on people, because it take time for people to see "ourviews" , told that he needed to give more patience with the people and more room for differing opinions ,then when he had a different opionon was "hammered" for it. again you would know that if you read the link above.

As far as a rebellious child goes that is "classic Adventist" reasoning, if you can't win an argument attack the person. hum.

Let me ask you this.
Can a person be a good christian and and not accept EGW? Yes or No

Can a person be a good SDA and not accept EGW as a prophet. Yes or No

If you answer Yes to either of those you do not have the same mindset as those alive at the time of EGW. If you did not accept the prophet you were considered a heritic. so let me ask you if you. Where would a person go if he became unconvince of the Prophetic gift of EGW? there aren't many other places to find work if you are a Former SDA pastor, no is there.

Use the story of the prodigal son as an example. The bible says he left and then when he returned, he was received back. So did the bible imply he was disfellowshipped?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

http://www.ellenwhite.org/
http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/egw16.htm

http://www.truthorfables.com/
http://www.truthorfables.com/canwright

http://www.ex-sda.com/
http://www.ex-sda.com/experience-DMC.htm


Yea these are the links I was talking about.