Why Create Us?

[dlamberth]

So that He could be aware of Himself.

 

[Not David]

So that He could be aware of Himself.

Explain please?

 

[MarkusAurelius]

@Greengardener
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I’m sure you are right in that there might be more than the way I’ve been taught God. I’m genuinely hoping this is the case. Thus far, I have neither found nor been presented with evidence sufficient to warrant my belief in the claim that a God exists. Concerning reading the Bible, reading it is actually one of the things that led me away from Christianity. I’ve read it cover to cover in various versions (book nerd & former Barnes & Noble employee ). If my apartment caught fire and I could grab something besides my cat, I’d be reaching for my guitar with one hand and my favorite Bible with the other. To this day, I still hold scripture in very high regard (and continue to commit it to memory) as that and the cosmological argument were my last bastions of belief as I attempted to hold fast to my faith. There are many wonderful, edifying, and beautiful things contained in the pages of the Bible and I guess those are the things I’m trying to focus on. The good instead of bad. The actual instead of assertion. The “I don’t know” instead of willful ignorance. I know this sounds contentious but please hear me out. If we are honestly seeking truth, attempting to fill gaps in our knowledge with some variation of, “God did it,” serves only as a reason to stop looking for explanations. I’m currently of the mindset that presuppositions, emotional appeals, and experiential evidence can and are all used as evidence for multiple god concepts. This leads me to believe those methodologies can be dismissed as unreliable means of arriving at truth. I will continue to search the scriptures with an open mind and welcome any guidance you or anyone else has to offer. I just hope no one takes offense if I have tred the path they suggest and point out why I didn’t see the trees the same way. That’s why I’m here, first and foremost to seek answers and secondly, to point out when and where the answers I have encountered fell short in my estimation in hopes those who believe can better understand those of us who have lost the ability to believe and vice versa.

Side note: Fellow unbelievers, your short, snarky (although, admittedly, sometimes humorous) comments aren’t helpful. Take a moment to honestly assess your reasons for posting before so doing.

Also, sorry. Not an English major and I don’t think I understand how commas work!

 

[MarkusAurelius]

What you are saying is you would not be able to make good use of such a tragic thing.

But God has used the murder of His own Son for such great good for us who have trusted in Jesus.

And He is doing the best thing He can, by processing evil to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. And there are people, yes, who are serving as vessels for carrying evil's filthy spirit to where it will be kept. This is why we are told to be purified, by God, of any anti-love things in us >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, part of why God created people is so He has vessels for organizing things of evil into the flaming sewer.

Plus > Romans 8:29. And you can read what Jesus has claimed in prayer for those who receive His word > John 17.

Forgive me, but I’m not sure I understand. “Make good of such a tragic thing.” In what way is making beings God doesn’t need in the first place that are vessels predestined for destruction good? Also, according to the Christian doctrine I’m familiar with, Yeshua is alive and risen. I thought about that and can’t see how it’s much of a sacrifice if he’s only dead 3 days. And since he’s 100% man & 100% God, which aspect of him died? If the human part, how was that an all atoning sacrifice the author of Hebrews writes about? If the God part, God isn’t omnipotent because God’s death at any moment would render him imperfect.

 

[MarkusAurelius]

So that He could be aware of Himself.

I really like this. Please elaborate.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I really like this. Please elaborate.

Here is Babylon 5 version of it. Just substitute God for Universe and you are good to go.

TLDR

Delenn:
We believe that the universe itself is conscious in a way that we can never truly understand. It is engaged in a search for meaning. So it breaks itself apart, investing its own consciousness in every form of life. We are the universe trying to understand itself.

 

[gaara4158]

God created us and his omniscience entails he knew a vast number would accept Christ and end up in Heaven and a vast number would not accept Christ and end up in Hell. God does not need us. Why then, did God create us?

You’re not allowed to ask that! Just say “thank you” and get to work!

 

[miggles]

He initially didn't want to create us. but adam and eve are the reason we are here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God created us and his omniscience entails he knew a vast number would accept Christ and end up in Heaven and a vast number would not accept Christ and end up in Hell. God does not need us. Why then, did God create us?

Are you intending to ask an axiological question or an epistemological one? Because if it is the latter, this question belongs in the Christian Apologetics section and not in the Ethics & Morality section.

Of course, if I were to venture to address your post, I'd first guess that if you have the smarts to realize the truths which are embedded in your first statement and you have done so by having read the Bible, then you could also have at least come across the reasons, whether they are direct or implied, that the N.T. writers give us indication of in explaining "why" the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has done what it is He has done in "creating us."

 

[ananda]

Why does it have to be desire? Maybe it's just His nature to create things.

Either we stick to what is observable & known (creativity is motivated by desire), or we venture into the realm of imagination where anything goes.

 

[zephcom]

God created us and his omniscience entails he knew a vast number would accept Christ and end up in Heaven and a vast number would not accept Christ and end up in Hell. God does not need us. Why then, did God create us?

Do remember that is a story which began as an ancient oral tradition and a thousand years later became an ancient written tradition.

There is no evidence that it represents any action or behavior of the actual God. Throughout the history of the human race humans repeatedly create stories about 'God' which various tribes are expected to believe are true.

 

[Resha Caner]

Either we stick to what is observable & known (creativity is motivated by desire), or we venture into the realm of imagination where anything goes.

That's a fair point, and may render the question unanswerable, because I'm not sure the Bible ever gives a reason. But I think the underlying point of some replies is that we can't assume other beings are the same as us. So, while our creativity may be motivated by desire, we can't assume that of other beings. As such, it can only come when they communicate with us and reveal themselves to us.

 

[com7fy8]

In what way is making beings God doesn’t need in the first place that are vessels predestined for destruction good?

God does things with order. So, He has made vessels for carrying the spirit of evil's filth to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

And of course this is not good for anyone who is volunteering to be a vessel of unforgiveness and lusts for foolish pleasures, which are going to the flaming sewer.

Jesus wants us to become children of God's love, instead. And so, Jesus suffered and died like He did, in order to bring us to God. But there are people who feel they are too good for such a caring Person, like Jesus. And their conceit is going to the flaming sewer, with them or without them.

God is able to change a person out of his or her conceit and lusts and unforgiveness, and change any person into being a child of His love.

Jesus so suffered like He did, I would say, partly because Jesus knows about hell; so He considered it worthwhile to suffer like that, in order to make sure we don't go there. But conceit can have people supposing they don't need Jesus and feeling they are too good for Him. And they make their conceit and logic and arguing their god . . . not wise.

We can be personal with God Himself, in His love.

Now I offer you I can explain any of this, using various scripture and logic. But this can be like explaining for days about how you are welcome to come to a wedding feast, even though you are outdoor homeless and smelly. The King wants you to come!!! But you say there can't be a King, because there are homeless people. But He says to come so you can be at home with God in His love. But you argue how can there be love, if there is evil? There is good, in spite of the evil. Evil is not all there is.

But we need how God changes us in our character so we become capable of experiencing Him, and no amount of arguing and logic can change this. We need how God changes us. And the Bible talks about all God does in His children > every command is related to how God has us become so we can do His love meaning; then with God we become able to do the best things to overcome evil . . . what really works, not only now but for eternity >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

It is wise not to let evil decide what you think about God. Because evil has things set up to make God look bad; this is how horrible Satan and his spirit of evil is.

This is why there is a jail . . . so bad doers can't come to mess up the wedding. And they are so stubborn and clever that only fire can control them.

 

[com7fy8]

I thought about that and can’t see how it’s much of a sacrifice if he’s only dead 3 days.

It's a quality not quantity thing. We humans can suffer for decades and suppose this makes our sacrifice a great thing. But how are we being while suffering all that time? Ones can be bitter and nasty and negative.

But Jesus suffered kindly and sweetly, so well that it was enough. The quality of His love and obedience is what mattered, not only the quantity of the suffering or time in the grave.

And this is our example. God has us loving like Jesus, more and more as He corrects our character and has us growing in Jesus >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Jesus on Calvary was sweet-smelling, through it all. So, I now understand, Jesus pleased our Father to reconcile with us. We could not die right for our own sins; so Jesus came to our level, as much as He could, I would say, in order to reach us and win us to God.

And God our Father is so pleased with Jesus, that He desires to have many children like Jesus. So, I see how Jesus on the cross was being a celebration to God, of how God can have us all become pleasing and delighting to Him as His children, if He forgives us and reconciles with us and then changes us to also be like Jesus.

And this was His plan, all along > Romans 8:29.

So, this is destiny. I trust that even God can not change what is really true and what really is going to happen.

So, no matter how any of us may see things or argue things > we will find out.

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Matthew 11:28-30)

Jesus knows what is true; no amount of arguing and accusing God can change what really is true and what really will happen. So, Jesus simply calls us to salvation and rest in sharing with Him and one another as God's family.

 

[ananda]

That's a fair point, and may render the question unanswerable, because I'm not sure the Bible ever gives a reason. But I think the underlying point of some replies is that we can't assume other beings are the same as us. So, while our creativity may be motivated by desire, we can't assume that of other beings. As such, it can only come when they communicate with us and reveal themselves to us.

Wouldn't you agree that such a position is only useful if we have a way to verify for ourselves that they are telling the truth about things beyond our own existing experience?

 

[Resha Caner]

Wouldn't you agree that such a position is only useful if we have a way to verify for ourselves that they are telling the truth about things beyond our own existing experience?

Trust is an important element, but it's not necessary to verify everything ourselves (depending on what exactly you mean by that). In fact, it's impossible.

 

[com7fy8]

And since he’s 100% man & 100% God, which aspect of him died? If the human part, how was that an all atoning sacrifice the author of Hebrews writes about? If the God part, God isn’t omnipotent because God’s death at any moment would render him imperfect.

I understand that Jesus dying simply means He stopped outwardly appearing to live on this earth. So, it was His body which stopped being alive.

But how Jesus is is what made the atonement possible. It was how He died which matters > how Jesus spiritually on the cross was "a sweet-smelling aroma" > again, see Ephesians 5:2.

It's like how somebody says, "Thank you." The action of the thanking is not what you like, but how you know the person really means it . . . how the person is while doing it. Like this, how Jesus was being while dying is what mattered to our Father.

How might any of us be while dying for our own sins? It "might" not help "much", right? But Jesus died right, for us.

So, yes God did not actually die. This, also, would mean God changed, and James 1:13 and James 1:17 help me to see how God can not change.

So, a valuable demonstration of the resurrection is it shows Jesus never was stopped by all that evil. He was whipped and wounded and nailed and killed, but then He came up more glorious than how His body showed while He lived on this earth before Calvary. Jesus resurrected still had His wounds, but those wounds turned out to have no effect once He was raised from the dead.

So, you're right that God could not actually die, Himself.

Now, like I say, the Bible does not spell this out; so I am offering what I am learning. Most of all, in any case, is to see how all this can help me to live in love. I can see how God is almighty love; so in me He can easily and breezily and beautifully keep me safe from how evil would influence and effect me, while also keeping me busy with caring and sharing while enjoying and appreciating Him making us like this in His grace which is almighty. His love makes us now resurrectional, like this, plus we grow more and more in this love.

Like how Jesus rose from the dead, after all that evil, with God we also can go through anything but come out with more and better ! ! ! Mainly, I now am finding, we come out to better and better loving of any and all people, and this is in growing intimacy and personal sharing with God who has us growing and maturing like this.

So, more than explanation, we can have God's demonstration in us.

 

[durangodawood]

God created us and his omniscience entails he knew a vast number would accept Christ and end up in Heaven and a vast number would not accept Christ and end up in Hell. God does not need us. Why then, did God create us?

This part of the story doesnt make a lick of sense.

 

[renniks]

The only comprehensible conclusion is that such a deity is driven by desire, and thus imperfect.

Why do you think desire is imperfection?

 

[ananda]

Trust is an important element, but it's not necessary to verify everything ourselves (depending on what exactly you mean by that). In fact, it's impossible.

Should we trust everything we read & hear from others? How do you determine when to trust, and when not to trust?