Why Create Us?

[ananda]

Why do you think desire is imperfection?

It means that the individual who desires feels incomplete, and seeks out something else to add to their self/nature.

Or, in other words, the complete, perfect being would be complete in himself, and would possess no desire for anything else. To add or subtract from his completion would mean imperfection.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This part of the story doesnt make a lick of sense.

Personally, I don't think it's incumbent for Christians to hold exclusively to an "Exclusivist" position, all things considered both inside the Bible on the whole and outside of it. To say that Christians have to subscribe to this position and this position alone begs a whole lot of additional philosophical and theological questions.

 

[Resha Caner]

Should we trust everything we read & hear from others?

Of course not.

How do you determine when to trust, and when not to trust?

It's different for every subject and every object that subject trusts, so I can't answer the general question. Are you interested in comparing you and me? If so, I'd suggest picking something we both trust.

 

[ananda]

Of course not.

It's different for every subject and every object that subject trusts, so I can't answer the general question. Are you interested in comparing you and me? If so, I'd suggest picking something we both trust.

For myself, it involves degrees of trust.

For very important subjects, I require high degrees of verification. For less important subjects, I require less.

Therefore, when it comes to the subject regarding the highest good, should we not demand for ourselves the highest degree of verification?

 

[Resha Caner]

For very important subjects, I require high degrees of verification. For less important subjects, I require less.

That more or less agrees with what I said. I've got no problem with it.

Therefore, when it comes to the subject regarding the highest good, should we not demand for ourselves the highest degree of verification?

"Highest good" wasn't the OPs question. So, where do you get that from? Regardless, if that's the topic you want to compare between the two of us ... OK. You picked the hardest one to start with.

From my theological position, trusting the "highest good" is nearly tautological.

 

[renniks]

It means that the individual who desires feels incomplete, and seeks out something else to add to their self/nature.

Or, in other words, the complete, perfect being would be complete in himself, and would possess no desire for anything else. To add or subtract from his completion would mean imperfection.

Why can't a perfect being, be perfectly content, but desire to create other beings for the purpose of having fellowship with them, for their benefit? Desire does not necessarily mean one is incomplete. Seems like God would not create at all if he didn't have any desires.

 

[ananda]

That more or less agrees with what I said. I've got no problem with it.



"Highest good" wasn't the OPs question. So, where do you get that from? Regardless, if that's the topic you want to compare between the two of us ... OK. You picked the hardest one to start with.

From my theological position, trusting the "highest good" is nearly tautological.

Well, "God" for many is the "highest good".

It may be tautalogical, but different paths propose different "highest good"s.

 

[ananda]

Why can't a perfect being, be perfectly content, but desire to create other beings for the purpose of having fellowship with them, for their benefit? Desire does not necessarily mean one is incomplete. Seems like God would not create at all if he didn't have any desires.

Why would a perfectly content, perfect being need fellowship (for their benefit or his), if he is already perfectly content & perfect in and of himself?

 

[renniks]

Why would a perfectly content, perfect being need fellowship (for their benefit or his), if he is already perfectly content & perfect in and of himself?

Desire doesn't necessarily imply neediness. I desire chocolate, but I certainly don't need it.

 

[ananda]

Desire doesn't necessarily imply neediness. I desire chocolate, but I certainly don't need it.

I'll amend that to "need or want"

 

[Resha Caner]

Well, "God" for many is the "highest good".

Indeed. The Lutheran definition of a god is that from which we are to expect all good and to which we are to take refuge in all distress.

It may be tautalogical, but different paths propose different "highest good"s.

Yes. Per the definition above, Lutheranism acknowledges that others have other gods. We just don't believe those gods are Christ, nor can they bestow life with Christ. The best thing I know is my god. It can't be anything else because I don't know anything else. The degree to which I trust that god is the degree to which I think it is good.

 

[ananda]

Indeed. The Lutheran definition of a god is that from which we are to expect all good and to which we are to take refuge in all distress.

Yes. Per the definition above, Lutheranism acknowledges that others have other gods. We just don't believe those gods are Christ, nor can they bestow life with Christ. The best thing I know is my god. It can't be anything else because I don't know anything else. The degree to which I trust that god is the degree to which I think it is good.

Do you think it is good because you verified that it is good, or for some other reason?

 

[Resha Caner]

Do you think it is good because you verified that it is good, or for some other reason?

Christ has been good to me. "Verify" is a loaded word. I make no claim that the reasons I think Christ is good to me will meet your verification criteria, whatever they may be. Nor do you have much chance of convincing me Christ hasn't been good to me. Hence my suggestion we make some comparisons ... and preferably starting with a simpler object.

 

[ananda]

Christ has been good to me. "Verify" is a loaded word. I make no claim that the reasons I think Christ is good to me will meet your verification criteria, whatever they may be. Nor do you have much chance of convincing me Christ hasn't been good to me. Hence my suggestion we make some comparisons ... and preferably starting with a simpler object.

Sure ... how about various books of scripture from various religions?

 

[renniks]

I'll amend that to "need or want"

God can't want things? According to scripture, he can and does.

Matthew 9:13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

And all throughout scripture, it's clear that God desires relationship with people. Otherwise, why does he become upset or angry when they follow false gods?

 

[Resha Caner]

Sure ... how about various books of scripture from various religions?

Hmm. That's only marginally simpler, but we can give it a shot. Do you have a book in mind?

 

[ananda]

God can't want things? According to scripture, he can and does.

Matthew 9:13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

And all throughout scripture, it's clear that God desires relationship with people. Otherwise, why does he become upset or angry when they follow false gods?

I'm not saying that the god of the bible doesn't want/desires/gets upset/angry/etc.

I'm saying that - according to my observation - perfection implies the lack of need for anything (no wants, desires, etc.).

 

[dlamberth]

I really like this. Please elaborate.

The thought goes something like this. Pure intelligence needs ways to be aware. The Creation of this physical world provides those ways. The Human Creation goes a step further in that we are able to be aware of the Divine source. Thus it's through Human Beings that God is able to be aware of Himself.

 

[ananda]

Hmm. That's only marginally simpler, but we can give it a shot. Do you have a book in mind?

How did you come to trust your chosen scripture?

 

[Resha Caner]

How did you come to trust your chosen scripture?

Remember, we're comparing. My "chosen scripture" would, obviously, be the Bible. But I'm guessing that is not your chosen scripture. So how will we compare? Do you have a scripture you trust? Then we could compare my trust in mine vs your trust in yours.